The Tao Bums Interview with Bruce Frantzis - March 2011

[VCraigP]

Awesome interview. Also check out his podcast interview with Lama Tantrapa which I mentioned in the "Free Wisdom" Thread.

 

Plus I find it a personal triumph that he pointedly refused to answer my question about Lineage transmission.

 

Mr Frantzis, if you are reading this, RESPECT. It was a question born of curiosity of how the melding of these Eastern traditions into the West are happening. You have every right to refuse to answer as it is indeed HIGHLY personal.

Thanks again to Sean and Bruce Frantzis for bringing this quality information.

 

Now I must go dig some more shallow wells...sigh.

 

Craig

[dwai]

You may remember back in November 2010 I posted an inquiry "what would you ask Bruce Frantzis?"

 

Thank you for the many thoughtful questions that came out of that topic.

 

So many in fact it was rather hard choosing which to send to Bruce.

 

A huge thanks to Apech there for helping me organize all these questions into a coherent document, and reviewing the final streamlined interview questions. (Thanks!)

 

This post is to announce that I've just received Bruce's responses now.

 

It turns out he took many hours to carefully respond to our interview questions.

 

The interview is well over 8,000 words.

 

So instead of trying to format it into a post, I created a PDF of the whole thing which you can download here:

Interview with Bruce Frantzis and The Tao Bums March 2011

 

Hope you enjoy!

 

 

Best,

Sean

 

PS - I've also been told that Bruce's new "Taoist Meditation Circle" is live:

http://www.energyart...le-subscription

 

Looks pretty cool. If you're thinking of signing up, be sure to use the coupon they gave me "taobums10" for 10% off.

 

 

Thanks a lot for this wonderful gift Sean! Bruce's wisdom is as present in this interview as it is in his books.

I hope one of these I'll get an opportunity to attend one of his training workshops in person...because even without ever having met him, he has made a HUGE impact on my practice and my life.

 

Kudos for an excellent interview.

 

 

[candide]

Great interview, thanks to everyone involved.

 

But holy crap, a car accident every year for 7 years?!? Bruce really seems to have a bad kar-ma in that regard

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Apech]

Just read through this. Very interesting.

 

As someone has already said ... seven car accidents in seven years ... bloody hell!

 

Anyway glad I was part of putting this together. Maybe TTBs should interview more teachers it would be a great resource for us all.

[Astral Monk]

Great resource. I liked how he answered the questions fairly directly. I'm thinking I shouldve hooked up to the Bagua mastery program when it started up! Maybe next year.

 

8)

[寒月 Hanyue]

Very nice, I think he is doing a great service by bringing these techniques to the masses. It sounds like he may have a plan of starting his teachings in the west with physical teachings then later going into the spiritual in more depth.

 

Has anyone trained in the Dragon and Tiger Medical Qigong he talks about? how do you rate it?

 

I never got on with it. A personality thing maybe, I intend to try it out again in a few years to see if things have shifted. I like his neigong, but never liked the movement of D&T. I like the qi work content just not the shell.

 

Best,

[Mal]

Since Breathing gets mentioned a lot, what would be a good "Bruce Frantzis" resource for breathing

(also recalling Pietro's learning to breathe thread from when he went to the seminar - IIRC)

[寒月 Hanyue]

I took an intro Dragon & Tiger class early on in my qigong studies. The movements allowed me to tangibly feel deeply into my body. I could feel the yin/yang flow! Too sensitive at the time for D&T, I stopped. If someone is interested in D&T, I suggest studying with a BKF trained teacher, as the movementseare very specific. And, what is very, very benificial from BKF classes: the warmups. Not to be missed.

 

+1 You can't learn it from the book or dvd despite the illusion that you can. It's one of those grey areas. Like energy gate qigong, don't think the book is enough by a long shot. Find someone who can teach it to you.

 

I know Bruce softened it from its apparently "Buddhist" origins, but the movement patterns I just found far too alien and I prefer the neigong approach rather than the qigong one (as per Bruce's definitions).

 

By the way, when Bruce says it is "easy to learn" he means easy to learn in comparison to NEIGONG in that in the neigong you continue to sophisticate it by adding layer upon layer until what you are doing is fairly complex. It is NOT an easy qigong to learn, not when compared to plenty of others. And PLENTY of people find the shape far hadrer to learn than the shapes of his neigong sets, it is just that overall you will not go as deep with D&T and so it is "EASY", FWIW

 

I view it like marmite given the reactions I've seen to it

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Since Breathing gets mentioned a lot, what would be a good "Bruce Frantzis" resource for breathing

(also recalling Pietro's learning to breathe thread from when he went to the seminar - IIRC)

 

My personal choice would be the CD set. Bruce's steps vary a little from one product to the next, the chapter in 'energy gates' and the lessons in 'relax into your being' are probably the best written sources (the chapter on breathing from his Dragon & Tiger book used to be free as a downloadable pdf somewhere on his site or one of his sub-sites). The DVD is interesting but the CD pretty much brings all of it together and you can simply follow along or use mp3's to make a playlist of where you are at.

 

I also prefer the progression on the CD which is not the same as the written sources or dvd. It starts with energetics, goes back to fill in the body and then rounds out with energetics again. But this is just my opinion.

 

Best,

[Jetsun]

+1 You can't learn it from the book or dvd despite the illusion that you can. It's one of those grey areas. Like energy gate qigong, don't think the book is enough by a long shot. Find someone who can teach it to you.

 

I know Bruce softened it from its apparently "Buddhist" origins, but the movement patterns I just found far too alien and I prefer the neigong approach rather than the qigong one (as per Bruce's definitions).

 

By the way, when Bruce says it is "easy to learn" he means easy to learn in comparison to NEIGONG in that in the neigong you continue to sophisticate it by adding layer upon layer until what you are doing is fairly complex. It is NOT an easy qigong to learn, not when compared to plenty of others. And PLENTY of people find the shape far hadrer to learn than the shapes of his neigong sets, it is just that overall you will not go as deep with D&T and so it is "EASY", FWIW

 

I view it like marmite given the reactions I've seen to it

 

Best,

 

Hehe too late I ordered it the other day with the dvd, I will have to see how I get on with it and report back. I'm surprised you say it is so hard to learn, it has been marketed as an easy to learn set for the masses

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hehe too late I ordered it the other day with the dvd, I will have to see how I get on with it and report back. I'm surprised you say it is so hard to learn, it has been marketed as an easy to learn set for the masses

 

Please, I hope no one takes my comments as they are not intended. They are ONLY my comments based on my view.

 

You can watch the form of D&T on youtube (though what some people are doing will just give you a good laugh). But there is footage of Bruce as well as his senior students that is worth checking out if you are interested. Remember there is the external shape/form and then there is what is going on inside of it.

 

PLEASE ALWAYS REMEMBER CONTEXT. What CONTEXT is Bruce stating what he does about D&T from? Whether that is his use of "medical" qigong, its ability to heal cancer, or the 'easy' statement. Easy for WHOM? in what context?

 

The co-ordination of the movements in D&T is, at times, more complex than Heaven & Earth neigong, and the jiben gong used in energy gates/spiralling energy body neigong etc. So why does Bruce say it is easy? As I posted I have been informed that the easy reference is NOT in relation to the form and movements of the set. It is a comment about it being qigong and therefore does not get as sophisticated with all the layers that CAN be put into the neigong sets. So the shape of the neigong is easier but as you add layer upon layer it becomes much much harder. I also think that given the greater freedom from Bruce's complex physical alignment requirements in his neigong sets, many that then learn D&T get a sigh of relief! But that CONTEXT is D&T compared to the neigong, not to other (non-Frantzis) qigong that purports to teach essentially the same aspects of qigong.

 

I have watched many people become completely baffled by the co-ordination required by several of the movements in D&T, and I know people who have gone through learning it several times and still find it confusing. Now if you give it a go and find it easy, does that mean these people are wrong? No. It means some get on with it well and it 'fits' them and others do not. But having witnessed this, when asked, can I honestly answer with "yes D&T is easy to learn." No, I cannot.

 

Bruce makes a good attempt at making things 'easy' to learn from his materials, but there is (as with anyone's) a very real danger of creating a much greater impression of what can and cannot be learned solely from such resources. This is also why Bruce only puts certain things in his books and dvds and will teach other things in person.

 

I AM NOT SAYING that the book or dvd is worthless, but personally I think such things are only worth the investment as additional resources to learning from a decent teacher. Can you get something from them without a teacher, probably, but time with a teacher is far more worthwhile what ever it is they are teaching IMO.

 

D&T is primarily taught to introduce some of the qi based elements, but they are also present in the neigong sets. The basic ones being projecting qi from laogong and connecting to and influencing energy lines in the body as well as the etheric body outside. But personally I have been taught qigong sets (outside of Bruce's system) that are much easier to learn that also teach you this, and the neigong sets also do this and can be used to focus upon these components too. So when I learned D&T I found the content helpful but didn't get on with the shape of it. It seemed overly complicated to me for what it was being used to teach. But as I said before I view it like marmite, more than any other of Bruce's sets I have seen a love it or hate from those that learn it So until you give it a go, how will you know?

 

Best,

[idquest]

My personal choice would be the CD set. Bruce's steps vary a little from one product to the next, the chapter in 'energy gates' and the lessons in 'relax into your being' are probably the best written sources (the chapter on breathing from his Dragon & Tiger book used to be free as a downloadable pdf somewhere on his site or one of his sub-sites). The DVD is interesting but the CD pretty much brings all of it together and you can simply follow along or use mp3's to make a playlist of where you are at.

 

I also prefer the progression on the CD which is not the same as the written sources or dvd. It starts with energetics, goes back to fill in the body and then rounds out with energetics again. But this is just my opinion.

 

Best,

Does Bruce teach reversed breathing in the CDs? So far I have found only direct breathing in his material. He was going to address reversed breathing in his Bagua Mastery program (or so I understood). I also hope he will teach reversed breathing in his breathing program he's going to release.

[RobB]

Hi All,

 

IIRC Bruce has said about D&T that you can do it badly and still start to get some benefits. Well, obviously he didn't say that but I do recall him talking about not letting 'the perfect be the enemy of the good' at a D&T beginners weekend that I attended in the UK. The neigong do require a lot of strict physical alignments and work in the inital stages that - to my beginners understanding - D&T does not. Yes - the choreography is complex - particularly if you're not very co-ordinated to begin with. However the impression I got was that, (again) in the intial stages, D&T is perhaps more about 'making shapes' and tracking channel paths etc rather than doing internal things which make external shapes happen. Perhaps that is what is meant by 'easy'.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[寒月 Hanyue]

Does Bruce teach reversed breathing in the CDs? So far I have found only direct breathing in his material. He was going to address reversed breathing in his Bagua Mastery program (or so I understood). I also hope he will teach reversed breathing in his breathing program he's going to release.

 

As I have been told, Bruce's requirement for reverse breathing is having a relaxed two minute breath. I have only known him hint at what his version involves in released materials. I can only assume that when he feels it is appropriate to those in front of him he will teach or show parts of it. I cannot comment on it, I don't know it.

 

As per usual Bruce goes in to great depth in to each stage, much more than many teachers do. Bruce does separate the physical and the subtle breaths. His way for you to learn to be aware of the subtle breath is to first clear out the blockages in your physical breath.

 

This is the track listing on the cd.

 

DISC 1:

 

Introduction

1: Feeling Your Breath

2: Learning to Avoid Holding Your Breath

3: Becoming Aware of Distraction

4: Breathing Along the Central Channel of Your Body

5: Breathing Down the Central Channel to Your Lower Tantieni

6: Stabilizing the Breath and Energy of Your Lower Tantien

7: Letting Your Breathing Drop From Your Chest to Your Belly

8: Breathing From the Sides of Your Body

9: Simultaneously Breathing From the Front and Sides

10: Lower Back and Kidney Breathing

11: Upper Back Breathing

12: Breathing Energy Into Your Lower Tantien

Epilogue

 

DISC 2:

 

Introduction

1: Relaxing Your Breath

2: Feeling Your Breath

3: Counting Your Breaths

4: Feeling All Sensations When You Inhale and Exhale

5: Developing Continuous Awareness of Your Breath

6: Becoming Aware of the Fog of the Mind

7: The Importance of Releasing the Chest

8: Breathing Underneath the Ribs and Awareness of Emotions

9: Becoming Further Aware of Your Emotions

10: Fear and the Kidneys

11: The Upper Body and the Spine

12: Activating all Energies in the Physical and Etheric Body

Epilogue

[idquest]

As I have been told, Bruce's requirement for reverse breathing is having a relaxed two minute breath. I have only known him hint at what his version involves in released materials. I can only assume that when he feels it is appropriate to those in front of him he will teach or show parts of it. I cannot comment on it, I don't know it.

 

As per usual Bruce goes in to great depth in to each stage, much more than many teachers do. Bruce does separate the physical and the subtle breaths. His way for you to learn to be aware of the subtle breath is to first clear out the blockages in your physical breath.

 

This is the track listing on the cd.

 

DISC 1:

 

Introduction

1: Feeling Your Breath

2: Learning to Avoid Holding Your Breath

3: Becoming Aware of Distraction

4: Breathing Along the Central Channel of Your Body

5: Breathing Down the Central Channel to Your Lower Tantieni

6: Stabilizing the Breath and Energy of Your Lower Tantien

7: Letting Your Breathing Drop From Your Chest to Your Belly

8: Breathing From the Sides of Your Body

9: Simultaneously Breathing From the Front and Sides

10: Lower Back and Kidney Breathing

11: Upper Back Breathing

12: Breathing Energy Into Your Lower Tantien

Epilogue

 

DISC 2:

 

Introduction

1: Relaxing Your Breath

2: Feeling Your Breath

3: Counting Your Breaths

4: Feeling All Sensations When You Inhale and Exhale

5: Developing Continuous Awareness of Your Breath

6: Becoming Aware of the Fog of the Mind

7: The Importance of Releasing the Chest

8: Breathing Underneath the Ribs and Awareness of Emotions

9: Becoming Further Aware of Your Emotions

10: Fear and the Kidneys

11: The Upper Body and the Spine

12: Activating all Energies in the Physical and Etheric Body

Epilogue

Thanks, snowmonki,

 

So the CDs are both narrative and lessons/guided brething practice as I understand.

 

I agree the level of detail in Bruce's material is amazing. When I first saw his material I thought it was too basic and not worthy of time - big mistake. He takes simple basic movements but fill them out with very deep internal work so students don't have to spend time on learning numerous fancy exercises but can go directly to the roots.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Ha! Yes, I found that when I focused on 'doing the movements correctly' on one side of the body, my timing was off on the other side. Oh, my MIND was probably the most pained part of me when learning D&T.

 

I liked that you could take a class of the same neigong form endlessly.

 

In the end, all practice is an investment. Money. Time. Effort. So far, my money, time and effort have been very much well spent.

 

It certainly gets the left-right brain working!

 

I've seen a lot of people who get bored and fed up because of this too. It is a shame. Andrew Nugent-Head of yin bagua explains that traditional Chinese learning/teaching is about learning A-B-C-D, and the then learning D-C-B-A, and then learning A-B-C-D again but from a different view and then learning D-C-B-A and so on. You use the same thing but keep learning it forwards backwards and in different ways. Western learning is to learn A-B-C-D, and then to move on to E-F-G-H because you want something new. You both will get to the end point and both have the potential for going as deep, but the Western approach tends to be concerned more, initially, with learning 'things' and the outer. The Chinese approach with exploring the 'layers' and depth. His current teacher told him if he wanted to be his student he expected him to learn the classic medical texts by heart (only forwards not backwards as he was not Chinese) and to learn to write with his right hand not his left!

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thanks, snowmonki,

 

So the CDs are both narrative and lessons/guided brething practice as I understand.

 

I agree the level of detail in Bruce's material is amazing. When I first saw his material I thought it was too basic and not worthy of time - big mistake. He takes simple basic movements but fill them out with very deep internal work so students don't have to spend time on learning numerous fancy exercises but can go directly to the roots.

 

Bruce explains the classic texts as each sentence being like a book title in itself, a deep well. Many skip to chase the next big thing, or in this analogy speed read and miss a lot. That said, it can go two ways, you can dive to far and never move on ie become stagnant in your practice (I am guilty of both at different times). So moderation and balance and guidance are best.

 

I met someone this year who put so much of Bruce's stuff in perspective for me it was like being given a decoder ring

 

Best,

[Mal]

My personal choice would be the CD set.

 

<snip> ... the CD pretty much brings all of it together and you can simply follow along or use mp3's to make a playlist of where you are at.

 

I also prefer the progression on the CD which is not the same as the written sources or dvd. It starts with energetics, goes back to fill in the body and then rounds out with energetics again. But this is just my opinion.

 

Thank you, I've purchased a copy. Will give me something to practice after reading The Power of Internal Martial Arts

 

Given the look of the track listing I feel it will reinforce what I have learnt and practice from KAP. I think I'll encode the cd as an mp3 and stick them on my PSP with my damo's cave meditations

[gendao]

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thank you, I've purchased a copy. Will give me something to practice after reading The Power of Internal Martial Arts

 

Given the look of the track listing I feel it will reinforce what I have learnt and practice from KAP. I think I'll encode the cd as an mp3 and stick them on my PSP with my damo's cave meditations

 

Hi Mal

 

I think you'll find it useful. It won't conflict with KAP. The same basic idea of breathing in to the kidneys, sides etc are layed out in the Tian dao course Doc studied, although they teach them after several other breath patterning and other exercises.

 

The breathing CD and the 'Songs of the Dao' are the two of Bruce's materials with the most mileage on them that I have.

 

Best,

 

P.S. I like Dennis Lewis work on breathing for a well rounded perspective.

[RiverSnake]

His emphasis on breathing intrigued me as well. I just purchased his book Relaxing into your Being. On the site it says the cds are companions to the book. Can't wait to BREATH!

[GreytoWhite]

[Jetsun]

[taodancing]

I just finished reading the .pdf of the interview. In is amazing info. Thank you so much Sean for summarizing and posting it. Thank you so much.