Does the Tao speak through plant teachers?

[sweeney]

A query. The Dao is everything, the whole (multi)universe and that The Dao that can be spoken of is not the true Dao. Yet Masters Lao and Chaung went on to write about it, quite a lot! As the Dao is in everything (because everything is it) could we surmise that as a Taoist and you took Peyote, Psilocybin, or Yage would you be able to commune with the Dao? After all the (this)universe is intelligent hence our collective so called human intelligence (somewhat lacking enough wisdom these days) and communication is widespread throughout nature in various forms ie dolphins, dancing bees, flashing cuttlefish etc. So to communicate is part of the Dao. I cite Peter Lambourne Wilson aka Hakim Bey for putting this question in my head. Can any fellow Bums tell me of wisdom gained from ingestion of plant psychoactives from a Taoist perspective?

 

Hakim Bey TAZ

 

P L Wilson Ploughing the Clouds, the search for Irish Soma

[fizix]

Through mushrooms, I learned that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, that we are the imagination of ourselves... that life and death is but an eternal dream... no beginning, no end... we are all God/Tao, and love is the greatest power/energy of the universe, and that is what we are here to experience... the human race is slowly awakening itself to its true nature, that we are but spiritual splinters of a One (Tao) great being of infinite intelligence and love... meditation opens us to the wisdom of the universal mind, cosmic intelligence, increases our energetic vibrational frequency in ascension to unity.

Edited March 18, 2011 by fizix

[Taomeow]

Ayahuasca's main message (and she made me understand it's the main message to humanity, me personally being given it only in the context of my being a member of humanity, not because it's my personal issue to any greater or lesser extent than anyone else's... though of course to make any lesson sink in, it is made intensely personal by this deity, because we humans really get it only in this shape and form, as something intensely personal... comes with the territory of being human...) --

 

as I started saying before I digressed into the brackets, the main message was, "Do Not Abuse Power." Funny how it never made it to the ten commandments or any other do's and don't's of religious, scientific, etc. paradigms of "civilized" humanity, the one that the Mother of the Universe presented as the main one. There's no "Thou Shalt Not Abuse Power" in any scriptures I was aware of before her lesson, and among other things, this sort of validated my lack of grokking of any and all institutionalized religions and sciences that don't follow this principle. They all miss the point, or rather, omit it on purpose, and the purpose is not pretty.

 

Later, I was surprised and delighted to find this very idea as the central thought among the teachings of gnostics who emphasized direct personal knowledge of the divinity without intermediaries. (This is what sacred plants provide, at least when used in the sacred, aka "uncivilized," context, without the semi-artificial demiurge, the archon, standing between the experiencer and the source and transmogrifying the experience toward its own purposes.) They believed we live in a dualistic set-up with two gods, the god of love and the god of power. They believed love absolutely excludes power. This is not what I would agree with, but at least I know that someone was still able to discern the main issue of creation and of the human predicament in it -- power -- as recently as the 12th century! Of course the Catholic church promptly unleashed a crusade against them (even though they were Europeans and, at least pro forma, Christians) that lasted for forty years with ferocity of relentless genocide, wiping the heresy and tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of its adherents off the face of the earth. Talk about abuse of power.

 

Oh, and by the way, have you noticed the crusade never stopped?..

[Astral Monk]

Psychotropics are interesting in themselves, but just as easily as one can experience something seemingly profound one can be lead astray into nonsense. Are they 'teachers'? Probably more like tricksters--you'll learn something, but it might not be a 'truth'.

 

Meanwhile, why limit it to psychotropics? All plants can aid us as we learn to harmonize with their affects. Every plant substance interacts with our bodies in a unique way, and it takes a keen and subtle awareness to perceive many of these interactions. Traditional herbs have as much to say about learning the way as magic mushrooms!

 

8)

[Gerard]

Spirits associated with healing plants speak for the Dao and communicate with us: human beings and animals.

[Otis]

Absolutely agreed that being altered does not necessarily deliver one to "truth".

 

But what the plants offer is still profound and potentially extremely valuable: they allow me to be something other than "me". They do not deliver me to the "right" perspective; quite the opposite. They teach me that there is no such thing as a "right" perspective, and that humbling my sense of "right" is one of the best things I can do for myself. They teach me that there is joy and inspiration in unexpected places, when I stop being myself.

 

They also teach me about my fears, about my self-consciousness, about my illusory stories about "people" and "the world" and even "myself". They help show me that my beliefs up to this point are largely due to accidental causes, and are nothing special. They show me that those beliefs stand between me, and freedom.

 

They reveal that my beliefs in human hierarchy are exactly what keeps me trapped as being "lesser than". And that all I need to do to be free of the burden of "not being good enough" is to stop putting myself above others.

 

They give me new perspective on my emotional storms, seeing them as weather, and not as my programming. They help me realize that my senses are capable of much more than I ever ask of them.

 

They give me perspective on my consciousness, exhibiting the fragmented and often contentious nature of the various parts of my brain. They help suggest a way out of that inner conflict, by learning to accept.

 

They help me forget myself, for awhile, so I have the chance to live for a little while from somewhere new, somewhere unexpected. They help teach me to live as energy, in the unknown.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Otis

[Taomeow]

Absolutely agree that "all" plants are teachers... "Sacred" ones are different in that we have receptors in the brain tuned in to their teachings and can translate them into human comprehension more readily than the teachings of those plants that don't concern themselves specifically with our species, but in the grand scheme of things, "all" plants are sacred. Love McKenna's view of biology: "Animals are something plants invented in order to move seeds around." So true, so hilariously exactly right!

 

I had a dream once, one of those which I recognize as "dreamtime dreams," as real as waking reality only more so. The context was weird (as often is the case with dreams): I was making a speech in front of an audience, advocating country living vs. urban or suburban, and couldn't come up with anything but platitudes -- "well, you get fresh air... more greenery... fresh produce... less pollution... fresh air..." when a loud and clear voice from the back of the audience offered, "And the pig squeak, don't forget the pig squeak!" I was very surprised but repeated sheepishly, yeah, OK, and the pig squeak... I woke up perplexed, with an urgent "don't forget the pig squeak" in my mind for no good reason. I told about the dream to a bunch of people online, and someone responded, "pig squeak is the name of a flower, a decorative garden plant." I googled up a picture and...

 

OK, I recognized it. This plant grew in my back yard, right under the wall of the house, but I didn't plant it there, it planted itself. I didn't know what it was, maybe a weed? -- and I was thinking of pulling it out, but then decided to sort of ignore it and see what it turns into come summer. So when I put two and two together, I realized that the dream was induced by this plant, and it was asking me to water it. Don't forget the pig squeak! Since it's not a psychedelic plant, it had no other chance to penetrate my consciousness than to enter it in dreamtime, and since it's normally not a talking plant, it expressed itself briefly, but did succeed "planting a seed" of understanding, which flowered in my mind the next day, with a little research. The plant itself flowered a couple of weeks later (of course I started watering it daily), pretty pink flowers, pig squeak... beautiful. And quite entirely mind-blowing, come to think of it.

[Dagon]

I know this may sound wierd, but I had a tree tell me a story.

 

He told me about a man, (unlike me) that used to live by him when he was a sappling. The man was staying in a tunnel and went around chopping at the tree's with his knife, for no other reason than to chop it. He made his way towards this sappling and tripped over the tree's root, tumbling down an incline and cutting himself with the knife. The man was never seen from again.

 

I agree that we are all inter-connected, because I told the tree when I was giving him metta that the other tree's were going to be jealous. He let me know that the love is shared amongst them all.

 

I think he told me this story because I was worried when I pulled some of his bark off where my back rests.

 

Edited March 19, 2011 by Dagon

[Dagon]

Here he is. Pictures really don't do him justice.

 

 

 

And his roots.

 

 

Can only show the thumbnails, do you have an upload feature for pics here?

Edited March 19, 2011 by Dagon

[Marblehead]

Leave the freakin' mind-altering drugs and alcohol alone!!!!!!!

 

(Yes, there was a Taoist sect that spent their life blasted but they don't count, IMO.)

[Dagon]

Yeah, I was sober

 

Normally i wouldn't share this story with people, but it feels ok here.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I was sober

 

Normally i wouldn't share this story with people, but it feels ok here.

 

Hehehe. Just checkin'.

 

Yes, I talk with my plants sometimes too.

[Dagon]

You can prob communicate better if you don't consider it yours. ahaha.

[Birch]

"Mine" scream at me from the other end of the room when I don't water them enough. Or they grumble when I pass and I feel compelled to get the watering can.

 

One of them had slowly been growing into a monster, like the part of the room it was in wasn't big enough. It started pushing things off the shelf (very slowly, but you get the idea). I don't know what to do with it now. Take it to a proper hothouse?

[Dagon]

Sounds more like your the plants human, .

[manitou]

I've never used mushrooms but would love to. Never ayahuasca either.

 

But I did reintroduce cannabis into my life a few years ago for PTSD reasons. I didn't smoke it like an idiot, like I did when I was a kid - just enough to keep the anxiety level within manageable limits. What I found as a side effect was that it produced a real nice mind expansion when it came to seeing spiritual connections. It's as though it places you on a perch that you don't normally sit on and see things from a different perspective.

 

This just can't be described to someone - it's almost like the Tao. All it takes is one or two drags off a smoke to see exactly what people are talking about. The first remark is usually "Wow! Oh, yeah!", as though it's a place they remember but haven't been to for a very long time. I wouldn't close off my mind to mind altering substances if used wisely - not like an immature teenager. Personally, I think things like cannabis and mushrooms and those substances that come out of the ground were given to man for a reason. It's only Big Pharma that wants to keep it illegal...."Let US combine something together for you and sell it to you....No, be sure you don't smoke that shit that God gives us free for the asking."

[ralis]

 

as I started saying before I digressed into the brackets, the main message was, "Do Not Abuse Power."

 

 

That is a very broad generalization and without a specific context has no meaning. This so called message you have for humanity is nothing new and has been debated in philosophical and religious circles for centuries. Every culture has it's own concept of power and what abuse of power is and is not. That is the problem with relying on altered states, whether from plants or meditative practices. The visionary experiences are somehow seen as objective fact and may quickly become dogma.

 

Banisteriopsis caapi 'Ayahuasca' is a medicine used by shamans of the Amazonian rain forest for specific applications which involve healing and survival of the tribal cultures in that particular area. Taken out of context like so many Westerners do, makes no sense. Why? Hallucinating indigenous species (Jaguars etc.) of the Amazonian jungles while sitting in an apartment in NY, is just plain crazy and has no meaning in that context. I suppose that kind of experience has great entertainment value. Does that experience offer any wisdom or healing while sitting in NY?

 

The reason I object to your statement on abuse of power, is that I have no need to take that kind of risk when I can think in a critical manner as to what is abusive or not. Although, my view of an abusive act may be different than your point of view.

 

One example that comes to mind is one that took place with a therapist here in Santa Fe. This particular hot shot therapist felt she knew it all in spite of limited experiences leading groups on Ayahuasca trips. She led a group in Indiana and made a fatal mistake. One of the participants was taking MAO inhibitors and died from convulsions during the ceremony. The therapist is now serving a prison term. My point is, most have no idea that tryptamines are powerful MAO inhibitors and great caution must be exercised before taking any beta-carboline harmala alkaloids and MAOI's.

Edited March 19, 2011 by ralis

[Otis]

Agreed, Manitou. Teenagers are the most likely group to experiment, but are also the least likely to get something positive out of it. My experience and relationship with weed as a teenager was totally different than when I became re-acquainted with the plant, in my 30s. Of course, all of our drug policy is based around our fear that teenagers will use.

 

The birth of Republicanism: the fear that my kids are going to do the same things I did, when I was young.

[ralis]

Agreed, Manitou. Teenagers are the most likely group to experiment, but are also the least likely to get something positive out of it. My experience and relationship with weed as a teenager was totally different than when I became re-acquainted with the plant, in my 30s. Of course, all of our drug policy is based around our fear that teenagers will use.

 

The birth of Republicanism: the fear that my kids are going to do the same things I did, when I was young.

 

The drug policies cover the entire spectrum of politicians with their corporate and religious handlers. Their excuse is what was termed the "Cult of the Holy Child" and adults must be kept in check to protect the helpless children from drugs, porn and online poker. This propaganda is a smoke screen to institute a return to feudalism and fascism.

[Dagon]

This is only a personal perspective on the mushrooms in question, by no means is this advice to use it.

 

I found that they increase my energy by like a hundred fold. I have never been out of control on them, and have always felt euphoric.

 

Sometimes I see things but it is very vague and ill defined. Like a fleeting picture.

 

The only bad feeling I have gotten was when comming down and wishing it wasn't over already.

[ralis]

This is only a personal perspective on the mushrooms in question, by no means is this advice to use it.

 

I found that they increase my energy by like a hundred fold. I have never been out of control on them, and have always felt euphoric.

 

Sometimes I see things but it is very vague and ill defined. Like a fleeting picture.

 

The only bad feeling I have gotten was when comming down and wishing it wasn't over already.

 

A very common experience.

[Dagon]

I should aslo mention that I was already awakened when I took them. I did not use them to awaken.

[Marblehead]

You can prob communicate better if you don't consider it yours. ahaha.

 

One point for you. Hehehe.

[Taomeow]

That is a very broad generalization and without a specific context has no meaning. This so called message you have for humanity is nothing new and has been debated in philosophical and religious circles for centuries. Every culture has it's own concept of power and what abuse of power is and is not. That is the problem with relying on altered states, whether from plants or meditative practices. The visionary experiences are somehow seen as objective fact and may quickly become dogma.

 

Banisteriopsis caapi 'Ayahuasca' is a medicine used by shamans of the Amazonian rain forest for specific applications which involve healing and survival of the tribal cultures in that particular area. Taken out of context like so many Westerners do, makes no sense. Why? Hallucinating indigenous species (Jaguars etc.) of the Amazonian jungles while sitting in an apartment in NY, is just plain crazy and has no meaning in that context. I suppose that kind of experience has great entertainment value. Does that experience offer any wisdom or healing while sitting in NY?

 

The reason I object to your statement on abuse of power, is that I have no need to take that kind of risk when I can think in a critical manner as to what is abusive or not. Although, my view of an abusive act may be different than your point of view.

 

One example that comes to mind is one that took place with a therapist here in Santa Fe. This particular hot shot therapist felt she knew it all in spite of limited experiences leading groups on Ayahuasca trips. She led a group in Indiana and made a fatal mistake. One of the participants was taking MAO inhibitors and died from convulsions during the ceremony. The therapist is now serving a prison term. My point is, most have no idea that tryptamines are powerful MAO inhibitors and great caution must be exercised before taking any beta-carboline harmala alkaloids and MAOI's.

 

Um... who or what are you arguing with? The thread is about plant teachers. I didn't offer a "point of view," I repeated verbatim what a plant teacher told me. If you want to shoot the messenger, fine, but this doesn't quite rid you of the fact that the plant teacher did give this messenger this message. And if you want to take it up with Mother of the Universe and explain to her how wrong she is, I can put you in touch with a shaman in Peru. The first thing he will tell you will be, if you are taking MAO inhibitors, you can't be here.

 

The stories like the one you told are made up by the dozen, but the funny thing is, they never provide the actual name of the purported victim. Not a single documented case. MAO inhibitors et al, in the meantime, kill about 3 million people worldwide every year. Or at least that was the statistics from some fifteen years ago when I read researcher Thomas Moore's "Prescription for Disaster." The figures must have changed for the worse by now -- the drugs (that's drugs, patented concoctions, not plants) have proliferated way deeper and wider since then.

[Jetsun]

My experience of Cannabis when I used to smoke it regularly was that I initially thought it was teaching me things by cutting through a lot of falsities in life to reveal what is more true, for example cheesy false things on tv and radio were unbearable, I remember watching Cocktail with Tom Cruise and it being physically uncomfortable to watch because of the false cheese. So I thought it was teaching me see reality more clearly, but after a while I realised that I was becoming apathetic about much of life, it was sapping a lot of my drive and spirit, so I think some of these plants or allies may aid you at a cost, some of them may charge a price which may not be worth paying.