[TTC Study] Chapter 29 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[devoid]

Hi Marblehead,

 

As always - thanks for posting. I'll try throwing in an interpretation:

 

This chapter speaks very much to balance and seeking balance within what is given / available to us. I think this chapter can easily be misunderstood as a call for non-action, whereas in reality it is not. Rather it is a reminder that there are many things that we cannot change no matter how hard we may want to - instead of trying to run around and change the things we can't we should instead learn to live with them.

 

By being pliable and adapting to the forces around us we can find opportunity in what may otherwise be interpreted solely as irritation. I wish that the chapter would have been rounded off with a note on that, but well...

[Marblehead]

This chapter speaks very much to balance and seeking balance within what is given / available to us. I think this chapter can easily be misunderstood as a call for non-action, whereas in reality it is not. Rather it is a reminder that there are many things that we cannot change no matter how hard we may want to - instead of trying to run around and change the things we can't we should instead learn to live with them.

 

By being pliable and adapting to the forces around us we can find opportunity in what may otherwise be interpreted solely as irritation. I wish that the chapter would have been rounded off with a note on that, but well...

 

Yeah, shortly after I retired I made a point of looking at how I viewed problems in my life. I settled on putting all my problems in two baskets: one the problems I could do something about and two, the (perceived) problems I could do nothing about. Those I could do something about I acted on thereby eliminating the problems. The ones I could do nothing about I either put out of my mind or worked around them.

 

And I can assure you, it is a wonderful feeling knowing (or at least thinking) that we have no problems.

[dawei]

Chapter 29

 

John Wu

The world is a sacred vessel, which must not be tampered with or grabbed after.

To tamper with it is to spoil it, and to grasp it is to lose it.

 

 

English/Feng

The universe is sacred.

You cannot improve it.

If you try to change it, you will ruin it.

 

 

Robert Henricks

The world is a sacred vessel;

It is not something that can be acted upon.

Those who act on it destroy it;

 

天 下 神 器 - All World Spirit vessel

不 可 為 也 - cannot act also

為 者 敗 之 - act'ist defeats

 

I prefer 'The word is a spiritual vessel'.

 

Sacred sounds too much like what is applied to animals or a mountain as homage. I think LZ has more spiritual aspirations. Within the spiritual realm, acting (doing, trying) is self-defeating since it is really without form or substance; nothing to 'act' on. I personally think LZ is trying to point out that the earthly existence is but a spiritual one. Many are living earthly existence; this is a spiritual existence. That's why the sage avoids earthly ways (last lines).

[Marblehead]

Interesting view Dawei.

 

I looked for support for what you have presented and this is the best I came up with:

 

Wayne Wang, Dynamic Tao, Chapter 29, Line 3

 

All under heaven are vessels of Tao, ...

 

He notes to this line: The world is a vessel for the manifestation of Tao.

 

 

Derek Lin's line 3 uses the word "sacred" but in his notes says: As Native American spiritual traditions demonstrate, when we revere the sanctity of the world, we naturally feel a deep connection with nature and see ourselves as a part of it, not apart from it.

 

 

James Legge translates it as: The kingdom is a spirit-like thing, ...

 

 

So even though I don't necessarily agree with your suggestion that Lao Tzu had more spiritual aspirations I think your understanding could be well supported.

[rene]

Sacred sounds too much like what is applied to animals or a mountain as homage. I think LZ has more spiritual aspirations. Within the spiritual realm, acting (doing, trying) is self-defeating since it is really without form or substance; nothing to 'act' on. I personally think LZ is trying to point out that the earthly existence is but a spiritual one. Many are living earthly existence; this is a spiritual existence. That's why the sage avoids earthly ways (last lines).

 

For me, existence is simultaneously earthly and spiritual, rather than either/or.

 

It might be that Laozi is suggesting in the last lines of Ch29 to avoid the extremes of earthly ways, rather than earthly ways in their entirety. Or as majc delightfully said in an earlier discussion - Without the spokes surrounding the empty space, there would be no cart to pull.

 

warm regards

[dawei]

For me, existence is simultaneously earthly and spiritual, rather than either/or.

That was my point. Maybe not enough reading between my [and LZ] lines. It is actually [at least] three realms, but who is counting. Edited April 5, 2011 by dawei

[alizais]

Often when I read this passage, I am reminded of all those people who want to save the world. These days, it's all about going green. There are many reasons for why people promote renewable energies, recycling, and reducing waste.

 

Some people seem to do this because they have respect for the environment around them. Who come to mind are some Japanese whose traditions, stemming from animism, believe that all around them have spirits. To recycle, to not waste, to use clean energy is a form of respect. It is a natural behavior resulting from a certain belief.

 

Some people seem to do this because they feel the world will become torturous to live in and they would like to prolong an enjoyable existence for future generations on earth. Meaning, the rainforests will die, global warming ("climate chaos") will reduce agricultural output and cause starvation, clean drinking water will become scarce, disastrous climate will take over like floods, tornadoes, etc., and pollution will prevail causing many diseases. Attempting to save the world is a natural behavior of those who want to exercise self preservation.

 

Some people seem to do this to go with the crowd and not be made guilty because it is now a "sin" to throw recyclables into the the trash bin. It is because they want to appear to be part of the predominant local political affiliation that they act "green". It is natural to want to go with the crowd.

 

No matter the reason, there are two ways to go about saving the world. One is to do so privately and without intruding on others' lives. The other is by fighting and spending a lot of energy and will to try to save the earth. They might have the same natural reasons to save the world but they argue and accuse, make a huge sensation out of waste and pollution. They try to topple existing powers by force.

 

Chapter 29 of the Dao De Jing seems to advise against the second type of forced, fighting behavior. Being active in saving the world is going to be useless using this method. People will see this act of confrontation and fight back. Certainly, it's happening now with the Republicans adamantly against any laws that will force companies or individuals to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

 

That is why I believe the saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." When I'm in a liberal area like the west coast or the north east, I will gladly put my waste in appropriate recycle bins. If I am further inland or in the south, I don't mind throwing all my waste in landfills. Because in the end, I can't improve a perfect universe and to try will only hurt it. I can only do what is natural to me. And to me, I like following the crowd.

Edited May 28, 2011 by alizais

[Marblehead]

Nice post Alizais. Thanks for sharing.

[on the path]

Hi,

it occurs to me that Lao Tzu (Lei Erh Xian Shi) in this chapter is basically telling us that the universe, life etc is all one inter-connected pool of matter and energy. This is the reason why we feel differently from one day to another and that this is natural and we must accept these things as part of being alive whoever we are. There seems to me to be many threads running through the Dao De Jhing. One of the sage who has gained more knowledge and is cultivating the Dao within themselves and the other, of not interfering with the way things are and so not creating imbalance. There is also,I feel, the secret of Immortality written in this book for those who understand.

It is a work, I feel, that has not been surpassed by any other Daoist writer in its simplicity and the imparting of real understanding and knowledge. Again I refer back to Master Flowing Hands book which for me simply takes away the inconsistencies and misunderstandings of being transcribed so many times since 600bc. His version is not a version as such, it is I believe, the true words of Lao Tzu. I quote from his book "a lot of what is written of his philosophy today has been wrongly translated, the meaning lost and not a true guide". This original book was available free some twenty years ago, I got mine from Kindred Spirit magazine in the UK.

[dawei]

Again I refer back to Master Flowing Hands book which for me simply takes away the inconsistencies and misunderstandings of being transcribed so many times since 600bc. His version is not a version as such, it is I believe, the true words of Lao Tzu. I quote from his book "a lot of what is written of his philosophy today has been wrongly translated, the meaning lost and not a true guide". This original book was available free some twenty years ago, I got mine from Kindred Spirit magazine in the UK.

Thanks for sharing this info. I searched and found a direct download of his translation here, for those interested:

 

http://www.life-in-crisis.info/dao-de-jhing.pdf

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I do like this Flowing hands translation (though it's not necessarily miles from the understanding available from other ones... edit: I take that back. Some word usages are definitely very different. Something wrong with my mind-mouth channel recently )

 

Here is his tranlation of Chapter 29

 

Do you think you can take over the Universe and then improve it?

It can never be done.

The Universe is sacred, it can never be improved.

If you try to change it, you will ruin it.

If you try to possess it, you will only lose it.

In the Ten Thousand Things, as well as man,

one never feels quite the same everyday.

So, sometimes things are ahead and sometimes behind.

Sometimes breathing becomes difficult, sometimes it is easy.

Sometimes there is strength and sometimes there is weakness.

Sometimes one feels up and cheerful, but sometimes one feels down.

This is natural; for we are all subject to the Heavenly bodies that influence our lives.

The Sage experiences these as well as ordinary men, for he is one of the Ten Thousand

Things.

 

 

What I understand from this is the way to be when following The Way. One must be as though they are handling a sacred object. They do not criticize the chipped paint, or the scratched surfaces, or the old dirt; they hold it reverently and with great love, respect, and admiration. The Tao must be approached in the same way.

 

It also makes me think of a fine hand drum. A master must become one with the drum in a way so that they do not interfere with natural sound that comes from this drum and the way it was put together. When they do this, they can discover most subtle nuances of sound within it, and bring them out, and even allow them to penetrate into the resonance of their own body. Tai Chi and Qi Gong masters will also understand this.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Apech]

I do like this Flowing hands translation (though it's not necessarily miles from the understanding available from other ones... edit: I take that back. Some word usages are definitely very different. Something wrong with my mind-mouth channel recently )

 

Here is his tranlation of Chapter 29

 

Do you think you can take over the Universe and then improve it?

It can never be done.

The Universe is sacred, it can never be improved.

If you try to change it, you will ruin it.

If you try to possess it, you will only lose it.

In the Ten Thousand Things, as well as man,

one never feels quite the same everyday.

So, sometimes things are ahead and sometimes behind.

Sometimes breathing becomes difficult, sometimes it is easy.

Sometimes there is strength and sometimes there is weakness.

Sometimes one feels up and cheerful, but sometimes one feels down.

This is natural; for we are all subject to the Heavenly bodies that influence our lives.

The Sage experiences these as well as ordinary men, for he is one of the Ten Thousand

Things.

 

 

What I understand from this is the way to be when following The Way. One must be as though they are handling a sacred object. They do not criticize the chipped paint, or the scratched surfaces, or the old dirt; they hold it reverently and with great love, respect, and admiration. The Tao must be approached in the same way.

 

It also makes me think of a fine hand drum. A master must become one with the drum in a way so that they do not interfere with natural sound that comes from this drum and the way it was put together. When they do this, they can discover most subtle nuances of sound within it, and bring them out, and even allow them to penetrate into the resonance of their own body. Tai Chi and Qi Gong masters will also understand this.

 

Interesting ending in this translation ... different form the others which suggest the Sage avoids extremes and so on.

 

How different this chapter is from Western psychology where the emphasis is on progress and making a mark on the world. Here it is saying you can't really do that. Many people in our societies would ridicule a person who behaved in the way this chapter suggests. All the more reason for thinking the Tao is profound and wise.

 

Actually it is so hard to be quiet and still and non -interfering when everything is shouting at you to 'take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them' to quote another bard.

[Stigweard]

Often when I read this passage, I am reminded of all those people who want to save the world. These days, it's all about going green. There are many reasons for why people promote renewable energies, recycling, and reducing waste.

 

Some people seem to do this because they have respect for the environment around them. Who come to mind are some Japanese whose traditions, stemming from animism, believe that all around them have spirits. To recycle, to not waste, to use clean energy is a form of respect. It is a natural behavior resulting from a certain belief.

 

Some people seem to do this because they feel the world will become torturous to live in and they would like to prolong an enjoyable existence for future generations on earth. Meaning, the rainforests will die, global warming ("climate chaos") will reduce agricultural output and cause starvation, clean drinking water will become scarce, disastrous climate will take over like floods, tornadoes, etc., and pollution will prevail causing many diseases. Attempting to save the world is a natural behavior of those who want to exercise self preservation.

 

Some people seem to do this to go with the crowd and not be made guilty because it is now a "sin" to throw recyclables into the the trash bin. It is because they want to appear to be part of the predominant local political affiliation that they act "green". It is natural to want to go with the crowd.

 

No matter the reason, there are two ways to go about saving the world. One is to do so privately and without intruding on others' lives. The other is by fighting and spending a lot of energy and will to try to save the earth. They might have the same natural reasons to save the world but they argue and accuse, make a huge sensation out of waste and pollution. They try to topple existing powers by force.

 

Chapter 29 of the Dao De Jing seems to advise against the second type of forced, fighting behavior. Being active in saving the world is going to be useless using this method. People will see this act of confrontation and fight back. Certainly, it's happening now with the Republicans adamantly against any laws that will force companies or individuals to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

 

That is why I believe the saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." When I'm in a liberal area like the west coast or the north east, I will gladly put my waste in appropriate recycle bins. If I am further inland or in the south, I don't mind throwing all my waste in landfills. Because in the end, I can't improve a perfect universe and to try will only hurt it. I can only do what is natural to me. And to me, I like following the crowd.

It's an interesting sentiment, the "no fighting" one that is. I am glad my white blood cells don't get all philosophical and decide that my body isn't worth fighting for.

 

[tragblack]

http://www.life-in-c...ao-de-jhing.pdf

 

Nice, thank you.

[woodcarver]

has anyone experienced clear consequences from trying to change the world?

[Marblehead]

has anyone experienced clear consequences from trying to change the world?

Hehehe. I have never tried changing the world. I have enough problems changing myself.

[woodcarver]

Hehehe. I have never tried changing the world. I have enough problems changing myself.

Uhg, you and me both

[dust]

Sacred sounds too much like what is applied to animals or a mountain as homage.

 

Indeed. Though it has never bothered me before, after thinking about some of that stuff in the ZZ thread, I cannot quite believe that all 3 of the quoted translations use "sacred".

 

In my opinion, whether or not Laozi is suggesting that 天下 is 'special' and should not be messed around with, the connotations of the word 'sacred' are too loaded, and too particular to Western tradition, to be used with regard to an entirely different Eastern religious/philosophical text like the Laozi.

 

I am thinking of cognates like sanctity, sanctify, sacrilege, sacrifice, sacrosanct, sacristy, sanctuary... all far too infused with Christian/Abrahamic religious suggestion to be used in connection with Daoism.

 

Aside from that, even if we look only at a very general definition of sacred, one aspect that we cannot escape is "set apart". Well...the world isn't set apart.  天下 cannot be set apart from itself, can it?

 

I would suggest that we need another term. Something to do with the spirit, soul, psyche, perhaps even emotions..

[Marblehead]

Well, just to give you something to consider,

 

Red Pine's Line 3 reads:

 

the world is a spiritual thing

 

 

And,

 

Wayne L Wang's reads:

 

All under heaven are vessels of Tao,

[dust]

Yees..

 

As far as Red Pine.. did LZ mean 'spiritual', with all of its connotations?

 

Legge uses "spirit-like thing"..which I think is much better, but still not quite there.

 

Wang seems to miss out the 'shen' 神 altogether..

[Marblehead]

Nice to have the questions.

Yees..

 

As far as Red Pine.. did LZ mean 'spiritual', with all of its connotations?

Red Pine references many commentators regarding this line.  Perhaps the best one is:

 

LU HUI-CH'ING says, "The world as a thing is a spiritual thing.  Only the spiritual Tao can control a spiritual thing.  Spiritual things don't think or act.  Trying to control them with force is not the Tao."

 

Wang seems to miss out the 'shen' 神 altogether..

Wayne does footnote that line with:

 

The world is a vessel for the manifestation of Tao.

 

 

 

Edit to add:

 

Wayne does avoid the spiritual aspects of the TTC as much as possible.  His translation was done with "science" being a determining factor as to how certain words should be translated.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Marblehead

[dawei]

Wayne does footnote that line with:

 

The world is a vessel for the manifestation of Tao.

 

I find it a bit clever to have used Dao... and what was the first manifestations?  Spirits (?).  Likely the immaterial came before the material and why it makes sense to see spiritual understanding to be more anciently than religion.

[Marblehead]

I find it a bit clever to have used Dao... and what was the first manifestations?  Spirits (?).  Likely the immaterial came before the material and why it makes sense to see spiritual understanding to be more anciently than religion.

Wayne does speak a lot about "wu", as in the spiritual aspect of "all that is", not only regarding the evolution of the universe but also the human aspect of "wu".

 

But yes, based on his introduction, spirit (wu) came before physically tangible (yu), "yu" being a subset of "wu".

 

So yes, even though he did not use a word similar to "sacred" or "spirit" it was there within the word "Tao" never the less.

[Taoist Texts]

the sacred implement 神器 can refer either to this

 

 

Nine Tripods

 

 

or this

 

 

 

Bronze Yue (Axe) with Tiger Design