Tian, Ren, Di - Heaven, Man, Earth

[The Way Is Virtue]

Stigweard said:

"The trinity of Tian, Ren, Di -- Heaven, Man, Earth"

 

Anyone know of any specific Taoist texts which delve into this concept in any depth? Stig, do any of Ni Hua Ching's books go into detail on this?

 

Can this be thought of as depicting different functions or forms of tao? After doing some reading from various taoist writings, I get the definite impression that some taoist writings can be read from different perspectives, and thus can seem to be speaking to different things depending on the perspective. The Tao Te Ching, for example, would seem to be of this sort. At face level it seems to be a basic philosophy of life, but if one takes a different perspective, requiring deriving meanings from within meanings, it seems to speak to something quite different. Perhaps within this second 'layer' of meaning there is yet another layer of meaning, etc. This has conjured up the image of Earth, Man, and Heaven in my mind, hence the interest in delving into this concept a little deeper.

Edited March 15, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Marblehead]

Hi TWIV,

 

I prefer it be said: Man, Earth, Heaven.

 

This way it fits in with:

Man follows (models himself after) Earth,

Earth follows Heaven

Heaven follows Tao.

 

Now, as to man modeling him/herself after Earth, this can be any of the aspects of Earth as well as the various animals on the planet so pretty much although there are limits, the possible choices (of how to act, what to do, etc) are beyond quantification.

[zerostao]

i think i saw earlier where the I ching, the tai chi classics, and bagua poetry

are not considered to be taoist texts.

so , i guess i can't offer anything here.

[The Way Is Virtue]

I prefer it be said: Man, Earth, Heaven.

This way it fits in with:

Man follows (models himself after) Earth,

Earth follows Heaven

Heaven follows Tao.

Now, as to man modeling him/herself after Earth, this can be any of the aspects of Earth as well as the various animals on the planet so pretty much although there are limits, the possible choices (of how to act, what to do, etc) are beyond quantification.

 

Hi Marble. Ok, right. I think it might possibly be expressed as Heaven, Man, Earth (tian ren di) because man stands between heaven and Earth. Either way, I am interested in delving more into the concept behind this, which I believe is an important concept in Taoism in general that is applicable beyond just a strict literal interpretation of the words. For example, in man, a microcosm of the macrocosm, we have shen, qi, and jing. I see an apparent correlation there, concept wise. This concept can be applied in many other ways, I believe. I am hoping someone knows of some texts or commentaries on texts that go into more detail about this concept.

[doc benway]

It is a very important and fundamental Daoist theme.

One of the exercises in the Daoist meditation system I practice is known as Tian-Ren-Di and involves the unification of the three.

I can't say anything about writings, however - I'm not well read.

Good luck in your search.

[The Way Is Virtue]

It is a very important and fundamental Daoist theme.

One of the exercises in the Daoist meditation system I practice is known as Tian-Ren-Di and involves the unification of the three.

I can't say anything about writings, however - I'm not well read.

Good luck in your search.

 

Thanks Steve, I am not well read either. It would seem that the tian-ren-di would have correlation to shen-qi-jing and the unification of shen-qi-jing, in that particualr case. I think the concept can be applied much more broadly than this and in other ways as well.

Edited March 15, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[VCraigP]

Heaven, Man, Earth.

 

aka - The three treasures.

 

Each has it's own three treasures.

 

Heaven

Sun, Moon, Stars

 

Earth

Water, Wind, Fire

 

Man

Jing, Qi, Shen

 

A trinity is a seemingly universal model.

 

Also agree that man is seen as the itermediary between heaven and earth.

Which means that Man can be viewed in that trinity as having more to do with Qi than Jing...interesting.

I suppose our energy body IS important.

 

Craig

[lazy cloud]

Thanks Steve, I am not well read either. It would seem that the tian-ren-di would have correlation to shen-qi-jing and the unification of shen-qi-jing. I think the concept can be applied much more broadly than this and in other ways as well.

I think zerostao was giving you a few clues.

[Marblehead]

Hi Marble. Ok, right. I think it might possibly be expressed as Heaven, Man, Earth (tian ren di) because man stands between heaven and Earth. Either way, I am interested in delving more into the concept behind this, which I believe is an important concept in Taoism in general that is applicable beyond just a strict literal interpretation of the words. For example, in man, a microcosm of the macrocosm, we have shen, qi, and jing. I see an apparent correlation there, concept wise. This concept can be applied in many other ways, I believe. I am hoping someone knows of some texts or commentaries on texts that go into more detail about this concept.

 

I was shocked! Darn! You are correct. Man is the go-between Earth and Heaven. Where have I read that? It is in the back of my mind right now. I will try to do some research.

 

I think you might be headed toward Alchemic Taoism which I am ignorant of. But I will tag along as long as I can.

 

If I find what my mind tells me I have read before I will get back to this.

 

Have fun!

[The Way Is Virtue]

I was shocked! Darn! You are correct. Man is the go-between Earth and Heaven. Where have I read that? It is in the back of my mind right now. I will try to do some research.

I think you might be headed toward Alchemic Taoism which I am ignorant of. But I will tag along as long as I can.

If I find what my mind tells me I have read before I will get back to this.

Have fun!

 

Hi Marblehead. You have misread me if you think I was trying to put you down in some way. I wasn't. I have not the slightest interest in trying to put someone down or to slight anyone, and there certainly wouldn't be any point in doing so. I was actually just pointing out why I think it is sometimes put in that order, but it really doesn't matter to me either way what the order is. I am interested in the concept behind this. Also, not sure what you mean about 'alchemical taoism' as I didn't mention that. Thanks for the replies though.

Edited March 15, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[doc benway]

Thanks Steve, I am not well read either. It would seem that the tian-ren-di would have correlation to shen-qi-jing and the unification of shen-qi-jing, in that particualr case. I think the concept can be applied much more broadly than this and in other ways as well.

Yes - there is correlation between Jing-Qi-Shen with Di-Ren-Tian. It is a broad concept and is also associated with very focused and specific practical methods.

[The Way Is Virtue]

i think i saw earlier where the I ching, the tai chi classics, and bagua poetry

are not considered to be taoist texts.

so , i guess i can't offer anything here.

 

Ok, I personally wouldn't rule out the I Ching as being a taoist text, although whether one sees it or any other text as taoist or not wouldn't concern me either way. I am more interested here in the concept of heaven man and Earth.

[doc benway]

Heaven, Man, Earth.

 

aka - The three treasures.

 

Each has it's own three treasures.

 

Heaven

Sun, Moon, Stars

 

Earth

Water, Wind, Fire

 

Man

Jing, Qi, Shen

 

A trinity is a seemingly universal model.

 

Also agree that man is seen as the itermediary between heaven and earth.

Which means that Man can be viewed in that trinity as having more to do with Qi than Jing...interesting.

I suppose our energy body IS important.

 

Craig

 

Exactly - that is the specific name of the exercise - the three treasures.

I think another word that can be useful is that man is the intersection of heaven and earth.

Intermediary and go-between both imply separation, intersection is useful as it implies unity.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Yes - there is correlation between Jing-Qi-Shen with Di-Ren-Tian. It is a broad concept and is also associated with very focused and specific practical methods.

 

Right, thanks. This is what I have understood as well.

Edited March 15, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

Heaven, Man, Earth.

aka - The three treasures.

Each has it's own three treasures.

 

Heaven

Sun, Moon, Stars

 

Earth

Water, Wind, Fire

 

Man

Jing, Qi, Shen

 

A trinity is a seemingly universal model.

Also agree that man is seen as the itermediary between heaven and earth.

Which means that Man can be viewed in that trinity as having more to do with Qi than Jing...interesting.

I suppose our energy body IS important.

Craig

 

 

Hi Craig. Interesting, thanks. Yes, I think there would be many applications to this concept A 'universal' concept. The words blueprint or template come to mind. Ever run across any texts that delve into this more in depth?

Edited March 15, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[The Way Is Virtue]

I want to be Chinese Emperor then.

Why?

Analyse the pictrogramm of King. Three horizontal parallel and each line represent

from above heaven, man , earth. This three lines are connected by a middle line perpendicular line. And the whole pictrogram has many interpretation.

The pictogram can be intpreted so that the emperor is connected to earth(hell)as human

and also with heaven(cosmos). There is also a chinese saying which I can not find maybe some can help me here it is about to "Hold Heaven root deep in hell good Han chinese" to be manly and stand tall.

Practically this would mean one has to rooted and expand into the cosmos.

To be connected with the whole universe. "I am one with universe!"(Well was it the 60th?)

 

Q

 

Hi Friend. Interesting. I would guess that one could find parallels in many things, and also in many methods and views. This is what I am thinking anyway.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Also agree that man is seen as the itermediary between heaven and earth.

Which means that Man can be viewed in that trinity as having more to do with Qi than Jing...interesting.

I suppose our energy body IS important.

Craig

 

Hi Craig. I have also seen references to man being divided into three layers vertically, with the upper part of the body relating to heaven, the middle part of the body relating to man, and the lower part of the body relating to Earth. Not sure how that is used however.

[zerostao]

Ok, I personally wouldn't rule out the I Ching as being a taoist text, although whether one sees it or any other text as taoist or not wouldn't concern me either way. I am more interested here in the concept of heaven man and Earth.

i wouldn't rule any of these out as being taoist text. these ideas,concepts, realities are explored and explained in these that i mentioned. and also elsewheres.

presently i am looking at the nei-yeh and the jade emperor's mind seal, not sure if they are taoist texts either but i am diggin them.big time.

the question i asked, then deleted needed to go to a different thread. oops.

Edited March 16, 2011 by zerostao

[Stigweard]

Stigweard said:

"The trinity of Tian, Ren, Di -- Heaven, Man, Earth"

 

Anyone know of any specific Taoist texts which delve into this concept in any depth? Stig, do any of Ni Hua Ching's books go into detail on this?

 

Can this be thought of as depicting different functions or forms of tao? After doing some reading from various taoist writings, I get the definite impression that some taoist writings can be read from different perspectives, and thus can seem to be speaking to different things depending on the perspective. The Tao Te Ching, for example, would seem to be of this sort. At face level it seems to be a basic philosophy of life, but if one takes a different perspective, requiring deriving meanings from within meanings, it seems to speak to something quite different. Perhaps within this second 'layer' of meaning there is yet another layer of meaning, etc. This has conjured up the image of Earth, Man, and Heaven in my mind, hence the interest in delving into this concept a little deeper.

Excellent inquiry!

 

The first place to look for the trinity of Tian-Ren-Di is in the Laozi, Chapter 25:

 

故道大，

天大，

地大，

人亦大。

域中有四大，

而人居其一焉。

人法地，

地法天，

天法道，

道法自然。

 

Therefore Tao is great,

Heaven is great,

Earth is great,

And man is also great.

Existence contains these four greats.

Thus Man is one of the great universal manifestations.

Man follows Earth,

Earth follows Heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

And Tao follows its own nature.

 

Following this discourse then, just as Mr Marbles has said, the sequence could be Ren-Di-Tian followed by Tao.

 

Here is what I have also learned:

 

From the subtle, mysterious Tao, spontaneity arose as a universal law. The light, clear energy rose to become the heavens whilst the dark, dense energy sank to become the earth. The sacred intercourse of these two universal forces gave birth to a third sphere of energy: humanity.

 

The human being is an integration of dense earthly elements and clear heavenly elements. When the practitioner of Tao successfully completes the sacred marriage within, their essence will sublimate into the purity of Tao.

 

So in this view the sequence would be Tian-Ren-Di.

 

The Three Realms of the Universe

 

To have some understanding

of the subtle workings of the universe,

we categorize the different energies as "realms".

There are three realms of existence.

The spiritual realm, referred to as "Heaven,"

or the Realm of Utmost Purity,

contains spiritual power.

The mental realm, referred to as "Man,"

or the Realm of Crystal Purity,

contains rational power.

The physical realm, referred to as "Earth,"

or the Realm of Great Purity,

contains organic power.

Those realms also exist in the physical body.

The spiritual realm resides in the head.

The mental realm resides in the heart.

The physical realm resides below the navel.

These are the three Tan Tien.

Since a human being is a miniature universe,

all cosmic laws are the individual's laws.

Gathering the coarse and subtle in his form,

a person stands between Heaven and Earth.

The mind is the instrument to unite

the spirit with the body.

 

Ni, Hua-Ching, Workbook for Spiritual Development

 

The early form of Daoism (Taoism) held that its body of belief was made up of the tenet of "the ascent of the three in one," that is, "the unity of heaven, earth, and man for the attainment of the Great Peace" (tian-di-ren, sanzhe heyi yi zhi taiping); "the blending of the essence, breath, and shen to become a saint" (jing-qi-shen, sanzhe hunyi er cheng shenxian). From this it evolves into "non-death and eternal life" (zhongshen busi), "resurrection of the bodies" (routi feisheng), and "transformation of the breath into the three pure ones" (qihua sanqing), thus forming the basis of Daoism (Taoism).

http://www.crvp.org/book/Series03/III-3/chapter_vii.htm

 

Another more anthropological view of the development of Tian-Ren-Di is the story of human awareness and understanding of the major forces that influence human life (in no way will I try and establish this as factual, it is just a story that I have come upon).

 

In ancient times of the cave dwellers humans would wonder at the phenomena of the sky. The celestial bodies were awesome and mysterious and were seen to be the law givers of life. Thus the earliest cultures were sky worshipers.

 

[Note that Heaven was also known as the "great one" and thus Tian 天. Primitive cultures personified this sky force and this god became known as Ti 帝 or, in the Shang dynasty, Shang Ti 上帝. This god persists even today in religious Taoism, some referring to "him" as the Jade Emperor.]

 

Then, with the development of agriculture, humans learned of the cycles and forces of the earth. As the human populations became more and more dependent of agriculture the powers of the earth became viewed as equally important. Thus veneration of the earth developed.

 

But human populations grew ever-steadily larger to the point where people began competing for territory and resources to maintain their populations. Politics, economics and ever-increasingly sophisticated human interactions developed. Thus humanity also became seen as an equally important force in life.

 

There you go, that should be enough for now.

 

[Marblehead]

Hi Marblehead. You have misread me if you think I was trying to put you down in some way. I wasn't. I have not the slightest interest in trying to put someone down or to slight anyone, and there certainly wouldn't be any point in doing so. I was actually just pointing out why I think it is sometimes put in that order, but it really doesn't matter to me either way what the order is. I am interested in the concept behind this. Also, not sure what you mean about 'alchemical taoism' as I didn't mention that. Thanks for the replies though.

 

Oh, no! Please don't misunderstand what I said. I love being shocked into awareness! I will oftentimes select one ways of looking at something and neglect very valid other way of looking at that whatever. I thank you! And I mean that with sincereity.

 

I don't know why I mentioned Alchemic Taoism. The thought just came to my mind. As I mentioned, I need to look into this further, which I haven't done yet, in order to clarify my thinking on the concept.

 

So I thank you as well for the discussion.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

There you go, that should be enough for now.

 

 

Thanks Stig. That is a good effort to screw with my fixed opinions. Hehehe.

 

Isn't it neat how we humans can place ourselves in such important positions in the scheme of things?

 

Wierd thought just now from the historical development you presented above. The thought that we looked to the heavens for our answers instead of looking to the earth for them. I think this might be true for all religious development.

 

Cheeezzzee! My mind sure does wander sometimes!!!

[Marblehead]

Okay, so I did a little reading.

 

The concept of "heaven, man, earth" is valid when considering the martial arts and spirituality. Both schools place man as intermediary between earth and heaven.

 

However, as both these schools are man-made I must back out of this discussion. My interests are not strong enough to cause me to gain enough knowledge to be able to discuss the concept.

 

But then, I do see where the concept 'heaven, man, earth' is valid and worthy of investigation by those interested.

[Stigweard]

Okay, so I did a little reading.

 

The concept of "heaven, man, earth" is valid when considering the martial arts and spirituality. Both schools place man as intermediary between earth and heaven.

 

However, as both these schools are man-made I must back out of this discussion. My interests are not strong enough to cause me to gain enough knowledge to be able to discuss the concept.

 

But then, I do see where the concept 'heaven, man, earth' is valid and worthy of investigation by those interested.

Awww ... comon ... you know you want to

 

Don't miss the important nuance of:

 

The mind (Ren) is the instrument to unite the spirit (Tian) with the body (Di).

 

And especially the guidance of: Three breaths as one.

 

[Marblehead]

Awww ... comon ... you know you want to

 

Don't miss the important nuance of:

 

The mind (Ren) is the instrument to unite the spirit (Tian) with the body (Di).

And especially the guidance of: Three breaths as one.

 

 

Hehehe. Yeah, I did pick up on what I bolded.

 

There is actually a site titles "Heavenmanearth.com", martial arts.

 

Yes, the 'three breaths', the 'three treasures'.

 

We'll see. If y'all get back down to earth I might be able to talk with y'all. Hehehe.