[TTC Study] Chapter 28 of the Tao Teh Ching

[ion]

Gramatically speaking, humble is an adjective; humility is a noun.

 

Humble means having meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit.

 

Humility is the state or condition of being humble.

 

A humble person is one who has humility.

[dust]

 

Gramatically speaking, humble is an adjective; humility is a noun.

 

Humble means having meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit.

 

Humility is the state or condition of being humble.

 

A humble person is one who has humility.

 

They are cognates, but in modern English humility and humiliation are not the same.

 

humility: a modest or low view of one's own importance

humiliate: make (someone) feel ashamed and foolish by injuring their dignity and self-respect, especially publicly

[ion]

If the word injured were replaced (which it should be as a dictionary difinition if I'm getting called on grammar as a poster on an internet discussion forum) with something like the word compromised then I see the word interchangeble or at least apt in that it does not implied that you became humiliated, but remained in that staste, which would /should be defined differently.

 

Surely you should not feel shame for yourself as a state of being, however in keeping with the principle of remaining lowly wich implies lower then baseline, and goes along with the principle of stayin close to desolation, would it not be in accordance with Tao to remain as though humiliated?

 

Do even the humiliated feel asahmed of themselves? When humiliated the senses of self is greatly compromised and in question.

 

Humiliation comes without damaging injurying self respect. What is self respect in light of what is self? What humiliation is besides these subjective terms is when a persons ego gets sent for a whirl and they are left questioning their constructed identity which was made largely of lofty self assertions about the self based on such and such things that exist but are passing or do not exist but ar imagined..

 

I think when looked at from the angle that the Tao exists, then the word humiliated is a go, if looked at that the Tao is not, and so there is a self to which injury can be applied then maybe the word humiliated is not so good

[Marblehead]

I'm glad you have had thoughts on this.

 

For me:

 

Being humble has positive connotations,

Being humiliated has negative connotations.

[dust]

ion, my apologies. I haven't studied the Chinese text of this chapter closely yet, so I wasn't commenting on whether "humility" or "humiliation" is a better choice, I just wanted to point out that in English there is a difference.

 

Looking at the Chinese, I think I agree with your choice. All the meanings, past or present, I can find for 辱 are concerned with disgrace, shame, insult, dishonour, and humiliation -- not humility/humbleness.

[ion]

No apologies necessary dustybeijing Now I feel ashamed for making you feel you should apologies and feel like I should apologies for making you feel that way. I think this feeling ironicly touches on what we are talking about in regards to humble vs humiliated .

 

I must have seemed arrogant by being offended and jumping to my defense and it is that that shames and humiliates me; my own arrogance and defensiveness.

 

Now I am smiling so its all good

Edited September 18, 2014 by ion

[dust]

No apologies necessary dustybeijing Now I feel ashamed for making you feel you should apologies and feel like I should apologies for making you feel that way.

 

Don't !

I felt I should apologise because I hadn't been very clear or thorough with my comment.

 

 

I must have seemed arrogant by being offended and jumping to my defense and it is that that shames and humiliates me; my own arrogance and defensiveness.

 

Well..defensiveness is part of being human... I think one reason many of us are here discussing Dao and Zen and other things is that we're trying to be a little less defensive, let go of our egos... that's definitely one of the reasons I'm here. Don't be surprised if I get defensive in the future...

 

 

Now I am smiling so its all good

 

Me too

[beyonder]

Questions? Comments?

The Legge, Suzuki and Goddard translations can be found here: http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing28.php

 

I'll share some thoughts, though I don't know if they are true or not.

 

If you don't mind, I'll be going to be commenting on the Legge translation.

 

Let's look at the first part:

 

"Who knows his manhood's strength,

Yet still his female feebleness maintains;

As to one channel flow the many drains,

All come to him, yea, all beneath the sky."

 

Compare this with hexagram 16, line 2:

 

Hexagram 16, six in the second place means:

 

Firm as a rock. Not a whole day.

Perseverance brings good fortune.

 

This describes a person who does not allow himself to be misled by any illusions. While others are letting themselves be dazzled by enthusiasm, he recognizes with perfect clarity the first signs of the time. Thus he neither flatters those above nor neglects those beneath him; he is as firm as a rock. When the first sign of discord appears, he knows the right moment for withdrawing and does not delay even for a day. Perseverance in such conduct will bring good fortune. Confucius says about this line:

 

To know the seeds, that is divine indeed. In his association with those above him, the superior man does not flatter. In his association with those beneath him, he is not arrogant. For he knows the seeds. The seeds are the first imperceptible beginning of movement, the first trace of good fortune (or misfortune) that shows itself. The superior man perceives the seeds and immediately takes action. He does not wait even a whole day.

In the Book of Changes it is said:

 

"Firm as a rock. Not a whole day.

Perseverance brings good fortune."

 

Firm as a rock, what need of a whole day?

The judgment can be known.

The superior man knows what is hidden and what is evident.

He knows weakness, he knows strength as well.

Hence the myriads look up to him."

 

http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#16

 

Continuing on:

 

Thus he the constant excellence retains;

The simple child again, free from all stains.

 

I'll get back to this one, in a moment.

 

Who knows how white attracts,

Yet always keeps himself within black's shade,

The pattern of humility displayed,

Displayed in view of all beneath the sky;

He in the unchanging excellence arrayed,

Endless return to man's first state has made.

 

Who knows how glory shines,

Yet loves disgrace, nor e'er for it is pale;

Behold his presence in a spacious vale,

To which men come from all beneath the sky.

The unchanging excellence completes its tale;

The simple infant man in him we hail.

 

Having already discussed the notion of how the junzi knows both "weakness" and "strength", and how "the myriads look up to him", Laozi continues on with his discussion regarding the matter. He also introduced the concept of the "simple child", which is repeated as "man's first estate" and "the simple infant man". Let's take a look what the Zhuangzi (text) has to say 'bout that one:

 

"In the Grand Beginning (of all things) there was nothing in all the vacancy of space; there was nothing that could be named. It was in this state that there arose the first existence - the first existence, but still without bodily shape. From this things could then be produced, (receiving) what we call their proper character. That which had no bodily shape was divided; and then without intermission there was what we call the process of conferring. (The two processes) continuing in operation, things were produced. As things were completed, there were produced the distinguishing lines of each, which we call the bodily shape. That shape was the body preserving in it the spirit, and each had its peculiar manifestation, which we call its Nature. When the Nature has been cultivated, it returns to its proper character; and when that has been fully reached, there is the same condition as at the Beginning. That sameness is pure vacancy, and the vacancy is great. It is like the closing of the beak and silencing the singing (of a bird). That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness, but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning); it is the same as the Grand Submission (to the Natural Course)."

-"Zhuangzi", "Outter Chapters", "Heaven and Earth", 8

http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/heaven-and-earth

 

The I Ching has a hexagram dedicated to this notion, namely 25, "Innocence":

 

"Wu Wang / Innocence (The Unexpected)

 

above CH'IEN THE CREATIVE, HEAVEN

below CHêN THE AROUSING, THUNDER

 

Ch'ien, heaven is above; Chên, movement, is below. The lower trigram Chên is under the influence of the strong line it has received form above, from heaven. When, in accord with this, movement follows the law of heaven, man is innocent and without guile. His mind is natural and true, unshadowed by reflection or ulterior designs. For wherever conscious purpose is to be seen, there the truth and innocence of nature have been lost. Nature that is not directed by the spirit is not true but degenerate nature. Starting out with the idea of the natural, the train of thought in part goes somewhat further and thus the hexagram includes also the idea of the fundamental or unexpected.

 

THE JUDGMENT

 

INNOCENCE. Supreme success.

Perseverance furthers.

If someone is not as he should be,

He has misfortune,

And it does not further him

To undertake anything.

 

Man has received from heaven a nature innately good, to guide him in all his movements. By devotion to this divine spirit within himself, he attains an unsullied innocence that leads him to do right with instinctive sureness and without any ulterior thought of reward and personal advantage. This instinctive certainty brings about supreme success and 'furthers through perseverance". However, not everything instinctive is nature in this higher sense of the word, but only that which is right and in accord with the will of heaven. Without this quality of rightness, an unreflecting, instinctive way of acting brings only misfortune. Confucius says about this: "He who departs from innocence, what does he come to? Heaven's will and blessing do not go with his deeds."

http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#25

 

Right. On to the last bit... Don't worry, I'll keep it short:

 

The unwrought material, when divided and distributed, forms vessels. The sage, when employed, becomes the Head of all the Officers (of government); and in his greatest regulations he employs no violent measures.

 

I'm fairly certain he's referring to the emperors Yao, Shun and Yu, legendary figures in Chinese history, which are held in pretty high regard by daoists.

Edited September 18, 2014 by beyonder

[Marblehead]

Very nice analysis.

 

And yes, I recall reading something that suggested that much of the TTC is based in the I Ching so your comparison is fair, I think.

 

And yes, Chuang Tzu did try to define the "beginning" of the universe as deeply as his knowledge would take him.

 

And I agree that in this chapter we have both the concepts on Yin/Yang as well as Wu/Yo.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Marblehead

[woodcarver]

Know how to know... but don't!

[Marblehead]

Know how to know... but don't!

Yeah, that's a different way of saying it. I think that one would have to understand the concept before they could understand that though.

[woodcarver]

Yeah, that's a different way of saying it. I think that one would have to understand the concept before they could understand that though.

Damn concepts!

[woodcarver]

I honestly was just joking around, not trying to really say anything.

Edited September 22, 2014 by woodcarver

[Marblehead]

I honestly was just joking around, not trying to really say anything.

I do that too and many miss the joke.

 

Actually, I like concepts as they can be spoken to in many different ways and using greatly varying words.

 

Does anyone else see this chapter speaking to the concept of Wu Wei?

[woodcarver]

I guess I should end the self indulgence of joking around online.

[Marblehead]

I guess I should end the self indulgence of joking around online.

Oh, please don't. What would life be without a bit of humor?

 

Boring as hell, that's what.

[woodcarver]

Oh, please don't. What would life be without a bit of humor?

 

Boring as hell, that's what.

Alrighty, I just will try to not be the only one laughing

[Taoist Texts]

Chapter 28

 

 

 

When you know the male yet hold on to the female,

 

 

 

 

When you know the pure yet hold on to the soiled,

 

 

 

 

When you know the white yet hold on to the black,

 

 

 

 

 

Questions? 

My question would be - whats the deal with this 'know this hold that' construction?

Edited April 18, 2015 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

My question would be - whats the deal with this 'know this hold that' construction?

Fair question.  To hold "the female", "the soiled", and "the black", to me, means that we should hold ourself in a lower position than we hold others.  To know "the male", "the pure", and "the white" means that we hold ourself to these standards.

 

Now, let's not over analyze this because we could easily find discrimination here if we tried just a little.  But that's not what it's pointing at.  To me it is more at we are capable of taking whatever position necessary in order to do what needs be done.

 

Again, it is a compare/contrast between dualities.  Suggest that we don't hold a positiion that we will constantly be tested on.

 

Like the hobo said, "Leave me alone.  I'm happy being a hobo."

[flowing hands]

Hey let me put my transmission on here of this verse and upset the apple cart!

 

CHAPTER 28

 

In knowing a man's strength,

always keep a woman's care in your heart.

Be the stream of the Universe,

ever true and flowing, without preference.

Become simple, yielding and soft as a child.

 

Being the stream of the Universe,

be an example to the World; approach life with an open mind and an open heart.

 

Dwell in the infinite.

 

Have honour and respect,

but keep humility and be humble.

In simplicity and openness,

return to the State of the uncarved block.

For when the block is carved,

it becomes useful for men to manipulate and use.

 

When the Sage returns to this state,

he becomes the ruler of the Ten Thousand Things.

For he leaves everything to rise and fall without interference.

[Marblehead]

Yes Flowing Hands, I have read your translation of this before and really do like it.  You didn't upset my apple cart.

 

I was restricted by the translations I was using.

[Taoist Texts]

Again, it is a compare/contrast between dualities.  Suggest that we don't hold a positiion that we will constantly be tested on.

 

Like the hobo said, "Leave me alone.  I'm happy being a hobo."

Yes thats the thing, thanks for an example for what i am struggling with here. You can recommend to someone 'work hard, play hard'. But to say 'know playing hard yet hold to working hard' is just adding unnecessary words; while 'know your white yet hold to your black' does not make sense at all. I dont understand what the words 'know' and 'hold' are for here.

[Stosh]

It could also be suggesting that one can act in a fashion which isnt true to their sentiment.

Know youre being manipulative but pretending innocence OR knowing its manipulation but going along with it.

Knowing the glory of power but keeping it hidden OR actually being humble though in position of power.

One tends to read bias into the chapters which may not be there. The texts may be read from a truly dark perspective.

For a thing to be universally good ,like the sun, it must shine on both the wicked and the just equally.. Know this but dont spread it around. It may seem useless for promoting ones wisdom, keeping it secret, but thats why its useful to know.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Stosh

[Taoist Texts]

The puzzling feature of this chapter is a equation repeated 3 times with different variables, and always resulting in effective governing of the country:

 

知其雄，守其雌，為天下谿。

知其白，守其黑，為天下式。

知其榮，守其辱，為天下谷。

 

..and usually nonsensically translated along the lines of

 

know the male + hold on to the female, = be the ravine of the country. 
know the pure + hold on to the soiled, = be the valley of the country. 
know the white + hold on to the black, = be the model for the country.

 

In Chinese the functions in the equation are 知其 (zhi qi) to know something and 守其 (shou qi) to guard, to hold, to observe something; while variables are the 3 pairs of metaphorical terms of discourse.

 

I suggest that by the time TTC was written down its meaning was forgotten and muddled (perhaps intentionally), with scribes and unqualified teachers substituting the political discourse terms of male-female, black-white, fame-shame, for what was there initially, now preserved in a fairly obscure tract of

 

《潛夫論 - Qian Fu Lun》

 

by Wang Fu was well-known because of his Qianfulun. According to his best friends’ dates of birth and death and the time that he paid a formal visit Huangfu Gui, we can think Wang Fu was born in about AD80and died in AD162years

 

please note the components of the equation below

 

《斷訟》

 

2 斷訟:

夫制法之意，若為藩籬溝壍以有防矣，擇禽獸之尤可數犯者，而加深厚焉。今姦宄雖眾，然其原少；君事雖繁，然其守約。知其原少姦易塞，見其守約政易治。塞其原則姦宄絕，施其術則遠近治。

 

The meaning of laws is to serve as a palisade and a ditch against the vassals to obstruct them; it is a hunting net for the prosecuted criminals so the laws must be made deep and thick. Nowadays, the internal and the external criminals although are numerous, but they at one time were initially little in number; the duties of the king although are numerous, but they all can be reduced to an always observed essence.

 

So by knowing the initial littleness, and by observing the essence – governing is easy. Plug the initial source and the criminals will discontinue; implement this technique and both far and near will be governed.

[Stosh]

Though I cant read ancient chinese.. that looks nice and orderly , and your reading does make more sense. Since, if one was desirous of being the ravine , mother, and model,of the general public, it would seem a rather 'egoic' set of desires. But it doesn't appear to negate creative metaphors about who is governing , what is the public etc.