Tian, Ren, Di - Heaven, Man, Earth

[Stigweard]

Hehehe. Yeah, I did pick up on what I bolded.

 

There is actually a site titles "Heavenmanearth.com", martial arts.

 

Yes, the 'three breaths', the 'three treasures'.

 

We'll see. If y'all get back down to earth I might be able to talk with y'all. Hehehe.

[The Way Is Virtue]

There you go, that should be enough for now.

 

Hi Stig. Thanks for the detailed reply. I will read through more carefully later. Some interesting notes in there. Have to get going to work. I have of course seen the references in the Tao Te Ching that you and Marble have mentioned, and I have seen other references here and there in various contexts, so it appears that this is a fairly important concept in taoism and related areas. I have seen it expressed simply as san he yi, or three unite into one, or three are united as one.

[The Way Is Virtue]

i wouldn't rule any of these out as being taoist text. these ideas,concepts, realities are explored and explained in these that i mentioned. and also elsewheres.

presently i am looking at the nei-yeh and the jade emperor's mind seal, not sure if they are taoist texts either but i am diggin them.big time.

 

Hi zerostao. Ok, yes I have seen references in various places as well. Have not previously done much reading in the I Ching. Would you or anyone else happen to know of a decent translation that includes all the main commentaries? Would like to tackle that one of these days.

[zerostao]

Hi zerostao. Ok, yes I have seen references in various places as well. Have not previously done much reading in the I Ching. Would you or anyone else happen to know of a decent translation that includes all the main commentaries? Would like to tackle that one of these days.

for me the wilhelm translation has been useful even if, it was translated from chinese to german and then to english. it has all commentaries and the ten wings.

the forward by carl jung was very useful for me.

i am probably going to get another couple of versions soon. but i will always also refer back to the wilhelm book.

[The Way Is Virtue]

There you go, that should be enough for now.

 

Interesting info. Thanks Stig.

[The Way Is Virtue]

for me the wilhelm translation has been useful even if, it was translated from chinese to german and then to english. it has all commentaries and the ten wings.

the forward by carl jung was very useful for me.

i am probably going to get another couple of versions soon. but i will always also refer back to the wilhelm book.

 

Thanks. I purchased Alfred Huang's "The Complete I Ching" a while ago but haven't had a chance to read it yet. I doesn't contain translations of all the 10 wings, but apparently contains translations of the most commonly included wings. Alfred Huang studied the I Ching under a teacher of the I Ching many years ago and Alfred Huang says he tried to make his translation as close to the Chinese meaning as he could manage, so I thought it would be a good translation to start with. I will keep Wilhelm's translation in mind as well. Alfred Huang said of all the English translations he has looked at that Wilhelm's and Legge's translations are the best, but Huang said that he still didn't think these translations were completely true to the original Chinese in his opinion. At any rate I will keep the Wilhelm version on my list for further reading since it contains translations of all ten wings.

 

Cleary's "The Taoist I Ching" looks interesting as well as it contains a translation of a commentary by the Taoist Liu I-Ming.

 

Here is a website that gives some reviews of various English translations of the I Ching:

I CHing Translations

 

I also came across this book which is a translation of a somewhat different version of the I Ching found in Mawangdui, China, in 1973, and is thought to have originated in the 2nd century BCE. It includes 4 lost commentaries as well. I think this book may be out of print now though so it may only be available as a used book at the current time, but I am not sure.

I Ching - The Classic of Changes - Amazon - Edward L. Shaughnessy

Another description of this book on Google

[寒月 Hanyue]

The I Ching is NOT Daoist.

 

There are however Daoist commentaries, as well as Buddhist and Confucian ones. They ALL used it. Just because it it is not a Daoist text, does not mean it has not been utilised by Daoists for a long time. As with anything their appreciation and take on its uses and meanings will differ slightly.

 

Same with many Chinese texts, Daoists have often claimed them, and PEOPLE!, as being about what they do, Buddhists and Confucians also do the same. It is just the way of things.

 

Given that most on here are not so interested in diving into the depths of a rigorous understanding of the entwining of all these things through Chinese history, it doesn't really matter. And ALL history is speculation and opinion even when highly educated, there will always be different versions and debates on it.

 

天人地 tian ren di

 

Is also written tian di ren and appears in Japanese arts frequently as well. It is a trinity that occurs a lot and is a central and important theme. That said many of the correlations and correspondences you will find are tradition specific so it is kinda pointless to try to catalogue them and lump them all together.

 

It is to be used to understand harmony and balance in ALL things. I would rather appreciate the idea behind it and what it s trying to impart to you, rather than the past ideas of others. Though they may help you understand how to see in to the concept itself.

 

If you want to balance two things you need a pivot or central point no?

 

In relation to ones life, you need to balance spiritual pursuits with more mundane aspects of life that still need to be addressed, this is one aspect of tian ren di. Zhuang gong is based on tian ren di, and standing in particular is seen as a very direct embodiment of this idea. You are literally 'standing' between Heaven and Earth. There are many qigongs which directly play with the mixing of heaven and eath qi into you as the intermediary. Some of these are moving qigong, some are seated. Some combine this trinity with other trinities such as the three dantians, and jing, qi, shen. You can also bring in skin, tissue, bone or martial, medical, and spiritual.

 

The concept itself goes back to the shamanic origins of these things and the tree and the three 'homes'. But unfortunately these days these ideas have been so appropriated it is hard to find any reliable sources and ones that are not re-hashes of newage neo-shamanic waffle based more upon kabbalistic and Western ceremonial type notions of a 'world' map. The commonly seen separated three "worlds" (there is only one world) often depicted as Germanic or Norse for example have no grounding in the actual texts of those cultures whatsoever. And this notion has been further widespread as how 'shamanic' people everywhere view the world, sad (think retcon ). Things are often a little more mundane than many want to believe.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Best regards,

Edited March 20, 2011 by snowmonki

[al.]

Thanks. I purchased Alfred Huang's "The Complete I Ching" a while ago but haven't had a chance to read it yet. I doesn't contain translations of all the 10 wings, but apparently contains translations of the most commonly included wings. Alfred Huang studied the I Ching under a teacher of the I Ching many years ago and Alfred Huang says he tried to make his translation as close to the Chinese meaning as he could manage, so I thought it would be a good translation to start with. I will keep Wilhelm's translation in mind as well. Alfred Huang said of all the English translations he has looked at that Wilhelm's and Legge's translations are the best, but Huang said that he still didn't think these translations were completely true to the original Chinese in his opinion. At any rate I will keep the Wilhelm version on my list for further reading since it contains translations of all ten wings.

 

Cleary's "The Taoist I Ching" looks interesting as well as it contains a translation of a commentary by the Taoist Liu I-Ming.

 

Here is a website that gives some reviews of various English translations of the I Ching:

I CHing Translations

 

I also came across this book which is a translation of a somewhat different version of the I Ching found in Mawangdui, China, in 1973, and is thought to have originated in the 2nd century BCE. It includes 4 lost commentaries as well. I think this book may be out of print now though so it may only be available as a used book at the current time, but I am not sure.

I Ching - The Classic of Changes - Amazon - Edward L. Shaughnessy

Another description of this book on Google

 

Hiya,

 

you might find interesting these:

 

Heaven, Earth, and Man in the Book of Changes, by Hellmut Wilhem

 

and

 

Bradford Hatcher's work on the Yijing, available for free at www.hermitica.info (his "matrix" translation offers multiple english words for each chinese character, thereby trying to sidestep translation problems...)

 

 

The I Ching is NOT Daoist.

 

There are however Daoist commentaries, as well as Buddhist and Confucian ones. They ALL used it. Just because it it is not a Daoist text, does not mean it has not been utilised by Daoists for a long time. As with anything their appreciation and take on its uses and meanings will differ slightly.

 

Same with many Chinese texts, Daoists have often claimed them, and PEOPLE!, as being about what they do, Buddhists and Confucians also do the same. It is just the way of things.

 

Given that most on here are not so interested in diving into the depths of a rigorous understanding of the entwining of all these things through Chinese history, it doesn't really matter. And ALL history is speculation and opinion even when highly educated, there will always be different versions and debates on it.

 

天人地 tian ren di

 

Is also written tian di ren and appears in Japanese arts frequently as well. It is a trinity that occurs a lot and is a central and important theme. That said many of the correlations and correspondences you will find are tradition specific so it is kinda pointless to try to catalogue them and lump them all together.

 

It is to be used to understand harmony and balance in ALL things. I would rather appreciate the idea behind it and what it s trying to impart to you, rather than the past ideas of others. Though they may help you understand how to see in to the concept itself.

 

If you want to balance two things you need a pivot or central point no?

 

In relation to ones life, you need to balance spiritual pursuits with more mundane aspects of life that still need to be addressed, this is one aspect of tian ren di. Zhuang gong is based on tian ren di, and standing in particular is seen as a very direct embodiment of this idea. You are literally 'standing' between Heaven and Earth. There are many qigongs which directly play with the mixing of heaven and eath qi into you as the intermediary. Some of these are moving qigong, some are seated. Some combine this trinity with other trinities such as the three dantians, and jing, qi, shen. You can also bring in skin, tissue, bone or martial, medical, and spiritual.

 

The concept itself goes back to the shamanic origins of these things and the tree and the three 'homes'. But unfortunately these days these ideas have been so appropriated it is hard to find any reliable sources and ones that are not re-hashes of newage neo-shamanic waffle based more upon kabbalistic and Western ceremonial type notions of a 'world' map. The commonly seen separated three "worlds" (there is only one world) often depicted as Germanic or Norse for example have no grounding in the actual texts of those cultures whatsoever. And this notion has been further widespread as how 'shamanic' people everywhere view the world, sad (think retcon ). Things are often a little more mundane than many want to believe.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Best regards,

 

This is all very interesting.

 

Something that's been niggling me for a while- when talking of the three forces Heaven, Man, Earth, the gradation between them suggests that there is a hierarchy at work, which has all sorts of implications.

 

Then again, there is the saying, "the three are one". So it seems there is some kind of 'chicken-or-egg' paradox at play here, depending on how one looks at it.

 

So is there hierarchy in the Daoist view of the world?

 

Or is the ideal to escape the world of numbers and abide in the absolute and unchanging?

[Marblehead]

Something that's been niggling me for a while- when talking of the three forces Heaven, Man, Earth, the gradation between them suggests that there is a hierarchy at work, which has all sorts of implications.

 

Yep. And this is why it is important to not place value judgements on any aspect of Tao.

 

Tao came first, then the heavens, then earth, and then man. (Watch your thoughts you nasty people. Hehehe)

 

And yes, All is One, however, ....

[The Way Is Virtue]

...

Hope this helps,

Best regards,

 

Thanks for the input snowmonki. There are references to this concept or at least somewhat similar concepts or views in the I Ching from what I can see, and the I Ching was thought to have roots that go back to almost three thousand BCE, I believe. It doesn't really matter to me so much whether the I Ching is considered to be taoist in origin or not but there is no doubt that some taoists at least have made use of this work and seem to have considered it important. Personally I haven't studied the I Ching much previously but am interested in studying further now as it is no doubt an important work in various Chinese traditions and seems to have had a fairly significant impact on at least some of these traditions. Thanks again for the comments...

Edited March 20, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hiya,

you might find interesting these:

Heaven, Earth, and Man in the Book of Changes, by Hellmut Wilhem

and

Bradford Hatcher's work on the Yijing, available for free at www.hermitica.info (his "matrix" translation offers multiple english words for each chinese character, thereby trying to sidestep translation problems...)

 

Hi al. Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

[寒月 Hanyue]

It doesn't really matter to me so much whether the I Ching is considered to be taoist in origin or not but there is no doubt that some taoists at least have made use of this work and seem to have considered it important.

 

Bingo! +1 So WHY did they think it was IMPORTANT? Most look at it today simply because they think it is Daoist and so they should. If you are trying to understand what the old Daoists were, then you will be studying the I ching even if you never pick up the book. Being before Doing.

 

Personally I haven't studied the I Ching much previously but am interested in studying further

 

Observe change. Dao is change, nature is change you are change. I had written a follow up post but it seems it is not meant to be and the forum has eaten it. Somethings just aren't meant to get posted! The trinity is about understanding change. Start with experience and with guidance use the I ching to make sense of it, it is best not to study an old text and try to make your observations fit it.

 

Be aware of becoming tied up with Chinese numerology, and be aware that the two main sources for the numerology/cosmology are the I ching and the Lao zi, and they give conflicting information. Most use one and re-interpret the other accordingly.

 

Thanks again for the comments...

 

You're most welcome, they are only thoughts

 

Best

[Gerard]

This way it fits in with:

Man follows (models himself after) Earth,

Earth follows Heaven

Heaven follows Tao.

 

 

HI friend,

 

My experience is that:

 

Man follows and insults Earth while disobeying Heaven, Heaven needs Earth for support and Earth needs Heaven to express herself.

 

Man is a naughty creature that requires the constant reminder of 'De' in order to attain wisdom and maintain the balance between both poles.

 

The three are parts of a whole called the Tao, which also has a non-dualistic nature since it is not tied to the impermanence caused by the eternal struggle between Yin and Yang.

 

Edited July 8, 2016 by Gerard