Three critical issues in Taoist alchemy

[宁]

Although the picture looks complicated, I think we should always pay attention to the main axis of that two counteracting poles of shen and qi ( also called fire and water for their dynamic and practical expression in our body ). As shen rises to top of our body and seems to rule the conscious aspect of us, qi sinks to the bottom and dominates its physical aspect..they split and they don't know each other, and the basic alienated status of human beings is formed...

 

It is first by using our mind paying attention to the lower dantian so as to initialize qi there, then by using that aroused qi to counteract the always fluctuated mind ( lead counteracts mercury...) that enables us to get rid of the split status of our existence...

 

And likely, after fire and water having their intercourse, the metal and wood will come in and join

together

 

 

Where could one begin?

[Birch]

IMO, one might begin (if context allows) in a less-complicated system:-).

 

IMO "non-dualism" - admitting dualism is a pretty good start. Then what?

 

I find I am still alive in an amazing world (and as I learn about the universe, I find it amazing too!). Many things apparent, many things hidden. If these are me ("as consciousness") then I would love to know them :-)

 

What I've found so far is that I personally need to align myself with systems that reflect me as I am, if I am to make any progress in my life (forget about enlightenment for a moment). I'm a 10,000th thing with its dao as given by Dao - of which I am part. Could it be that I accept both things and delight in both?

[exorcist_1699]

Where could one begin?

 

"It is first by using our mind paying attention to the lower dantian so as to initialize qi there...."

[exorcist_1699]

IMO, one might begin (if context allows) in a less-complicated system:-).

 

 

Yes,of course. In fact, at initial stage, there is no need to think of stuff like five elements (metal, wood..etc) , Zhang BoDuan's exposition is not without criticisms from other Taoist masters... Just practice it with jing, qi and Shen..and you will later understand the five-elements stuff.

 

Although having a sifu is important, it happens that for some gifted persons who practice alone and , whenever they have finished a step , there seems to exist an invisible person sitting beside them , telling them how to march out for the next step or explaining to them the meaning of the precedent step. Or, at a time suddenly there are lot of wisdom about your practice gushing out from your mind like unstoppable spring to help you. Or, books you read before which appeared lack of any significant meanings , now after a while , suddenly are full of keys pop-up on their pages helping you... it is what we call the "Help from Heaven "(神助)

Edited March 28, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[宁]

那我觉得, 您就是咱们的神助

[The Way Is Virtue]

Some internal alchemy traditions seem to mainly emphasize 'holding on to the one' and 'cultivating stillness', from what I have seen. In these traditions one does not focus on such things as jing, qi, or shen, or merging of the five elements, or external medicine and internal medicine, etc, in their meditation, since one should instead be calming the false heart and cultivating stillness of mind in their meditation instead. If one can really calm the false heart and still the mind in their meditation all the other processes happen naturally of their own accord and with their own natural timing. If one 'stirs one's mind' during this process one can actually interfere with the process and potentially even cause problems. The detailed internal alchemy theory described in some texts can be helpful though so one can recognize what 'stages' they have reached in their meditation and also have a better understanding of what is going on within them. Both of the texts the 'Nei Ye' and 'Qing Jing Jing' seem to be of the view that this is a natural process which unfolds when one can properly 'hold on to the one' and cultivate real stillness of the mind in their meditation. There are references to this being the key in the Dao De Jing as well, I believe.

 

Regarding whether one can encounter 'assistance' along the way, I think this might depend somewhat on one's 'virtue'. It is not without reason that some teachers put strong emphasis on cultivating virtue before putting emphasis on meditation practice. The idea of virtue in Taoism can be viewed in different ways or from different perspectives, but the meaning does emcompass what we commonly think of as virtue as well, from my understanding. I don't think it is realistic to think that one can get far in such practices without putting much emphasis on the cultivation of virtue. Being able to cultivate qi to a large extent or other in itself does not necessarily require a high degree of 'virtue', from what I have observed anyway, but in internal alchemy one's goal is to cultivate to a very high level of spiritual attainment (not to just cultivate qi), and realistically it is not very likely that a person of lower virtue will be able to reach a very high level in such practice. Any achievement people of lower virtue may imagine they have is really not so high, but others might be fooled because such people may have some degree of mastery over qi and they may think that this person must therefore be quite 'spiritually advanced'. In my experience this is not necessarily the case at all. It was for very good reason that traditionally masters chose a disciple very carefully. It wasn't because they wanted to keep secrets from people so much as it was a practical matter of not wasting their time and not passing on practices to someone who would only likely do harm to themself or others if they were to learn such practices. The actual meditation methods are not so complicated but the cultivation of the self (cultivation of one's heart) is where the real hard work is done, IMO. This is just my personal point of view of course.

Best to everyone in their cultivation and practice.

Edited March 28, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[manitou]

Thank you for that beautiful explanation, TWIV. You explaining it in such an uncomplicated and masterful way makes it understandable. Coming from a different direction, it's nice to see the parallels once the vocabulary is learned.

 

I thank you again.

[xuanying]

Hello,

 

Please let me comment briefly on a couple of small points in this discussion:

 

"'Awakening To Reality' attributes a great importance to the Intention-Soil [yitu], [Pregadio used 'Soil' here for 'Earth'] considering that the True Intention operates throughout the entire alchemical process: Metal, Wood, Water, and Fire achieve completion by means of the True Intention (zhenyi). . . . Soil [Earth] which stands for the intention (yi), harmonizes the four Breaths; it forms one "family" by itself, and is the Golden Elixir.

I think it's important to preserve in English the same distinction that exists in Chinese. "Earth" (di 地) is used to mean the counterpart of Heaven, as in "Heaven and Earth". "Soil" (tu 土) is used to mean one of the wuxing (five agents, phases, elements... whatever you call them). Just like di and tu are related in Chinese (in meaning, and also in the shape of the characters), but are not exactly the same thing, the same is true of Earth and Soil.

 

 

Earth is the center. This is intent. The go-between. Its number is 5. Its color is yellow. Earth itself is not elixir.

I think Wang Mu says that "Soil ... is the Golden Elixir" because, just like the Elixir, it contains and unifies Yin and Yang (the celestial stems ji and wu, respectively) as well as the other four agents (Wood, Fire, Metal, Water), of which it is the origin. Soil represents, at the level of the five agents (the world as we know it), the unity of the One Breath, and the One Breath is the Elixir.

 

 

Concerning Wang Mu's "Foundations":

 

It appears to be a kind of an overview of internal alchemy, but it seems to be written in a way that still would require some level of prior knowlwedge of internal alchemy and intenal alchemy concepts. I am only about one third of the way into the book, but so far I would say that it seems that this book probably doesn't go into enough background detail for an absolute beginner to internal alchemy concepts to really follow everything that is being discussed. For example various taoist writings are frequently referenced in the text but no explanation is given on what exactly is being referenced, although the translator has added some notes to help clarify the source of many of these references.

I agree that the book is not exactly easy. Wang Mu didn't intend to simplify Neidan, just to present it in a way as clear as possible. This is the best combination of a fairly extended but at the same clear description of Neidan that I know of among those written by a contemporary Chinese author (and master). It describes all main aspects of the main codification of the Neidan practice (preliminary + three stages) and I also like because it quotes Chinese texts continuously.

 

I wasn't sure whether I should add a bibliography, but then decided I wouldn't, fearing that it would make the book seem too "technical". But maybe I'll make a short list of works quoted and post it somewhere.

 

 

Just one more thing...:

 

I absolutely agree that the issue superior virtue and inferior virtue is too important to be ignored . In fact, only the superior virtue can make use of Zen's method,those who are inferior virtue, no matter how hard they try , are unlikely to succeed( sadly most who try the method are doomed to fall into the trap of pseudo-void , but mistakenly think that they are achieving something ... )

Really this seems to be one of the main points to understand the perspectives of Neidan. Liu Yiming's passage is the most detailed explanation of it that I have read. He also mentions it in other works. But please note that at the end he says:

 

"Superior virtue and inferior virtue are different and are not the same. Therefore their uses are dissimilar. . . . However, they lead to the same goal."

 

I don't think "inferior virtue" means someone who is "of inferior virtue". As it does in the Daode jing (and in the Cantong qi), it refers to the way of "doing" as distinguished from the way of "non-doing" (superior virtue).

 

Thanks,

 

Fabrizio

Edited March 29, 2011 by xuanying

[andrew]

Hi Exorcist,

 

I must admit I skipped most of this thread, far too advanced for me, I thank Manitou for asking the question she did, because your response made me remember the experience I had while sitting last night, and I thought to ask the forum about it.

 

Now, this is what I felt/saw.

 

My heart and lungs were on fire glowing red and hot, my brain was crystalline blue and cold but also dark somehow, my abdomen was lush and green like a jungle and calm. My legs were made of wood and stone and my arms made of steel and technology.

 

Reading back over this thread, I can't help but think I was seeing something other just a pleasant sequence of thoughts from a brain that has seen to many special effects!.

 

Also my center of vision was in the back of my skull looking forward through my head. I can tell you, it was dark in there! It was a little unnerving to be aware of the inside of my head considering I spend most of my time in the front of it!

 

Do these relate to what you are discussing here, with the 5 elements etc? Either way it was a pleasant change form the usually uneventful sitting I do.

 

respect

 

andrew

[exorcist_1699]

Hi Exorcist,

 

I must admit I skipped most of this thread, far too advanced for me, I thank Manitou for asking the question she did, because your response made me remember the experience I had while sitting last night, and I thought to ask the forum about it.

 

Now, this is what I felt/saw.

 

My heart and lungs were on fire glowing red and hot,...

andrew

Hi, Andrew,

 

Thank you for sharing with us what you "saw" in your practice. However, whatever they were, it seems better you ignore them and not try to attach to them...

[manitou]

"Superior virtue and inferior virtue are different and are not the same. Therefore their uses are dissimilar. . . . However, they lead to the same goal."

 

 

 

I can testify to this, personally. My young years were filled with inferior virtue. It is by becoming a total alkie and low-life, it 'forced' me to change by way of recovery programs and psychiatry. That path definitely did lead to this path.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Edited March 29, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

My heart and lungs were on fire glowing red and hot, my brain was crystalline blue and cold but also dark somehow, my abdomen was lush and green like a jungle and calm. My legs were made of wood and stone and my arms made of steel and technology.

Reading back over this thread, I can't help but think I was seeing something other just a pleasant sequence of thoughts from a brain that has seen to many special effects!.

Also my center of vision was in the back of my skull looking forward through my head. I can tell you, it was dark in there! It was a little unnerving to be aware of the inside of my head considering I spend most of my time in the front of it!

 

Welcome to the discussion Andrew. Interesting experience. I have not experinced anything very similar in my own meditation practice so far, but I do recall reading that one of Wang Liping's meditation students reported seeing the inside of their body as appearing as all jewels or crystals or something like that. It may indicate a bit of a change in your practice. Not sure.

 

I think Exorcist's comment regarding ignoring such experiences is to keep from distracting the mind. Of course if that is what you experienced, you can't help from experiencing it. I think the idea though is not to get attached to such experiences which can distract the mind and interfere with your ongoing meditation practice. My experiences in my meditation practice are more in the way of various sensations although sometimes I do see flashes of light and such, but my experience with this type of meditation practice is still at a beginning level, which I guess would be the level of 'laying the foundations'. Maybe someone with more experience in this sort of meditation practice can provide further insigthts into the experience you had. Are you normally a fairly visual person in the sense of being able to visualize things fairly easily in your mind? I think that I am not a very visual person.

[Stigweard]

Hello,

 

Please let me comment briefly on a couple of small points in this discussion:

 

 

I think it's important to preserve in English the same distinction that exists in Chinese. "Earth" (di 地) is used to mean the counterpart of Heaven, as in "Heaven and Earth". "Soil" (tu 土) is used to mean one of the wuxing (five agents, phases, elements... whatever you call them). Just like di and tu are related in Chinese (in meaning, and also in the shape of the characters), but are not exactly the same thing, the same is true of Earth and Soil.

 

 

 

I think Wang Mu says that "Soil ... is the Golden Elixir" because, just like the Elixir, it contains and unifies Yin and Yang (the celestial stems ji and wu, respectively) as well as the other four agents (Wood, Fire, Metal, Water), of which it is the origin. Soil represents, at the level of the five agents (the world as we know it), the unity of the One Breath, and the One Breath is the Elixir.

 

 

Concerning Wang Mu's "Foundations":

 

 

I agree that the book is not exactly easy. Wang Mu didn't intend to simplify Neidan, just to present it in a way as clear as possible. This is the best combination of a fairly extended but at the same clear description of Neidan that I know of among those written by a contemporary Chinese author (and master). It describes all main aspects of the main codification of the Neidan practice (preliminary + three stages) and I also like because it quotes Chinese texts continuously.

 

I wasn't sure whether I should add a bibliography, but then decided I wouldn't, fearing that it would make the book seem too "technical". But maybe I'll make a short list of works quoted and post it somewhere.

 

 

Just one more thing...:

 

 

Really this seems to be one of the main points to understand the perspectives of Neidan. Liu Yiming's passage is the most detailed explanation of it that I have read. He also mentions it in other works. But please note that at the end he says:

 

"Superior virtue and inferior virtue are different and are not the same. Therefore their uses are dissimilar. . . . However, they lead to the same goal."

 

I don't think "inferior virtue" means someone who is "of inferior virtue". As it does in the Daode jing (and in the Cantong qi), it refers to the way of "doing" as distinguished from the way of "non-doing" (superior virtue).

 

Thanks,

 

Fabrizio

Nice !! ... Great to see you contributing here my friend. You honor our little muck-pool

[xuanying]

What I was thinking was that possibly what was meant was that Soil unifies with the four Breaths/Images to produce one, and this unification of the three families into one is the golden elixir, but perhaps this is what you are saying above as well?

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say!

 

I have a wish list of a few other Chinese texts on internal alchemy which are supposed to contain quite clear explanations, which I hope will be translated into English by someone someday.

Why don't you post your list? You never know, someone here might try to translate them!

Edited March 29, 2011 by xuanying

[andrew]

thanks exorcist, the way is virtue,

 

Yes, thanks for the advice, attachment is certainly not why I sit so thanks for the reminder. I am a visual person, but I don't try and visualize when sitting, just watch the breath. It was unusual to have anything like this, I have previously enter though Samadhi to a blue crystalline state, but that was spontaneous and also unusual. i only asked as it seemed synchronicity at work that the next day I would be reading about 'elements' that's all.

 

thanks again

 

andrew

Edited March 30, 2011 by andrew

[tccii]

Fabrizio,

 

I'd like to say thank you for your work of translating and publishing Taoist texts in an accessible format. There are so few translated into the English language relative to the great number out there. It is also great that you took the time to answer questions about them. Although, from an editorial point of view, I may not agree with all your choices regarding how to render certain concepts in the English language, you have undoubtedly done a great service by providing them.

 

Best regards,

Shawn

[The Way Is Virtue]

.

Edited April 2, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[exorcist_1699]

Ok, I am not sure of the name in Chinese for two of the books, so I am attaching a PDF file with some pictures and other info that I know about the books. The first two books in the list are supposed to contain some good detailed info on taoist meditation cultivation, but I don't know the specifics on what exact tradition they come from. Maybe Exorcist can provide some more details about the first two books or maybe you are aware of these books? Since I can't read Chinese I am not certain of the exact content of these books however.

The first two books are :

1) 性命圭旨

 

2) 大成捷要

 

Both are famous Taoist alchemy books written by anonymous authors in Ching Dynasty.

[The Way Is Virtue]

The first two books are :

1) 性命圭旨

2) 大成捷要

Both are famous Taoist alchemy books written by anonymous authors in Ching Dynasty.

 

Thank you very much Exorcist. Have you read either of these two books? Would you say that they provide fairly clear information, or is the information fairly difficult to follow? One description of those two books that I have read stated that both of these books provided very clear and useful details about alchemy practice.

[xuanying]

Thanks Shawn, it's a real pleasure for me to be here.

 

Fabrizio

[exorcist_1699]

Thank you very much Exorcist. Have you read either of these two books? Would you say that they provide fairly clear information, or is the information fairly difficult to follow? One description of those two books that I have read stated that both of these books provided very clear and useful details about alchemy practice.

 

Both are quite good books, but they are not for beginners. You get to have some basic knowledge of Taoist alchemy and jargon in order to understand the content in them .So, I don't think they provide" fairly clear information"..Undoubtedly , they do provide useful information, but you need to work hard to dig them out..

[The Way Is Virtue]

Both are quite good books, but they are not for beginners. You get to have some basic knowledge of Taoist alchemy and jargon in order to understand the content in them . So, I don't think they provide" fairly clear information". Undoubtedly , they do provide useful information, but you need to work hard to dig them out.

 

Ok, thanks for the info on those books.

[exorcist_1699]

Why hazards arise in our cultivation?

 

Consider if a guy who does not practice Taoist alchemy at all, then in his body, jing , qi and shen are separate , just like ordinary people ; a nocturnal release of jing, a hard physical labor or a whole night spending on solving a mathematical problem ,unlikely will hurt him seriously .What he needs is to take a rest for 2-3 days to recover.

 

However, in case this guy has been practicing Taoist alchemy for years, the situation will be totally different . Jing , qi and his mind likely have united and become an entity , or formed as a ball of condensed energy , so any release of it from his body ( all outlets on his body : nostrils , ears, anal.. are possible), can be very harmful , even fatal.

 

In fact, the higher the level he attains, the severe the danger it will be ...

 

It is another reason why the refinement of te is so important, so indispensable .

Edited April 8, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[The Way Is Virtue]

It is another reason why the refinement of te is so important, so indispensable .

 

Interesting info Exorcist.

Edited March 31, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue