Three critical issues in Taoist alchemy

[tccii]

Fabrizio,

 

A concise, annotated bibliography would be a useful addition to "Awakening to Reality."

 

How few works do you think you could include to make it 1) a reasonably comprehensive overview and 2) accessible to the non-academic/specialist in the field?

 

Best regards,

Shawn

[exorcist_1699]

It sounds strange to say that qi/ pre-heavenly qi can be an universal medicine for nearly all diseases, including aging ; I think the reasons for such nearly omnipotent power are due to :

 

 

1) Pre-heavenly qi /qi can make our body return to its infantile status as the book Laotze always admires. Of course, that infantile status also means our returning to the original health, getting rid of all diseases we have got after birth . In this sense , qi acts as a medium, enabling us to travel ,backwards and forwards ,freely in the biological world.

 

2) Qi and its other expression, jing,are said to be the basic building blocks of our body and all living things, including those bacteria and virus. Most of the diseases , to the final analysis, are due to the deficiency of jing and imbalance of qi ( or evil qi gets an upper hand over good qi..etc) , and in our Taoist qigong practice, those unhealthy status can be re-set to a healthy one at the lowest, fundamental level .

 

For example, all computer viruses, no matter how strange they appear on our PC, to the final analysis, are just some series of 0 and 1 , and an anti-virus software, which we download from somewhere, after compilation and working at machine level, is in fact also a series of 0 and 1,but this time , it helps us changing the infected ones to some " healthy" series .

 

Qi is some kind of huge and delicate stuff, if we get a great mind to accommodate it , then it allows us to change things at the lowest, basic level, more basic than those medical means we call antibiotics and radiation..

Edited April 1, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[宁]

It sounds strange to say that qi/ pre-heavenly qi can be an universal medicine for nearly all diseases, including aging ; I think the reasons are :

 

 

1) Pre-heavenly qi /qi can make our body return to its infantile status as the book Laotze always admires. Of course, that infantile status also means our returning to the original health, getting rid of all diseases we have got after birth . In this sense , qi acts as a medium, enabling us to travel ,backwards and forwards ,freely in the biological world.

 

2) Qi and its other expression, jing,are said to be the basic building blocks of our body and all living things, including those bacteria and virus. Most of the diseases , to the final analysis, are due to the deficiency of jing and imbalance of qi ( or evil qi gets an upper hand over good qi..etc) , and in our Taoist qigong practice, those unhealthy status can be re-set to a healthy one at the lowest, fundamental level .

 

For example, all computer viruses, no matter how strange they appear on our PC, to the final analysis, are just some series of 0 and 1 , and an anti-virus software, which we download from somewhere, after compilation and working at machine level, is in fact also a series of 0 and 1,but this time , it helps us changing the infected ones to some " healthy" series .

 

Qi is some kind of huge and delicate stuff, if we get a great mind to accommodate it , then it allows us to change things at the lowest, basic level, more basic than those medical means we call antibiotics and radiation..

 

Respectfully, have you yourself witnessed these effects, or is this just theory?

[exorcist_1699]

Respectfully, have you yourself witnessed these effects, or is this just theory?

I don't think there are any difficulties to verify qi's healing power as most of us , in our life, have been /will be experiencing tens of different diseases , some minor , some serious. And, testing of them under qi's healing power is just simple and easy .

 

To those who can initialize high- quality qi , getting rid of diseases such as AIDs or cancers is just a piece of cake; to those who are struggling with low quality qi , dull qi, then even a disease like hemorrhoids will be something very troublesome for them .

 

Althouhg qi 's healing power is not the only factor that we defines Tao, I think there is some wit of Taoism here ,mainly we no longer is limited to rely on some inner, subjective feeling ( light, heat..etc) to judge whether the way we are practicing be correct or not, but can judge it by its objective, healing effect. Qi as the fundamental , original energy of our life , hardly can you find it co-exist with any diseases or evils .

Edited April 1, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[宁]

I don't think there are any difficulties to verify qi's healing power as most of us , in our life, have been /will be experiencing tens of different diseases , some minor , some serious. And, testing of them under qi's healing power is just simple and easy .

 

To those who can initialize high- quality qi , getting rid of diseases such as AIDs or cancers is just a piece of cake; to those we are struggling with low quality qi , dull qi, then even a disease like hemorrhoids will be something very troublesome for them .

 

Althouhg qi 's healing power is not the only factor that we defines Tao, I think there is some wit of Taoism here ,mainly we no longer is limited to rely on some inner, subjective feeling ( light, heat..etc) to judge whether the way we are practicing be correct or not, but can judge it by its objective, healing effect. Qi as the fundamental , original energy of our life , hardly can you find it co-exist with any diseases or evils .

 

 

I know, and I think all of us know, that is the theory, and in the West, we did came to know about this theory from various writings that have been passed down to us form Chinese, in this information age this is very common, you know.

You see, our problem isn't information, is direct experience.

 

If you want to know why I insist, is because oftentimes I get the feeling that the Chinese don't easily approve that these teachings should go into the hands of the Westerners. As such, your enterprise is very interesting to me, at least, and I want to know more about where you want to go with it, to what extent you see the information that you provide to be useful to us, as laowai taobums.

 

So, What about experiencing? Witnessing?

[xuanying]

A concise, annotated bibliography would be a useful addition to "Awakening to Reality."

 

How few works do you think you could include to make it 1) a reasonably comprehensive overview and 2) accessible to the non-academic/specialist in the field?

 

Shawn,

 

Please let me understand...

 

First, you mean a bibliography to Wang Mu's "Foundations of Internal Alchemy", right? -- Not to "Awakening to Reality", I guess, which already has a short bibliography.

 

Second, you mean a bibliography of Chinese texts quoted by Wang Mu? -- Not a bibliography of Neidan, I hope ...

 

Third, how many works?... Well, I would try to include all works quoted by Wang Mu, with at least a minimum of information on their authors.

 

Please let me know if this is what you meant.

 

Fabrizio

[exorcist_1699]

I know, and I think all of us know, that is the theory, and in the West, we did came to know about this theory from various writings that have been passed down to us form Chinese, in this information age this is very common, you know.

You see, our problem isn't information, is direct experience......

 

So, What about experiencing? Witnessing?

Hi, gentleman and lady,

 

The role I am playing here, as you were told before ,is just some kind of translator. I try to translate those Taoist texts or ideas , which I think are unknown to the westerners ,from Chinese to English; of course, most of them are modified by me to fit in some contexts which I think are beneficial or interesting ( maybe some people find them boring, but that is out of my control ).

 

As Shawn said in this topic:" There are so few translated into the English language relative to the great number out there." I have to say, hardly can I agree to Little1's view that information or theory regarding Taoist alchemy are enough , that what is important is direct experiences. I have to say the theory accumulated after two-thousand-year arguments between I-Ching schools ,Buddhism, Taoism, Zen , Tibetan Buddhism and Confucian are only partly, in fact, a very small part of them, known to the West . Why not marching forward based on our predecessors' concluded experience and wisdom , but insist on direct/personal experience?

 

There is no need for the westerners to repeat all "direct experience" done by the Chinese and Indians for another thousand years . For instance , the Chinese , when they started to learn physics from West, at the early beginning of the 20th century, they were not so foolish to repeat experiments done by Faraday or Joule , or looked into the reason why Maxwell failed in an individual experiment, so as to master those basic physical laws ; in fact, they just learned and remembered the basic stuff by heart and applied them .

 

You may argue that Taoist practice is different from scientific experiments where direct experience is more important etc...however, I have to say that , different methods , in fact, lead to different personal experiences. For example,Zen's method can lead people to Enlightenment, so great such an experience that make their followers undervalue Taoist ways, and think that their way or experiences is unique and shouldn't be violated , which of course, is not true.

Edited April 3, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[zerostao]

I just wanted say thankyou for this thread

Thankyou

[宁]

Hi, gentleman and lady,

 

The role I am playing here, as you were told before ,is just some kind of translator. I try to translate those Taoist texts or ideas , which I think are unknown to the westerners ,from Chinese to English; of course, most of them are modified by me to fit in some contexts which I think are beneficial or interesting ( maybe some people find them boring, but that is out of my control ).

 

As Shawn said in this topic:" There are so few translated into the English language relative to the great number out there." I have to say, hardly can I agree to Little1's view that information or theory regarding Taoist alchemy are enough , that what is important is direct experiences. I have to say the theory accumulated after two-thousand-year arguments between I-Ching schools ,Buddhism, Taoism, Zen , Tibetan Buddhism and Confucian are only partly, in fact, a very small part of them, known to the West . Why not marching forward based on our precedents' concluded experience and wisdom , but insist on direct/personal experience?

 

There is no need for the westerners to repeat all "direct experience" done by the Chinese and Indians for another thousand years . For instance , the Chinese , when they started to learn physics from West, at the early beginning of the 20th century, they were not so foolish to repeat experiments done by Faraday or Joule , or looked into the reason why Maxwell failed in an individual experiment, so as to master those basic physical laws ; in fact, they just learned and remembered the basic stuff by heart and applied them .

 

You may argue that Taoist practice is different from scientific experiments where direct experience is more important etc...however, I have to say that , different methods , in fact, lead to different personal experiences. For example,Zen's method can lead people to Enlightenment, so great such an experience that make their followers undervalue Taoist ways, and think that their way or experiences is unique and shouldn't be violated , which of course, is not true.

 

You may find it hard to believe, but I have great respect for you, no matter how our discussion will end - the purpose of which is me trying to make you aware of a few things.

I agree with all that you wrote above, however I fail to see it's relevance as an answer to the original question.

You also know that any and all Daoist teachings and information that are passed on from the olden days to us via different lineages are highly contextual, there are no general rules that apply for everyone.

Me asking you about your witnessing and experimentation is my trying to put your ideas in some valid context.

That's all for now, I hope you will join in and play.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Little1

[exorcist_1699]

I just wanted say thankyou for this thread

Thankyou

Thanks.

[exorcist_1699]

 

You also know that any and all Daoist teachings and information that are passed on from the olden days to us via different lineages are highly contextual, there are no general rules that apply for everyone.

 

 

Although we can't generalize and quantify Taoist alchemical rules, so precisely as laws in western science, say :

 

Focusing your mind on your lower dantian, which is 3 inches down from your navel , for one minute, you get one joule of heat .

 

No. we can't quantify qi so exactly in this way ; however, there are lot of general rules that our predecessors already get which make us follow their steps easier ; without them , passing the experience to late-comers or to the foreigners is impossible;and, they have to repeat old people's direct/ personal experiences , which of course make any passing the taoist legacy inefficient ( if it is a modern request at this moment )

 

Just raise some of those general rules here to explain :

 

1)It is only after our ordinary way of breathing stopped,can the rise of pre-heavenly qi be possible . And,it is only after our every-moment fluctuating mind stopped, can the stop of our ordinary way of breathing possible.

 

Why? Because it is only after a pseudo life receded,can a genuine one appear.

 

2) It is only after having pre-heavenly qi absorbed in your body,can there be a real micro-cosmic circulation.

 

Many people , after circulating their qi thousand times in their so-called micro-cosmic way , and find it can't cure their AIDS/cancer/ leprosy.. they then come to us and claim that Taoist alchemy exaggerating , unscientific..etc, how can we say ?

 

3) If your jing and qi are not perfect ,then even you can put yourself in non-dual status, spiritual pseudo-void/pseudo-emptiness is the result waiting for you, not awakening.

 

This is one of the rules that the Chinese Taoists get after her one- thousand year competing/arguing.. whatever you like to say, with the Buddhism , especially with the Zen's way of practice. It may sound insignificant(?) to you, but in fact it get from laborious effort. ..

 

Comparing with what the mysticism-in-Europe , maybe also those from Hebrew, can tell us , isn't the significance of them clear enough ? Without the discovery of qi, and an understanding of its delicate relation with jing and Shen in our body and in emptiness ,Western and Hebrew mysticism provide us no concrete steps for salvation ...

 

I think I have to stop here so that it doesn't look tedious.

Edited April 8, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[宁]

Although we can't generalize and quantify Taoist alchemical rules, so precisely as laws in western science, say :

 

Focusing your mind on your lower dantian, which is 3 inches down from your navel , for one minute, you get one joule of heat .

 

No. we can't quantify qi so exactly in this way ; however, there are lot of general rules that our predecessors already get which make us follow their steps easier ; without them , passing the experience to late-comers or to the foreigners is impossible;and, they have to repeat old people's direct/ personal experiences , which of course make any passing the taoist legacy inefficient ( if it is a modern request at this moment )

 

Just raise some of those general rules here to explain :

 

1)It is only after our ordinary way of breathing stopped,can the rise of pre-heavenly qi be possible . And,it is only after our every-moment fluctuating mind stopped, can the stop of our ordinary way of breathing possible.

 

Why? Because it is only after a pseudo life receded,can a genuine one appear.

 

2) It is only after having pre-heavenly qi absorbed in your body,can there be a real micro-cosmic circulation.

 

Many people , after circulating their qi thousand times in their so-called micro-cosmic way , and find it can't cure their AIDS/cancer/ leprosy.. they then come to us and claim that Taoist alchemy exaggerating , unscientific..etc, how can we say ?

 

3) If your jing and qi are not perfect ,then even you can put yourself in non-dual status, spiritual pseudo-void/pseudo-emptiness is the result waiting for you, not awakening.

 

This is one of the rules that the Chinese Taoists get after her one- thousand year competing/arguing.. whatever you like to say, with the Buddhism , especially with the Zen's way of practice. It may sound insignificant(?) to you, but in fact it get from laborious effort. ..

 

Comparing with what the mysticism-in-Europe , maybe also those from Hebrew, can tell us , isn't the significance of them clear enough ? Without the discovery of qi, and an understanding of its delicate relation with qing and Shen in our body and in emptiness ,Western and Hebrew mysticism provide us no concrete steps for salvation ...

 

I think I have to stop here so that it doesn't look tedious.

 

First I have to say that this is only my opinion based on my research.

 

I would advice you not to rush ahead and draw conclusions about western and hebrew mysticism, as there are indeed some Very good practitioners of these arts that i know of, and they wouldn't agree with your statements. The situation of the truely sacred arts is simmilar here, as it is there, most Chinese don't have a clue about the real cultivation, and don't care about it, the same applies with the Westerners. As many as you can see on TTB, we are in fact just a handful of dedicated practitioners (there are quite a few who come here, sadly, just to waste their time and others').

 

Here in the west, as in China, we generally have some clue about the basic principles, and know next to nothing about the exact steps of gathering the ingredients and completing the basic theory of the alchemical work. What has been salvaged from the olden knowledge now lies behind the closed door of a few mystic and secret schools, that don't easily accept students.

 

Except for that, all that we have access now is basic fundamental truths, just like the ones you repeatedly share with us about Daoism. They are valuable of course, yet the intricacies on how they work on a personal level still evade many of us. In other words, as basic as they are, we still don't know how to use them. What good is an information about Practice, if you can't make good Use of it?

[tccii]

Shawn,

 

Please let me understand...

 

First, you mean a bibliography to Wang Mu's "Foundations of Internal Alchemy", right? -- Not to "Awakening to Reality", I guess, which already has a short bibliography.

 

Second, you mean a bibliography of Chinese texts quoted by Wang Mu? -- Not a bibliography of Neidan, I hope ...

 

Third, how many works?... Well, I would try to include all works quoted by Wang Mu, with at least a minimum of information on their authors.

 

Please let me know if this is what you meant.

 

Fabrizio

 

 

 

Fabrizio,

 

Certainly a bibliography of the Chinese texts quoted by Wang Mu would be useful. I also understand you already have a fairly comprehensive bibliography of Neidan which is 300+ works. However, I was heading toward something a little different...

 

Given the questions on this thread, it occurred to me that what might be really helpful for people new to Alchemy would be a concise introductory bibliography for aspiring Neidan practitioners. The questions on this tread are similar to those we get in the courses that we teach, namely "What books should we read?" Our usual answer is "Forget the books, practice! Spend the time you would be reading practicing." However, this is hard for Westerners, given the way most people are conditioned to learn.

 

So perhaps what is needed is a good, short, introductory annotated bibliography. Suppose we arbitrarily limited it to 10 works (or nine if you want a nice Taoist number). Let us also assume that the audience has limited access to university libraries, so the books should be readily available and not prohibitively expensive. You are probably in a fairly unique position to provide some great input given your, undoubtedly, extensive knowledge of the literature. Which works do you think would be essential to a novice practitioner in the field and why?

 

Does that help clarify and narrow the scope?

 

Shawn

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hello Fabrizio,

 

Do either of the two Ching dynasty alchemy texts (性命圭旨 and 大成捷要), or the contemporary books on Taoist cultivation by 田诚阳 appear of any interest to you? Were you aware of any of these books previously? Just wondering what your view is on these books?

 

Best wishes...

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hello exorcist. I am finding your input and views on Taoist cultivation quite helpful and valuable. There are no doubt others that appreciate your input as well. I think there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding in the West in regards to Taoism and Taoist practices, so having more input from all different perspectives can only be better.

 

Best wishes...

Edited April 3, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[exorcist_1699]

 

 

I would advice you not to rush ahead and draw conclusions about western and hebrew mysticism, as there are indeed some Very good practitioners of these arts that i know of, and they wouldn't agree with your statements.

Thank your reply. Maybe you are right that I should not draw conclusion so early ...

[exorcist_1699]

Hello exorcist. I am finding your input and views on Taoist cultivation quite helpful and valuable. There are no doubt others that appreciate your input as well. I think there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding in the West in regards to Taoism and Taoist practices, so having more input from all different perspectives can only be better.

 

Best wishes...

 

Thanks .

 

To be candid, the situation is a little complicated as Little1 and Stigweard mentioned...for example, the first group of people who , beyond all questions, get the conditions: geographically close to China and capable of reading kanji ( the Koreans, apart from a small group of professors, had already lost their ability of reading Chinese, let along classical Chinese mixed with those strange jargon ), to know the secrets of Taoist alchemy should be the Japanese..unfortunately, they are also a nation who give the Han Chinese the most severe harm , so from the standpoint of Hans' national interest, they of course, can only be told the Zen Buddhism , not the Taoist secrets.

 

Japanese is the first foreign language that the Wu-Liu schools' writings translated into,of course , done by the Japanese themselves. However, thinking that just by relying on the Wu-Liu writings to get a complete picture of Taoist alchemy seems impossible .

[The Way Is Virtue]

However, thinking that just by relying on the Wu-Liu writings to get a complete picture of Taoist alchemy seems impossible.

 

No doubt at least improbable...

[The Way Is Virtue]

Was going to edit my previous reply to add some things but the Edit option is not showing up on my reply for some reason. Some sort of glitch it would seem. You won't get any argument from me that there has been a tradition of secrecy in Taoist cultivation traditions. However, I also know that in recent years there have been at least some teachers that are now offering to teach serious students. I personally would be inclined to think that a teacher of any true spiritual tradition will be much less concerned with borders and geography and other external worldly factors and more concerned with the true state of any potential student's heart. If the student is not sincere or otherwise not ready there would be no point to teach anything beyond what they are ready and able to learn. That is just a matter of practicality. From the student's point of view, it makes no sense to lament that teachers won't teach us how to run when in reality we are still learning the basics of walking. That is how I see it anyway. There may be a lot of truth to the saying that when the student is ready the teacher appears...

 

[宁]

 

So perhaps what is needed is a good, short, introductory annotated bibliography. Suppose we arbitrarily limited it to 10 works (or nine if you want a nice Taoist number).

 

Does that help clarify and narrow the scope?

 

Shawn

 

To me, it would.

Also it would be nice if people would write the Chinese name in characters, pinyin transliteration, and Western counterpart concept together, when discussing the terminology. Otherwise the discussion is more confusing than enlightening.

 

It's too bad that no one can really share anything valuable about the practical aspect of things, however i guess less is better than nothing.

[Stigweard]

Just piping in to say I am still reading with avid interest. I have a couple of inquiries brewing but will post them when I have time to give them the proper attention. Please, please continue.

 

[xuanying]

Does that help clarify and narrow the scope?

It's all clear now... Give me a few days and I'll post it here.

 

Fabrizio

[idquest]

3) If your jing and qi are not perfect ,then even you can put yourself in non-dual status, spiritual pseudo-void/pseudo-emptiness is the result waiting for you, not awakening.

Exorcist,

 

You have mentioned the peril of getting into pseudo-void a few times on this board. Are there any benchmarks/tools that would help to discern the pseudo-void from the true one?

 

Thanks.

[exorcist_1699]

Exorcist,

 

You have mentioned the peril of getting into pseudo-void a few times on this board. Are there any benchmarks/tools that would help to discern the pseudo-void from the true one?

 

Thanks.

 

I think whether the pre-heavenly way of breathing arise or not should be an important criterion to judge a status be pseudo void or not . Maybe other people who practice other ways ,whatever schools they are , know of any better criterion , in that case, I would like to know.

Edited May 3, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

Although hardly can people be inspired by hearing the word" emptiness", and most of them are excited when hearing words such as "fire"," light", "breathing...in this way" ,evading this laborious job can only delay the earlier coming of our great accomplishment..

Edited April 6, 2011 by exorcist_1699