What is Tao

[Encephalon]

Wooooooooooow. I never would have survived these 8 pages.

 

I came along a little bit after Easy, in 1960, the last of the baby Boomers. I have since determined for myself that the effort of de-mystifying Tao is almost as futile as de-mystifying the Mind of God. I have further determined, for myself but maybe others, that the impulse to do so is flawed from the beginning and hides an existential discomfort with the mystery and ambiguity that are natural to our world. I have met dozens of souls who diligently pursue the Truth not so much as a means to understaning but as a means to quench the pain of this ambiguity.

 

I've been hammered in this forum for suggesting that specificity and a strict attention to definition of terms would go far toward eliminating much confusion and ill-will. One person saw fit to remind me that the 'spiritual' nature of this forum absolves us from having to read or write carefully! That was a Doozie. At this point I'd guess a minimum of 3-4 hours just to tease out the definitions of terms used in this post. There has been much equivocation. Submitting examples in support of our views and coming to consensus about what can or can not be known, what is verifiable and falsifiable and what is not, would probably take a weekend workshop, which is precisely what we did every year up at Sonoma State U. at the annual critical thinking conferences. Teachers from all over the world found these exercises formidable, so I'm not pretending that clear thinking should come naturally. In fact, human inuition is often radically in error, while sensible explanations to complicated phenomena are often radically counter-intuitive. That's why, for the foreseeable future, I'm sticking with science, specifically ecology, since metaphysical speculation seems to have run its course.

 

Aaron, I think we should take you up on your offer to submit your resources alleging the scientific validation of human communication via the incorporeal plane. Many of us old farts budget plenty of daily reading time and it would be humbling indeed if such an extraordinary development in human history were to escape us.

 

In the meantime, I will be contacting a friend of mine. He's a 5th degree black belt in aikido and a teacher of chi kung and Vipassana meditation. He'll be delivering a presentation at this year's critical thinking conference on how to think critically about the subjective, interior states of consciousness that have been touched upon here. Maybe I can get him to post something that speaks to these concerns.

[torus693]

I don't understand what you are saying here. What "shape"?

 

Remember, Tao existed before form or shape existed and way, way, way before man existed.

 

In our current manifestation tao is a result of form.

 

"formless form" should be taken literally. The formless form is not visible in this dimension of duality, but it is definitely a form. It has boundary and very precise geometry. The force of Tao that sets everything in motion come from the "formless form" The source of that force is true emptiness which cannot be sensed or experienced from within a polarized reality. The polarity must stop first, then the formless form makes its self known to higher mind. The veils of resistance the hide Tao or god from human perception are the layers of matters that comprise all forms.

 

Tao cannot be sensed by the ego or mind and mush of the self is bound to polarized perspectives called beliefs.

[torus693]

I don't understand what you are saying here. What "shape"?

 

Remember, Tao existed before form or shape existed and way, way, way before man existed.

 

In our current manifestation tao is a result of form.

 

"formless form" should be taken literally. The formless form is not visible in this dimension of duality, but it is definitely a form. It has boundary and very precise geometry. The force of Tao that sets everything in motion come from the "formless form" The source of that force is true emptiness which cannot be sensed or experienced from within a polarized reality. The polarity must stop first, then the formless form makes its self known to higher mind. The veils of resistance the hide Tao or god from human perception are the layers of matters that comprise all forms.

 

Tao cannot be sensed by the ego or mind and much of the self is bound to polarized perspectives called beliefs.

Edited March 23, 2011 by torus693

[torus693]

the shape of chaos is my guess.

 

there are two forms rising from Tao that establish the geometry of the gate through which the force of the formlessness makes its presence within polarized "reality"

 

One of those forms is accurately described as Chaos -like a fractal pattern.

Not chaos with a negative tense. This is the beatific vision, the mother.

[torus693]

"Before the beginning all existed but there were no 'things'. All was chaos; All was One."

 

this is very good,

 

One of the conditions of Tao is 'Omnipresence' a state beyond time

 

The direct omnipresent experience of "no things" is something that is from our polarized time based perspective happening (now) not an historical reference to how we came into being.

Edited March 23, 2011 by torus693

[lazy cloud]

If I wasn't interested in Twinner or Twinner's views then I would not have used my energy to post on this thread. Great thread this is and it would be cool if you did start a seperate collective conscious/unconscious thread.

 

A few minor things that don't really matter but brought up in a friendly way , striving for consistency.

"winning an argument" This flew way over my head. There is no winning or losing. It is an exchange and sharing of ideas. We all learn from each other.

 

"I didn't expect the topic to go in this direction" Such is the way of serendipity and/or synchronicity. Very cool topic I have learned with each new post. In fact I didn't expect the topic to go in this direction either but I am glad it did.

 

"but rather this discussion is very much like water" ( Taoist like. )

Those who cannot put their thoughts on ice should not enter into the heat of the discussion. When water warms to a certain level it is said to SUBLIME. pun intended.

 

Iron sharpens iron. We aim above the mark to find the mark. MH , is that how they did it in the army?

Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions.

 

All things are subject to interpretation. whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is usually a function of power and not truth.

 

Now, to get back up to speed on this topic.

When one runs into a wall, look for a window or a door OR a GATE.

You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.

 

Careful where you cast your eggs , eggs are easily broken.

 

The modern science paradigm is shifting hard now, largely due to the influence of Geometry. We are in transition to a post modern science or a "more modern science" I think JoeBlast stated.

 

"I do not intend to change" (not taoist like )

[torus693]

hot water makes steam -the essence of consciousness. Conflict, resistance and disagreement come from mixing fire and water. Their result is metal, or truth

 

Edit: "Truth" is a way of saying 'belief' -experience that solidifies within consciousness.

Metal: an ion derived from steam

 

Edit/edit: metal ions are the magnetic potentially polarized (female/doubled) pro generative potential of all cosmos. I say 'progenerative' though this suggests 'male' energy because female is the actual decider in all interaction.

 

She is the one who makes our 'way'

 

Edit/edit.. edit: She is the value of creation, we are only the beginning.

 

polarities together -I am naught

 

..I await her Cue..

Edited March 23, 2011 by torus693

[Easy]

We're on the same page:)

I can't tell anyone what Tao is but i know through experience i am not separate from Tao.

Interchanging God and Tao - Kashmir Shavism states - Everything is God, there is nothing that is not God -that cannot be God.Everything in this universe - the known and the unknown world is God. Therefore both you and i are God. Everything is made from the same stuff. - I took a few liberties:)

 

That is a great sentiment Mythmaker, but what you say only tells us something about yourself. To say that everything is god or dao or green cheese or whatever robs each of them of any significant meaning. Any universalizing statement gives the reader neither effective nor essential information about god or dao or everything or green cheese. It says in effect 2+2 = 2+2. The significance of god or dao or green cheese lies only in their being distinct from everything else.

[torus693]

all polarities trine. the deciding factor, or force in outcome of conflict that includes plain communication (doubling of views) is an unseen force (implied intent) the mother hearkens to the fathers decree for the sake (she yields) of sanctity (the mother presence being supreme -the father's beaconing to her guidance. Sanctity is somthing the father cannot recognise without the mothers flawless, for lack of a better word 'coherency'

Edited March 23, 2011 by torus693

[torus693]

Mythmaker presents the unpolarized view (by intent)

[torus693]

Above verses below "implies" polarity and servitude (to a polarized mind)rather than balance with favor towards potency of perspective.

 

Dragon "YEILDS" to Phoenix in decree of HER presence..

 

"Ancient"

 

MODERN Now:

Edited March 23, 2011 by torus693

[torus693]

There's a third part in between these two images.

This third part is Tao

[Marblehead]

Yes that is the mystery - the no time before the Big Bang when All appears to us to be one - just hanging out. Wuji

All was one, and all is one, and all will always be one. Different forms made of the same stuff - vibrating at different speeds.

Everything being cyclical, at some point the universe contracts and the cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

 

Yes. I do hold to the Taoist concepts of reversion and cycles.

[Marblehead]

MH,

 

Nice post, good clarification.

 

You are a man of apparent faithful belief in the abstract.

 

I was born in 1944. I spent the first 15 years of my professional life as an investigative journalist and after that another 18 years as a private investigator and after that I lived in Venezuela. Those three experiential stretches have taught me, and reinforced in me, that I would be insane and probably dead if I believed in anything other than what I can touch with my hands right here and right now. However I can entertain myself with the speculation that The Dao, as mankind imagined it, is a slightly more satisfying fantasy than mankind's imagination of god, but a fantasy in that very same vein nonetheless. It isn't as good as a story, but it makes a little more sense, at least to me as sensible stories go.

 

Different lives can agree to disagree, no?

 

Hi Easy,

 

Nice.

 

You know, I don't intend to downplay the importance of metaphysics (spirituality) in the life of people.

 

But, I will always speak to the suggestion that there is only 'one true way' to attain the experience of 'Oneness'. There are many paths and Christianity is just as good for some people as Buddhism is for others.

 

Yes, from what you said above you would be inclined to look at the concept of 'cause and effect'. We always know the effect because we experience it directly. But it is rare that we ever know all the variables that add up to the "cause".

 

In our own personal life we can create any 'cause' we wish to create. But this may not be consistent with the 'truth'.

[Marblehead]

edit- I would like to say that I understand what you're saying and I understand why you believe what you do and there's absolutely no need to agree with me about this, so if you want to just agree to disagree, I'm perfectly fine with that.

 

Yeah, sometimes in life it is better to just agree to disagree and let it go.

 

The problem with discussions such as this is that they can become very personal and hit upon our root befiefs and none of us want our root beliefs insulted or discredited.

 

Respect.

[Marblehead]

Wooooooooooow. I never would have survived these 8 pages.

 

 

Hi Blasto,

 

Nice seeing you join the discussion.

 

BTW Nice post.

[Easy]

Hello Easy,

 

If we've had enough metaphysics, then we must have enough of Qi and other aspects that defy normal scientific definition. So my question is, are we only to have enough of those things you define as metaphysics, or those things that are defined by science as metaphysics?

 

Aaron,

 

When I googled "scientific measurement of qi" I was directed to a number of different studies that indicated that qi, as bio-electrical energy, could be measured. Or, in other words, qi is physical. I am not a highly trained practitioner in any manner of speaking but my experience with qi development in internal alchemy and medical qi gung gave me the phenomenological sense that it is physical energy. I always assumed that this was a given among expert practitioners also.

 

My use of the word metaphysics goes more toward the realm of mythology.

 

The experience of which you wrote, my similar experiences, are definitely real. They are actual happenings. But I do not think it is useful anymore to contextualize them in mythological terms.

[Marblehead]

In our current manifestation tao is a result of form.

 

"formless form" should be taken literally. The formless form is not visible in this dimension of duality, but it is definitely a form. It has boundary and very precise geometry. The force of Tao that sets everything in motion come from the "formless form" The source of that force is true emptiness which cannot be sensed or experienced from within a polarized reality. The polarity must stop first, then the formless form makes its self known to higher mind. The veils of resistance the hide Tao or god from human perception are the layers of matters that comprise all forms.

 

Tao cannot be sensed by the ego or mind and mush of the self is bound to polarized perspectives called beliefs.

 

Hi Torus,

 

I'm still not secure with what you are pointing at.

 

Let me express my understanding and then perhaps you can speak to what I say from your mind.

 

Tao gave birth to the One; One gave birth to the Two; Two gave birth to the Three; Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand Things.

 

That is, Tao gave birth to pure energy (One), pure energy gave birth to potential (Two, the Mystery), pure energy and potential gave birth to the process of manifestation (Three). (Three is the Mother of all things.) The Mother gave birth to all physicality in the universe.

 

It wasn't until the Mother gave birth that there was shape and form.

 

The "formless form", in my mind is Mystery - potential. And I agree with you, we cannot detect potential until it has become manifest. Until it manifests it can become any thing or remain no thing.

 

I have a problem with the concept of 'true emptiness' because my mind relates it to 'absolute nothingness' which truely does not exist because as soon as you try to look for it you create 'somethingness'.

[Marblehead]

there are two forms rising from Tao that establish the geometry of the gate through which the force of the formlessness makes its presence within polarized "reality"

 

One of those forms is accurately described as Chaos -like a fractal pattern.

Not chaos with a negative tense. This is the beatific vision, the mother.

 

I think you got pretty darn close to it with that post. Yea!!!!!

[Marblehead]

We aim above the mark to find the mark. MH , is that how they did it in the army?

 

Yep. And that is because over distance gravity will pull the projectile back down to earth. The greater the distance the greater the pull downward.

 

Likewise with our journey toward enlightenment (whatever that is). We need to aim high because all our old dogma (and Truths that have been fed us) are going to pull us down.

 

You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.

 

I like that. It is also consistent with one theory (which I hold to) of learning.

[Marblehead]

Aaron,

 

When I googled "scientific measurement of qi" I was directed to a number of different studies that indicated that qi, as bio-electrical energy, could be measured. Or, in other words, qi is physical. I am not a highly trained practitioner in any manner of speaking but my experience with qi development in internal alchemy and medical qi gung gave me the phenomenological sense that it is physical energy. I always assumed that this was a given among expert practitioners also.

 

My use of the word metaphysics goes more toward the realm of mythology.

 

The experience of which you wrote, my similar experiences, are definitely real. They are actual happenings. But I do not think it is useful anymore to contextualize them in mythological terms.

 

Interesting that it is said the Chi (qi) is measurable. We have all seen those picture of people who have halos around their head or body. This is, in my thinking, the person's personal Chi. Many say that they can see this energy. I am not one of them but I do believe it is possible. I know I have 'felt' other peoples' Chi.

[torus693]

there is no tao in a man who does not experientially know that shape.

Tao has to be brought out of the shape Atom that is a little too round.

Atom has to flatten out a bit become more curved like an eve. It's a mixing of

polarized perspectives that have geometry that blend light from the mother in

complimentary and opposite ways. The problem is an assumption that tao is something

automatically accessible by everyone through contemplation, feeling or sensing -it is not. It is an acquisition paid for at the highest price the loss of self

there is no solace in this, no spiritual success.

 

My link

Edited March 23, 2011 by torus693

[Marblehead]

there is no tao in a man who does not experientially know that shape.

Tao has to be brought out of the shape Atom that is a little too round.

Atom has to flatten out a bit become more curved like an eve. It's a mixing of

polarized perspectives that have geometry that blend light from the mother in

complimentary and opposite ways. The problem is an assumption that tao is something

automatically accessible by everyone through contemplation, feeling or sensing -it is not. It is an acquisition paid for at the highest price the loss of self

there is no solace in this, no spiritual success.

 

My link

 

That's way too complicated. Hehehe. Just be and you are there.

[zerostao]

 

i am starting to think about a solenoid that has been connected at the ends

to become the basic torus shape.

 

Edited March 23, 2011 by zerostao

[Marblehead]

 

i am starting to think about a solenoid that has been connected at the ends

to become the basic torus shape.

 

 

No capire. Care to explain that a little more?