Three critical issues in Taoist alchemy

[exorcist_1699]

There are 3 issues that in Taoist alchemy people, more precisely speaking, the Chinese, recognize as critical :

 

1) What is the "medicine " (葯)and how to absorb/assimilate it ? Calling it " medicine" simply because people believe that there is a dose of medicine existing in this cosmos which can heal aging and nearly all diseases. Usually,the medicine is boiled by " fire" ( Shen ),making it "drinkable" for people to attain eternity .

 

2) The place /container issue (爐鼎): The medicine is said to be put in a stove/bowl for "boiling " , but where ? Some people think that it is done in emptiness , others say that it is right in the middle of the human body.

 

3) The steps/ heating control issue(火候) : It is viewed as the most secret part of Taoist alchemy and should never be put in black and white. They are keys mainly related to physical/bodily aspects in the process ...( Some Taoist writings in recent centuries in fact already break part of the taboos )

Edited March 23, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[宁]

( Some Taoist writings in recent centuries in fact already break part of the taboos )

 

...why the taboos existed in the first place, and what writings are you reffering to?

[exorcist_1699]

...why the taboos existed in the first place, and what writings are you reffering to?

 

-Although Tao exists everywhere ,even in dirty and humble status, it is argued that the truth about it is noble, deep and magnificent, unlikely to be understood by people with a shallow mind and indecent behavior ; So, some people should not be endowed with the right to hear it , otherwise it is some kind of blasphemy .

 

In fact, there are quite a lot of hazards in the process, it might have given lot of misfortunes to these people, had they known the steps and carelessly started the practice . I think people should be given the load that they can undertake ( maybe little similar to what is said in the movie Spiderman: the more powerful you are, the more the responsibility you have to take ..)..

 

-Mainly books written by those masters from :

 

1) the Wu-Liu School , figures such as Liu Hua Yang and Zhao Bi Chen (趙避塵)

2) the West School , figure like Wang Dong Ting ( 汪東亭)

Edited March 23, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[The Way Is Virtue]

Mainly books written by those masters from:

1) the Wu-Liu School , figures such as Liu Hua Yang and Zhao Bi Chen (趙避塵)

2) the West School , figure like Wang Dong Ting ( 汪東亭)

 

Have you read the book "Wuzhen pian danfa yaozhi" 「悟真篇」丹法要旨 by Wang Mu, or do you know anything much about Wang Mu? Fabrizio Pregadio has just released an English translation of this book.

( http://www.goldenelixir.com/press/tao_01_foundations.html )

The concepts of 'superior virtue' and 'inferior virtue' in relation to different practice requirements and approaches is very interesting. It would seem to support the idea that what is expressed in texts like the Dao De Jing do indeed have different meanings encoded into them, depending on the perspective and understanding. The writings by Liu Yiming (1734-1821) have also helped to clarify a lot of concepts as well, I believe.

 

I think another thing to consider in regards to internal alchemy is that it requires a real commitment to practrice it. I'm not so sure that if someone is only practicing meditation for an hour or two a day if they would really have much chance of getting very far in this sort of practice. I believe there are periods where one has to meditate full time for extended periods of time as well. I guess a person can at least work on laying the foundaton as best as they can by practicing yangsheng practices along with meditation practice, and then start practicing more in depth once they have retired.

 

Do you know much about the differences in approach or practices between the West school of internal alchemy and other scools/sects?

Edited March 23, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[NeiChuan]

 

I think another thing to consider in regards to internal alchemy is that it requires a real commitment to practice it. I'm not so sure that if someone is only practicing meditation for an hour or two a day if they would really have much chance of getting very far in this sort of practice.

 

Are you saying they aren't doing enough a day? Because very often the people who do 3 - 5 hours consistently, then just quit..

 

I think 1 or 2 hours a day for years till you learn your next lesson is much better, then 1 or 2 years of 3-4 hours and then stopping all together.

[fizix]

Are you saying they aren't doing enough a day? Because very often the people who do 3 - 5 hours consistently, then just quit..

 

I think 1 or 2 hours a day for years till you learn your next lesson is much better, then 1 or 2 years of 3-4 hours and then stopping all together.

One or two hours of consistent practice a day is certainly going to progress one along the path, perhaps not as quickly or deeply as 3-4, but if the practice in question is legitimate, 1-2 hours will result in good attainment.... as previously said, it is much better to practice consistently at this rate rather than over-practice and burn oneself out, as is a common issue among cultivators. Remember, practice can be done 24 hours a day.... while driving, on the bus, walking, sleeping, eating, exercising, at work.... keep the mind clear and centered, the breathing conscious deep and in rhythm...

[The Way Is Virtue]

Are you saying they aren't doing enough a day? Because very often the people who do 3 - 5 hours consistently, then just quit..

 

I think 1 or 2 hours a day for years till you learn your next lesson is much better, then 1 or 2 years of 3-4 hours and then stopping all together.

 

This is hard to answer because, for one thing, not everyone is speaking about the same thing when they use the term 'internal alchemy'. There are different practices from different traditions that may all use this term but from what I have gathered the actual practices and approaches and even goals and such can be quite different. In general though, I wouldn't doubt that many people can at least make some degree of real progress towards health improvement and longevity with one or two hours of meditation a day, depending on the exact practices, but in some internal alchemy traditions at least there will be stages where a person will be meditating for extended periods of time. I have read about one practitioner for example from a quanzhen tradition that would meditate all night long every night even though he was already quite old (his meditation took the place of his sleep). Also, just because someone has attained a high level of mastery over qi or attained some 'neigong' skill, it doesn't mean necessarily that they are practicing 'internal alchemy'. There are different levels of attainment as well, and practice patterns may change according to the level attained, so there are lots of variables.

Edited March 23, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[exorcist_1699]

Have you read the book "Wuzhen pian danfa yaozhi" 「悟真篇」丹法要旨 by Wang Mu, or do you know anything much about Wang Mu? Fabrizio Pregadio has just released an English translation of this book.

( http://www.goldenelixir.com/press/tao_01_foundations.html )

The concepts of 'superior virtue' and 'inferior virtue' in relation to different practice requirements and approaches is very interesting. It would seem to support the idea that what is expressed in texts like the Dao De Jing do indeed have different meanings encoded into them, depending on the perspective and understanding. The writings by Liu Yiming (1734-1821) have also helped to clarify a lot of concepts as well, I believe.

 

 

I know the guy Wang Mu and read some of his works.

 

I absolutely agree that the issue superior virtue and inferior virtue is too important to be ignored . In fact, only the superior virtue can make use of Zen's method,those who are inferior virtue, no matter how hard they try , are unlikely to succeed( sadly most who try the method are doomed to fall into the trap of pseudo-void , but mistakenly think that they are achieving something ... )

 

In Taoist terms , that means the superior virtue can skip over jing and qi, and directly start from the stage of refining Shen...

 

Liu YiMing is nearly the best, among those masters , who explains clearly the basic principles of Taoist alchemy , however, only very few of his works are translated into English.

Edited March 24, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hi exorcist, thanks for the comments...

[joeblast]

There are 3 issues that in Taoist alchemy people, more precisely speaking, the Chinese, recognize as critical :

 

1) What is the "medicine " (葯)and how to absorb/assimilate it ? Calling it " medicine" simply because people believe that there is a dose of medicine existing in this cosmos which can heal aging and nearly all diseases. Usually,the medicine is boiled by " fire" ( Shen ),making it "drinkable" for people to attain eternity .

 

2) The place /container issue (爐鼎): The medicine is said to be put in a stove/bowl for "boiling " , but where ? Some people think that it is done in emptiness , others say that it is right in the middle of the human body.

 

3) The steps/ heating control issue(火候) : It is viewed as the most secret part of Taoist alchemy and should never be put in black and white. They are keys mainly related to physical/bodily aspects in the process ...( Some Taoist writings in recent centuries in fact already break part of the taboos )

If you dont already own Luk's Taoist Yoga, pick up a copy. This is all covered in detail.

[The Way Is Virtue]

If you dont already own Luk's Taoist Yoga, pick up a copy. This is all covered in detail.

 

Right. Exorcist did mention that the work by Zhao Bi Chen (趙避塵) helps clarify a lot as well, (this is the book that Charles Luk (Lu Kuan YU) translated as 'Taoist Yoga'). There are several works translated by Thomas Cleary as well that include translations of Liu Yiming's commentaries in regards to internal alchemy pratice. These are very helpful as well. Some of the quanzhen writings by people such as Zhang Boduan 張伯端 can be pretty much undecipherable otherwise. I would still suggest that a serious student should try to find a good teacher though, if possible, as otherwise one could run into problems that they can't solve on their own, or get off on a side track and not realize it, etc.

[joeblast]

yeah, dont need to be all...

 

 

...wait, was that a road sign back there?

 

 

cant just pull the ebrake and 180 it

[zerostao]

Right. Exorcist did mention that the work by Zhao Bi Chen (趙避塵) helps clarify a lot as well, (this is the book that Charles Luk (Lu Kuan YU) translated as 'Taoist Yoga'). There are several works translated by Thomas Cleary as well that include translations of Liu Yiming's commentaries in regards to internal alchemy pratice. These are very helpful as well. Some of the quanzhen writings by people such as Zhang Boduan 張伯端 can be pretty much undecipherable otherwise. I would still suggest that a serious student should try to find a good teacher though, if possible, as otherwise one could run into problems that they can't solve on their own, or get off on a side track and not realize it, etc.

i dont see anyone being able to be able to pull off the high levels of taoist alchemy without teachers/helpers.

[The Way Is Virtue]

i dont see anyone being able to be able to pull off the high levels of taoist alchemy without teachers/helpers.

 

Right, hence my comment about the importance of finding a good teacher.

[exorcist_1699]

Just some minor correction: Zhang Boduan does not belong to Quan Zhen School , in fact, both Dragon Gate and Quan Zhen schools are , judged by their heritages and methods of cultivation, belonged to the North School ( Quan Zhen rose and spread in Shangdong Province,which geographically is located in the north of the Yangtze River ) . The North school is quite influenced by the Buddhist ideas, so they emphasize on polishing people's Spirit first before paying attention to jing and qi . And, the place that their method start likely be from the upper dantian.

 

In fact, Zhang Boduan is the person who established the South School , which emphasizes the importance of accumulating and upgrading our jing and qi first, before polishing our Shen. This way of cultivation is likely more suitable for older guys who are aged over 50 . South school's method likely starts from the lower dantian...

 

I have to say, even Zhao Bi Chen, the bravest master in this arena, when presenting his delicate Taoist puzzle to the public ,does deliberately take out some blocks or blur the graphics on some blocks , so as to escape the criticisms from the Chinese Taoist circle or punishment from Heaven ?

Edited March 25, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[The Way Is Virtue]

Just some minor correction: Zhang Boduan does not belong to Quan Zhen School , in fact, both and Dragon Gate and Quan Zhen schools are , judged by their heritages and methods of cultivation, belonged to the North School ( Quan Zhen rose and spread in Shangdong Province,which geographically is north of the Yangtze River ) . The North school is influenced seriously by the Buddhist ideas, so they emphasize on polishing people's Spirit first before paying attention to jing and qi . And, the place that their method start likely be from the upper dantian.

On the other hand, Zhang Boduan is the person who established the South School , which emphasizes the importance of accumulating and upgrading our jing and qi first, before polishing our Shen. This way of cultivation is likely more suitable for older guys with age over 50 .

In fact, even the bravest guy, Zhao Bi Chen, in his delicate Taoist puzzle presenting to the public , there are some blocks deliberately taken out, or graphics on some blocks deliberately blurred, so as to escape , maybe the criticisms from the Chinese Taoist circle or punishment from Heaven ?

 

Hi Exorcist. Thanks for the clarification. It is interesting though that Zhang Boduan also seems to have been influenced or at least knowledgeable in Chan Buddhism as well. Interesting about the difference between the Northern and Southern schools. I was aware that Zhao Bi Chen's book probably doesn't cover all steps and also seems to scramble things in certain ways as well. At any rate, I think it is pretty much a given that one really requires a teacher to learn internal alchemy as there is no doubt so much more to it than what can be explained or understood from words alone. Books can help people to get some idea of what is involved in the practices, but except for perhaps a very rare individual I can't really see anyone cultivating to a high level in internal alchemy training without at least some guidance and assistance from an accomplished teacher.

 

Do you have any info on the West school of internal alchemy in regards to how it started and any notable differences in this tradition?

 

I have started reading the English translation of Wang Mu's commentary on the Wuzhen pian and internal alchemy. It apparently was originally written as a two part article for a Chinese publication and later was also published as an included commentary on a book publication of the Wuzhen pian as well. It appears to be a kind of an overview of internal alchemy, but it seems to be written in a way that still would require some level of prior knowlwedge of internal alchemy and intenal alchemy concepts. I am only about one third of the way into the book, but so far I would say that it seems that this book probably doesn't go into enough background detail for an absolute beginner to internal alchemy concepts to really follow everything that is being discussed. For example various taoist writings are frequently referenced in the text but no explanation is given on what exactly is being referenced, although the translator has added some notes to help clarify the source of many of these references.

 

At any rate, much of the concepts in internal alchemy are apparently not easily explainable or relatable in words anyway so this may be part of the reason that concepts in such writings are often conveyed using much symbolism and pictures and poetic analogy. If one tries to understand the concepts literally or linearly they aren't likely going to get very far it would seem. It seems that one has to really engage and use their intuitive mind when reading these sorts of writings to have much hope of delving into the deeper meanings.

Edited March 25, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Stigweard]

There are 3 issues that in Taoist alchemy people, more precisely speaking, the Chinese, recognize as critical :

 

1) What is the "medicine " (葯)and how to absorb/assimilate it ? Calling it " medicine" simply because people believe that there is a dose of medicine existing in this cosmos which can heal aging and nearly all diseases. Usually,the medicine is boiled by " fire" ( Shen ),making it "drinkable" for people to attain eternity .

 

2) The place /container issue (爐鼎): The medicine is said to be put in a stove/bowl for "boiling " , but where ? Some people think that it is done in emptiness , others say that it is right in the middle of the human body.

 

3) The steps/ heating control issue(火候) : It is viewed as the most secret part of Taoist alchemy and should never be put in black and white. They are keys mainly related to physical/bodily aspects in the process ...( Some Taoist writings in recent centuries in fact already break part of the taboos )

Just wanted to say that I always read your posts with interest ;D

[The Way Is Virtue]

I have been reading further in the book "Foundations of Internal Alchemy", translated by Fabrizio Pregadio - Wang Mu's commentaries on the Wuzhen Pian and internal alchemy. Lot's of good information in there, but I will likely have to read this book several times to really start absorbing more of what is covered in there.

 

Exorcist commented in a previous post in regards to the 'Huangting Jing' about returning the four spirits to 'Earth' by turning the attention of the senses inward. Here is some of Wang Mu's comments on this concept from the book, based on what is written in the Wuzhen Pian (Awakening To Reality):

 

"'Awakening To Reality' attributes a great importance to the Intention-Soil [yitu], [Pregadio used 'Soil' here for 'Earth'] considering that the True Intention operates throughout the entire alchemical process: Metal, Wood, Water, and Fire achieve completion by means of the True Intention (zhenyi). One of its poems says: "The four images and the five agents all avail themselves of Soil". Liu Yiming explains that the "four images" are the Breaths of Metal, Wood, Water, and Fire; with Soil, these are the five agents (wuxing). Soil [Earth] which stands for the intention (yi), harmonizes the four Breaths; it forms one "family" by itself, and is the Golden Elixir.

 

According to the principles of alchemy, Fire in the first place is a code name of the Spirit; since Wood generates Fire, Wood stands for the Original Spirit, and fire stands for the postcelestial Spirit. Analogously, Water is a code name of the Essence; since Metal generates Water, Metal stands for the original Essence, and Water stands for the postcelestial Essence. Metal and Water form one family; Wood and Fire form one family; and Soil on its own forms one family.

Awakening To Reality [Wuzhen Pian] says:

Three, Five, One

all is in these words;

but truly rare are those who understand them

in past and present times.

East is 3, South is 2,

together they make 5;

North is 1, West is 4,

they are the same.

Wu and Ji dwell on their own,

their birth number is 5;

when the three families see one another,

the infant coalesces.

The infant is the One

holding True Breath;

in ten months the embryo is complete -

this is the foundation for entering sainthood. "

 

Lots of helpful commentaries in this book.

Imagine trying to make sense out of the above passage from 'Awakening To Reality' without the help of Wang Mu's commentary or some other commentary (or the help of a teacher) which explains the context and hidden meanings. Anyway, enjoying reading the book "Foundations of Internal Alchemy".

 

BTW, the three families are further described as True Yin, True Yang, and Intention. Each has a numeric value of 5. "Three, Five, One" in the passage above means the three 'Fives' return to one. This is all part of the first stage of 'laying the foundation'.

Edited March 26, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

Here's another excerpt from the book, "Foundations of Internal Alchemy", in regards to the concept of 'the Medicine':

 

"The Medicine (yao)

What the alchemical texts call the Medicine is made of the Essence, the

Breath, and the Spirit that have been replenished at the stage of laying

the foundations. As we have seen, the three ingredients are also called

the three wholes (sanquan). An alchemical text refers to them when it

says: In order for the Great Elixir not to vanish, you need the three

wholes. If it requires arduous practice and is hard to achieve, you should

blame the evil causes.

 

According to the different stages of the alchemical practice, the

Medicine is divided into three types: the External Medicine (waiyao), the

Internal Medicine (neiyao), and the Great Medicine (dayao). This distinction

is based on the process of coagulating Essence, Breath, and Spirit

with one another. The cyclical refining at the stage of refining Essence to

transmute it into Breath leads to the formation of the External

Medicine. The cyclical refining that follows the completion of the first

stage of the practice results in the formation of the Internal Medicine.

After the External and the Internal Medicines coagulate with one

another, one enters the stage of refining Breath to transmute it into

Spirit, which is called the Great Medicine. After the Great Medicine goes

through the barrier of entering the enclosure (ruhuan, also known as

the barrier of sitting, zuoguan), it is called the Embryo of the Dao

(daotai), or the Infant (yinger).

 

The arts of the Way" and the arts of Immortality differ according

to whether, during the circulation along the Celestial Circuit of the

Function and Control vessels, the Medicine has not yet been formed or

has already been formed. Laying the foundations is the stage in which

there is no Medicine, and it only consists in refining Breath. Refining

Essence to transmute it into Breath, instead, is the state in which the

formation of the Medicine occurs. "

 

 

On another note, the book "Foundations of Internal Alchemy" also makes a number of references to the ancient alchemy book the "Can Tong Qi", which is an important work on internal and external alchemy attributed to Wei Boyang (魏伯陽) in the 2nd Century AD. Fabrizio Pregadio has some info on this text here:

Zhouyi cantong qi

There is an English translation of the Can Tong Qi available by Richard Bertschinger:

The Secret of Everlasting Life: The First Translation of the Ancient Chinese Text of Immortality

Edited March 26, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[deci belle]

Hi Virtue!

 

Earth is the center. This is intent. The go-between. Its number is 5. Its color is yellow. Earth itself is not elixir.

 

Way of Virtue, I like your mentioning of the three fives. The way you describe fire and wood. Wood is also wind, and I like to think of prior spirit as Breath. As for water and metal: Water is the homeland of Metal. I understand metal as Sense/lead/true knowledge. I usually understand Spirit/essence as East 3, South 2 form a family. Things can get so convoluted; as far as a teaching/memnonic device the three fives is sublime. The point is the three fives work but the nomenclature itself isn't really the main thing.

 

I must say that there is no school or tradition beyond yourself. The teacher is truly the center of your own body, which has no location. "Refer everything to the self." This self has no self. This is the basis, so Castañeda's and other wizardry/shamanic traditions equally apply.

Edited March 26, 2011 by deci belle

[The Way Is Virtue]

Earth itself is not elixir.

 

Hi deci. Thanks for the comments. Those were not my words. I was quoting a passage from the book "Foundations of Internal Alchemy". I'm not sure what was meant by the statement in regards to the 'Golden Elixir'. Best wishes to you...

[manitou]

Not coming up through any of the formal Chinese disciplines, could someone please explain to me what internal alchemy actually is? I have gotten the idea from reading posts on this thread and others that it is a meditation which actually produces physical changes within the body, which will enhance the body in different ways, all good, apparently. Longevity, vitality, etc.

 

I'm wondering if there's any analogy at all here to the things that happen to people advanced on the new age shamanic path (Castaneda). I have experienced much improved health, vitality, and a pretty good weight loss without really trying. Also, is there any connection, do you think, to the concept that healers themselves receive the benefit of the healings they perform? I wonder if the two somehow act in concert.

 

It just seems like there are so many equivalents within different disciplines. Almost like the poles of a teepee all coming together at the top.

[exorcist_1699]

Just wanted to say that I always read your posts with interest ;D

 

Hi, Stigweard,

 

Thanks.

[The Way Is Virtue]

It just seems like there are so many equivalents within different disciplines.

 

Aye, there are no doubt many parallels between different traditions.

[exorcist_1699]

Here's another excerpt from the book, "Foundations of Internal Alchemy", in regards to the concept of 'the Medicine':

 

"The Medicine (yao)....

 

 

Although the picture looks complicated, I think we should always pay attention to the main axis of that two counteracting poles of shen and qi ( also called fire and water for their dynamic and practical expression in our body ). As shen rises to top of our body and seems to rule the conscious aspect of us, qi sinks to the bottom and dominates its physical aspect..they split and they don't know each other, and the basic alienated status of human beings is formed...

 

It is first by using our mind paying attention to the lower dantian so as to initialize qi there, then by using that aroused qi to counteract the always fluctuated mind ( lead counteracts mercury...) that enables us to get rid of the split status of our existence...

 

And likely, after fire and water having their intercourse, the metal and wood will come in and join

together

Edited March 26, 2011 by exorcist_1699