Finders Keepers Loosers Weepers/Seekers

[z00se]

So I am at work, I find $200 on the ground. I know if i hand it in then most likely someone will pocket it. A kid comes up and asks if anyone has found any money, he has lost his birthday money.

 

Well it is a kid, and it's his birthday money, and i've had someone give me back $50 i've dropped before when i was a kid, so i say yeah and give it back to him. However....

 

If i were to keep it, it sounds nasty but then i am a taoist - i could view it in the light that there IS NO NASTY. It doesn't matter if i keep the money or don't keep the money really, it's all the same. Things are just as they are. Everything is one, there is no dualism - no good/bad. UNLESS of course i feel guilty then i will want to erase my guilt and give him the money back. Of course this means i haven't reached the point of non-dualism yet and if i want to get there i should avoid feeling guilty, and feel the love of returning the money.

 

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.... according to the laws of karma if i didn't give back the money, and i could keep my mind blank and not think about it (or anything else for that matter -for the moment) and therefore have no bad feelings then would i have overcome any bad karma that could come back to bite me? OR could it happen that this could directly cause me to have some back luck in the future (according to some karma law) that was UNRELATED directly to this boy and then my ability to overcome any resulting bad karma would only come from my ability of keeping my mind blank or having a non-dualistic view of that resulting bad luck.

 

So i think in essence i mean - does karma come from your own internal reaction to a particular external incident or can a particular external incident effect a different seemingly unrelated external incident which you also then need to overcome with a non-dualistic view?

 

Thanks for your ideas in advance!

[Adishakti]

I think you would have reached the point of non-dualism if you left the money where it was and didn't give too much thought to it.

[Marblehead]

I think you would have reached the point of non-dualism if you left the money where it was and didn't give too much thought to it.

 

Ah!, but the Taoist Sage refuses nothing. Therefore it was proper to pick up the money.

 

And beside, if the money was not picked up the wind might have blown the money, separated the bills and then the kid would likely never recover all of it.

 

I don't karma even need be considered here. The old say, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." pretty much covers the situation.

[Jetsun]

I have been trying to reply for half an hour but my mind keeps tying itself in knots.

 

While i think good and bad are mind judgements which ultimately don't exist that doesn't mean that there isn't a virtuous or a non virtuous path to take, to not give the money would in the end cause you suffering as well as the boy because even if you can keep guilt from entering your conscious mind your subconscious mind records everything and it may create a barrier to your own development and even if you can keep such feelings out your entire life I believe you would in the end confront them during the death process, so there is always a reconning for your actions in my view.

[Trunk]

Tao n' Te, man.

The Absolute and relative virtue,

both important.

[Jetsun]

I think the natural nature of your heart is compassion so to go against your own nature is to go against the tao, which is like choosing to swim upstream with lots of stress, suffering and wasted energy rather than the natural ease and pleasure of being carried downstream

[Medhavi]

Please don't fall into the trap of confusing relative with (assumed) absolute reality. Trunk has pointed this out already. I am just elaborating on this.

 

If you do not have a direct experience of the absolute(if there is one), then it is just intellectual speculation. You can commit a big mistake here in taking the idea of this is in line with the Tao or this is non-dual, applying it to a situation to transgress ethical norms, and deceive yourself with preconceived definitions of non-duality to make generally unacceptable behaviour acceptable to yourself.

 

Fact is, you have some definite knowledge of relative reality. The laws of your society and of course, the virtues you may value. Follow that kind of thing for this is not metaphysics or hazy theory-craft. Notions of ultimate reality are.

 

It is all too easy to find an excuse to do questionable things in the name of my idea of ultimate reality.

That's how you get those "crazy adepts" doing really unethical things and then excusing themselves later with ridiculous assertions. Even if they have experienced higher levels of reality, they should also have the wisdom to behave in accordance to their environment and not act as if it didn't exist anymore.

 

In other words: Don't pretend to be God when you are still in the flesh.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Medhavi

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I will tell you the correct answer according to the most learned Taoist sages, for me to provide the answer however, will cost you $200.

[zerostao]

out of selfish reasons i would give the kid the loot.

becoz i would be happier doing that , than i would be spending the money.

edit> if i were an outlaw of the marsh,,,hmmmm

Edited March 31, 2011 by zerostao

[Marblehead]

I will tell you the correct answer according to the most learned Taoist sages, for me to provide the answer however, will cost you $200.

 

Do you accept rubber checks?

[gendao]

OR could it happen that this could directly cause me to have some back luck in the future (according to some karma law) that was UNRELATED directly to this boy and then my ability to overcome any resulting bad karma would only come from my ability of keeping my mind blank or having a non-dualistic view of that resulting bad luck.

Exactly. If you truly believe you have transcended good/bad - then if the same thing happens to you later, you wouldn't consider that "bad" karma..

 

It's really not karma that is judgmental here then - it's still you. Karma is merely a continuation of events.

[thelerner]

Personally I don't think there is a cosmic bean counter keeping karmic score for each of us. However I think for a good person, the conscience acts (consciously or unconsciously) to create karmic results.

 

So, if deep inside you believe a good person returns money; then if you do, your subconscious will reward you. If you don't it'll look for ways subtle or unsubtle to screw you up.

 

my 2 cent world view

 

Michael

[Adishakti]

You are right Marblehead.

 

I would accept the money because it's a gift from the Universe.

 

And I would be even more glad to give it if someone asked me for it. It's an even bigger blessing for me to be able to give.

 

However answering z00se's Karma question. Yes, you build Karma - not by not returning the money but by simply feeling the "guilt" emotion.

 

You build Karma by giving the money. Positive Karma.

 

Bad luck in the future? - Maybe, if you carry guilt around, it's a negative emotion and it will maybe then attract similar -ve situations.

 

See if you can read this book. The Law of Karma by Robert E. Svoboda. Interesting.

 

I experience similar situations all the time. I just think my Guardian angel is saying hello to me by these small tokens, and feel really grateful and loved.

 

 

Ah!, but the Taoist Sage refuses nothing. Therefore it was proper to pick up the money.

 

And beside, if the money was not picked up the wind might have blown the money, separated the bills and then the kid would likely never recover all of it.

 

I don't karma even need be considered here. The old say, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." pretty much covers the situation.

[Marblehead]

And I would be even more glad to give it if someone asked me for it. It's an even bigger blessing for me to be able to give.

 

 

That never entered my mind when I made my post but it is so very true. Thanks for the 'suppliment'. (Hehehe. That's my new word of usage from that other thread.)

[z00se]

Yeah thanks for all your answers. I guess it seems that everyone thinks there is no cosmic bean and it's all in your own head.

 

I guess if i was poor and i found it and then it meant i could buy some food for me and my family to eat then the fact that someone left it there would be my good karma. I wouldn't feel bad at all and feel thankful to the tao for sending it my way.

 

If i could be non dualistic then i could keep the money but since i can't be non dualistic all the time and i have enough money that i don't need to keep some kid's birthday money i would feel guilty, then due to this it would getting myself back into a non-dualistic frame of mind would be more difficult because i would have added stress.

 

And even more to the point if i was truely non dualistic i don't think i would have picked up the money at all, rather just watched and been passive.

 

I think to truely be non dualistic and live in society is impossible.

[Marblehead]

I think to truely be non dualistic and live in society is impossible.

 

Excellent observation, I think!

[Otis]

Ah!, but the Taoist Sage refuses nothing. Therefore it was proper to pick up the money.

 

And beside, if the money was not picked up the wind might have blown the money, separated the bills and then the kid would likely never recover all of it.

 

I don't karma even need be considered here. The old say, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." pretty much covers the situation.

Excellent, Marblehead!

 

If there is such a repercussion as karma in this case, it is that: if I live my life not recognizing that the other is equal in worth and importance to me (essentially: "part of me"), then I will live in suffering.

 

If I do see the other as being of equal importance (as being "me"), then how could I conceive of holding on to the money?

 

It is not that the act of holding on to the money brings cosmic punishment, but rather that it reinforces my sense of separation from others, by justifying my importance over them. I do damage to myself, when I choose to make myself special.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Otis

[Everything]

...I wouldn't feel bad at all and feel thankful to the tao for sending it my way.

 

...And even more to the point if i was truely non dualistic i don't think i would have picked up the money at all, rather just watched and been passive....

You would be equally thankful to the Tao if you were not receiving any money, because Tao is the cause of everything.

 

Passiveness is not a good way of describing your non-dualistic self. Passiveness itself is in the world of duality. The non dualistic person would observe his actions in the moment, and accepts the fact that his actions are caused by the sum of all his conscious moments or karma so that he can turn things around from this perspective of non-dualism and all-accaptence, does the need arise to do that.

 

The good thing to do is to give it back, because nothing in the world comes freely. It would be best not to depend on this kind of luck. The act of not returning it is one of agression. Just like winning a war is an act of agression, even though you win the war, there is still someone loosing.

 

The lesson to learn: an act where you win and the other party looses and act where you loose and the other party wins is equally bad in the karmic sense.

 

So I would actually ask at least 15% for returning it, because you've protected the money from thievery, which is a solid fact in our lives, especially city lifes.

Sometimes people think, especially kind loving people, that doing loose-win acts where you loose will balance out the acts of your past where you made win-loose acts where you were the winner. The fact is that they're equally destructive from a non dualistic point of view. Would you not prefer destruction in your life I highly suggest that you choose the path of constructiveness and cooperation. Win-win.

 

Giving away money for free is not a kind act, unless you've got excess. In that case, it would be wise to throw it away so that you may not attract thieves and live a more peaceful way of life. If this is not the case, business continues as usual.

 

My question to you: what is the role of passiveness in the karmic sense?

Edited March 25, 2011 by Everything

[z00se]

 

My question to you: what is the role of passiveness in the karmic sense?

 

 

Mmmm i don't think i understand your post entirely.

 

The roll of passiveness was regarding non duality. If everything was one then i don't think i would see the worth in the money, and therefore have no reason to pick it up any more than i would pick up a stone. Only that it would attract me for some heavenly reason. I wouldn't think ahead or plan. I wouldn't make the distinction between handing it in to lost property or not because it might get pocketed along the way. I don't think any of this would come to mind, i would only do whatever i did.

 

If there is such a repercussion as karma in this case, it is that: if I live my life not recognizing that the other is equal in worth and importance to me (essentially: "part of me"), then I will live in suffering.

 

If I do see the other as being of equal importance (as being "me"), then how could I conceive of holding on to the money?

 

Yeah i agree with this, but then like i said if i was poor and i needed the money then i COULD conceive of holding onto the money because i needed it. As you said we are all equal so if i am percieving i am needing of the money then i can keep it without any karma concequences because i truely believe i need it and the tao lucked it into my hot sweaty hands!

 

Little bit like a talk i had with my parents last night... i was suggesting that nobody actually OWNS anything, we just think we own it and according to the thoughts in our head we then believe that we can do anything we want to the things that we own....when really we never owned it at all. But they turned my thinking around so that ownership of things is needed really so that people can live in peace together. Otherwise things are chaotic and too yin. There is however a level when ownership and preconcieved ideas become too much and the thoughts in peoples heads make people act insanely.

[Otis]

Yeah i agree with this, but then like i said if i was poor and i needed the money then i COULD conceive of holding onto the money because i needed it. As you said we are all equal so if i am percieving i am needing of the money then i can keep it without any karma concequences because i truely believe i need it and the tao lucked it into my hot sweaty hands!

Fair point. Virtue is never a fixed line.

[manitou]

I think it's a no-brainer to give the kid back his money if he asked for it, you then knowing it was his birthday money.

 

But the real question is, what to do if no one comes forward?

 

I would use the Reasonable Man standard on that. I would hang on to the money for a few days, maybe a week - maybe if there's a lost and found department at the place where the money was found, to let them know that a quantity of money had been lost. If someone comes forward with the right quantity lost, then I'd gladly give it to them.

 

I would do whatever it took to make my soul feel okay about keeping the money, if that's the way it turned out. Our soul is the most important thing in the world to us, why screw around with a mere 200 bucks? Or a mere million bucks? It doesn't matter. What matters is keeping our insides clean so that our vision remains clean. If one has to go through a whole series of rationalizations to keep the money, then the real answer lies underneath the rationalizations.