A gift for Non and other lust-driven men

[bodyoflight]

[Gerard]

I consider cutting off lust as one of the prime requirements to reaching enlightenment.

 

If you are not a monk or a hermit, thinking like that will only strengthen your lust. I'll recommend you working on various meridians associated with jing stagnation and smooth flow of Qi around the genital area.

 

Here you can find good info on the topic:

 

http://precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/MsgDistal.htm

[Marblehead]

I used to be lust driven so I had to look at the post. Thanks.

[Dainin]

So I guess that lust-driven women don't get to receive your "gift"! Lol!

 

Personally, I don't find anything too repulsive or impure about our human body parts. They have all evolved and work together for the purpose of our survival. This approach seems more imbalanced than lust.

 

Congratulations on reaching enlightenment though!

[Jetsun]

I think those sorts of meditations are meant for specific people at a specific point in their development, which is why you need a lama to prescribe them. One thing Osho got right was he said in the Christian west there is much guilt around sex, so he worked at trying to get people to embrace and love their sexuality before they even attempt to transcend it otherwise the method could be used as just another way to reject yourself.

[bodyoflight]

These practices can be found on bloody wikipedia which means the masters have deem it suitable practices for the general public.

 

They are meant to cut off the uncontrolled desire and lust for sex.

 

If you can control your desire and lust to the point where you can increase or decrease your lust just by thought and willpower alone, then these practices are below you.

 

A true enlightened master can and will eliminate lust when it is not needed for sex. On the other hand, he should be able to turn on his sexual desire again for dual/single sexual energy cultivation when it comes to that.

 

Sexual energy is nothing more than kundalini afterall.

 

In essence, a true enlightened master is suppose to turn on and off the sexual lusts and desires as easily as a tap.

 

BTW, I have tried using this meditation for the last 30 minutes while walking on the streets and it works wonders! I felt immediate revulsion instead of attraction to the woman's body.

Edited March 25, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Medhavi]

This is akin to a knee-jerk reaction.

[bodyoflight]

This is akin to a knee-jerk reaction.

 

It works and that is all that matters.

 

This post is numbered 111 for a good reason.

Edited March 25, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Medhavi]

You can deceive yourself into a particular mode of thinking and claim that it "works".

There have been extreme cases of Men who would refuse to even look at a woman's face.

Do you think that is insightful behaviour?

As Jetsun mentioned, these are archaic practises that were likely meant for a specific part of the training of Theravadin monks to attain "access concentration", as it is often called.

But more often than not, this is an elaborate way to suppress natural energy patterns in your own body, leading to either stagnation or perversion. I suppose I don't not to put up references to rather scandalous behaviour found in all manners of Ashrams and Monasteries around the world.

 

When you no longer seek to wade in the world, you simply move on. My understanding of true renunciation is that it must come naturally, as part of your learning process. If you try to force renunciation with these kind of crude practises, you are just asking for trouble in the long term.

If you imagine everyone as a skeleton, it can work immediately. But it is a deliberate coating of your perception that just covers up inherent issues with your sexuality.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Medhavi

[bodyoflight]

You can deceive yourself into a particular mode of thinking and claim that it "works".

There have been extreme cases of Men who would refuse to even look at a woman's face.

Do you think that is insightful behaviour?

 

This is not a practice of aversion to women. This is a practice about eliminating sexual lust.

 

You can deceive yourself into thinking that being controlled by sexual lust and achieving enlightenment at the same time is possible.

 

Do you think this is insightful behavior? Or are you going to call this theravada practice a demonic practice?

 

You know, when the buddha meditated under the bodhi tree, a host of demons tried to interrupt his meditation by throwing stones and sticks at him.

 

You sound very much like one of those demons.

[bodyoflight]

As Jetsun mentioned, these are archaic practises that were likely meant for a specific part of the training of Theravadin monks to attain "access concentration", as it is often called.

But more often than not, this is an elaborate way to suppress natural energy patterns in your own body, leading to either stagnation or perversion. I suppose I don't not to put up references to rather scandalous behaviour found in all manners of Ashrams and Monasteries around the world.

 

When you no longer desire woman, you simply move on. My understanding of true renunciation is that it must come naturally, as part of your learning process. If you try to force renunciation with these kind of crude practises, you are just asking for trouble in the long term.

 

Scandulous behaviour were found cos the priests and monks are too weak to withstand the demonic forces of sexual lust.

 

Sexual energy can be both benign or evil. It is only when you turn sexual energy into kundalini energy for cultivation then can true enlightenment be attained.

 

This practice is a practice to turn wasteful usage of sexual energy into kundalini energy for cultivation. Including sexual cultivation if need be.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dalai-Lamas-Secret-Temple-Paintings/dp/0500510032/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1301053184&sr=8-3

 

This book is about how the highest levels of tibetan lamas practice tantra sex in order to cultivate. But before they engage in tantra sexual cultivation, first of all, they have to control their mind and their basic animal lusts. Otherwise, their human ego will take over and they will become mad.

 

Ie this practice is to help you control your sexual energy instead of being controlled by it.

 

Any aspersions cast on this wonderful practice of cutting off the demons of sexual lust is akin to demons calling down buddhist practices, I am sorry to say.

 

 

If you imagine everyone as a skeleton, it can work immediately. But it is a deliberate coating of your perception that just covers up inherent issues with your sexuality.

 

If it works for the monks, it will definitely work for other humans as well.

 

I strongly recommend that you refrain from any further criticisms which the gods might look upon as demonic.

Edited March 25, 2011 by bodyoflight

[bodyoflight]

I like to add some outlooks on lust from a gnostic forum.

 

http://gnosticteachings.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1400

 

Samael teaches that if the image of a beautiful woman (or man) were to reach the mind (impression), to imagine the woman growing old, wilting and dying, just as the beautiful flower wilts and dies. Our bodies are contructed from, and composed of, the matter of the four elements of the physical plane (Malkuth) and will return through the process of decay like any other physical being...this deserves reflection.

 

One can take this a step further and reflect on the body itself both internally and externally. For instance, if the woman (or man) in your dream was to have all of the skin peeled off of her body, exposing all of the muscles, blood, etc. you may be less likely to identify with, and desire that image.

 

Gotama Sakyamuni, Nagarjuna, Santideva and others within the Buddhist traditon give powerful antidotes for dealing with lust and transforming the images and impressions associated. These meditations are designed to reflect on the body as it is, within and without.

 

Some of the teachers describe the body as a sewer filled with excrement, snot, urine, etc. Reflecting on the body this way in meditation can dispell some of the ignorance that lies at the feet of lust. Reflecting on the body in this way, when confronted with images and impressions of "attractive" bodies or bodies we desire is repulsive.

 

Repulsive is defined as, "to drive away or repel." In this case one can "drive away" lust and identification by reflecting on the body as it truly is...

 

....an organic sewer made of the four elements that produces excrement, urine, and snot that will decay into mud....

 

Obviously, if we are identified with our own bodies then we will be identified with other's bodies.

 

Additionally, if we are identified with the physical plane then we are subject to the associated ignorance and its consequences. (See writings on SOL and awakening the consciousness)

 

If we are identified with images as realities rather than representations or reflections then we will suffer the consequences of our ignorance, the sleep of the consciousness. (See the Dream Yoga course)

 

The impression that triggered the lust must be comprehended also. The relationship between external event (impression) and the internal state (reaction) is a must know. This reminds us of the wonderful teachings of dependent origination. (See Karma course)

 

One must also comprehend Kant's "the exterior is a reflection of the interior," in relation to internal states and so-called "external" events. (See Revolution of Dialectic and others)

 

One must comprehend sight, smell, sound, touch, and taste. Meditation on the 5 senses is necessary to transcend physical identification with images, forms, bodies, and is the ground work that leads to not identifying with internal images as well.

 

"The clairvoyant falls into error when he or she takes the image for reality" - Rudolf Steiner

 

The Buddha, in the Sutra on the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, goes through meditation on the body's repulsive parts, meditation on the four elements, meditation on the senses, as well as the Charnal Ground Contemplations associated with death and decay of the body. These teachings and meditations are essential...and beautiful...and absolutely practical and effective.

 

I have found that egos associated with lust and identification with the body don't like it when the antidotes are applied...which is a good sign. They will resist, tell you stories, and generally make it feel uncomfortable to do so. Therefore it is important to expect and calculate the inevitable resistance.

 

Lust has roots in ignorance and identification.

 

The seemingly harmless manifestations of lust that you spoke of:

 

QUOTE

Should I instead begin meditating on the more seemingly harmless manifestations of lust, like perhaps looking at women or thinking about them?

 

 

...are feeding the egos of lust that are associated with the near falls and falls in the night. The reactions in the three brains caused by those impressions need to be photographed and then cancelled. We can't afford to allow them to linger and waste energy or perhaps strengthen existing egos. We obviously fornicate emotionally and mentally with those impressions.

 

Additionally, the impression that triggered the lust must be comprehended. Therefore one must comprehend sight, smell, hearing, touch, and taste...as well as memory (untransformed impressions).

 

Those impressions need to be transformed before you go to sleep.

 

Do not allow the sun to set on your lust.

 

Samael states in the Revolution of the Dialectic that, "One is devolving if the digestion of impressions does not exist."

 

I suggest studying the book Revolution of the Dialectic, particularly the chapters on rest therapeutics, transformation of impressions, and the mental stomach. Samael's writings on Awakening the Consciousness and

Subject

Object

Location

(as in Perfect Matrimony, Lamasery, etc.) are also a necessity for the transformation of impressions, with respect to comprehending identification, fascination, and sleep the of the consciousness, as well as awakening and non-identification.

 

The Buddha Sakyamuni terrifically walks us through these issues and antidotes in the Mahasatipatthana Sutra, or The Greater Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness. He is teaching non-identification, mindfulness.

 

Santideva speaks simply and directly about this in A Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life.

 

These resources and reflections have assisted me greatly...Perhaps they will be helpful for you.

Edited March 25, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Medhavi]

Stop simply aping ideas of other men. Read less, observe more. Find a way to become at ease with your own sexuality and stop projecting your issues onto other men here.

Since you seem to be into Buddhism so much, I advise you to also listen to his own teachings on aversion and attachment and most important of all, critical thinking, i.e question "his" teachings as well. You have no way of knowing whether or not he lived or taught as you read his purported teachings more than 2500 years later.

Take these stories with a big grain of salt.

 

And yes, this is definitely an aversion towards the feminine as well since it is only in dependent relation to them that your sexual lust arises, if you are a straight man. Why would do you consider it necessary to "eliminate" sexual lust in the first place? Without it, you would not have been born. Sexual energy is one of the expressions of creativity. You create something. You want to kill off creativity? From the kinds of monks I met in my field studies I would think that more often than not, this "redirection of energy for higher purpose" backfires. And no, if you say those were simply monks misguided by El Diablo, then this practise does not help Bums here either.

I would agree with your notion that sublimation is the way to go if you want to refine your being and relation to others but the way you write seems to suggest to me that you simply took in the surface content of lots of books on Buddhism and then came here to project your issues onto others, thinking that this comes with a good intention to help others.

 

But apparently, you are not open to criticism. Kind of curious considering you seem to therefore ignore one of the most important teachings of both Buddhism and modern science.

 

-Your fellow Demon

Edited March 25, 2011 by Medhavi

[bodyoflight]

Stop simply aping ideas of other men. Read less, observe more. Find a way to become at ease with your own sexuality and stop projecting your issues onto other men here.

Since you seem to be into Buddhism so much, I advise you to also listen to his own teachings on aversion and attachment and most important of all, critical thinking, i.e question "his" teachings as well. You have no way of knowing whether or not he lived or taught as you read his purported teachings more than 2500 years later.

Take these stories with a big grain of salt.

 

And yes, this is definitely an aversion towards the feminine as well since it is only in dependant relation to them that your sexual lust arises, if you are a straight man.

I would agree with your notion that sublimation is the way to go if you want to refine your being and relation to others but the way you write seems to suggest to me that you simply took in the surface content of lots of books on Buddhism and then came here to project your issues onto others, thinking that this comes with a good intention to help others.

 

But apparently, you are not open to criticism. Kind of curious considering you seem to therefore ignore one of the most important teachings of both Buddhism and modern science.

 

-Your fellow Demon

 

Jeez, I came here with a technique to help men control their sexual lust and you say this is me projecting my issues into others? LOL.

 

Btw, didn't I say that the highest buddhist lamas do engage in sexual tantric practices? But that is only AFTER they cut off their lust for sex.

 

Cutting off your desire and lust for sex doesn't mean you can't participate in sex.

 

It simply means you are having sex without the hunger in your mind and loins. So how is this an aversion to femininity?

 

Apparently, you are not wise enough not to look at a gift-horse in the mouth.

 

Don't criticize without first understanding the game. And judging by your remarks, you understand very little indeed.

[ralis]

I used to be lust driven so I had to look at the post. Thanks.

 

I find that hard to believe since your main interests are short and bikinis.

Do you live on the beach?

[Marblehead]

I find that hard to believe since your main interests are short and bikinis.

Do you live on the beach?

 

It is a 45 minute drive for me to the beach.

 

Yes, I still look with lustful eyes but I'm too old to be touching anymore.

[RyanO]

I think for the average person a good way to do this would be to combine it with the Inner Smile or Loving-Kindness meditation. Sending the body some love and transmuting lust that way. People have enough body issues as it is.

[bodyoflight]

I think for the average person a good way to do this would be to combine it with the Inner Smile or Loving-Kindness meditation. Sending the body some love and transmuting lust that way. People have enough body issues as it is.

 

The Creator, The Dao and the higher forces of the Universe (whatever you call it) created this game-system where we are the players.

 

In this game, we are plagued by the ego and the need for sex but this need for sex is inbuilt in each of us so that we can find love through sex.

 

This is why there are so many damn crap on TV and in the movies about sex and love, sex and love, sex and love and hardly any truths about the real game itself.

 

The real game is finding love through higher consciousness. If you can find the love through higher consciousness, then you could skip the lower animal steps of finding love through sex.

 

Thus the existence of the deva, asura, human and animal realms. Lower realms of life-forms have to seek love through sex but higher life-forms can find the love through consciousness alone.

 

As a lama recently told me, you can avoid the game by jumping out of the loop and this meditation on revulsion of the human body is not the be-all and end-all but it is a start for lust-driven men like Non.

 

Destroy your lust first and other attachments and seek love through the higher consciousness.

 

That way, you can become a gamemaster instead of being a player.

Edited March 25, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Jetsun]

The real game is finding love through higher consciousness. If you can find the love through higher consciousness, then you could skip the lower animal steps of finding love through sex.

You can only get to this stage if you have embraced and normalised your animal sexual centre in the first place, Tibetans don't have hundreds of years of sexual repressive conditioning to work through like many of us do in the west so not many of them understand this.

 

Ken Wilber explains some of these issues very well about how when you transcend a level of your development you have to include all that is below it and if you are still repressed and in the dark in certain areas they will come back and undermine any progress you try to make in your future development

[ralis]

The Creator, The Dao and the higher forces of the Universe (whatever you call it) created this game-system where we are the players.

 

In this game, we are plagued by the ego and the need for sex but this need for sex is inbuilt in each of us so that we can find love through sex.

 

This is why there are so many damn crap on TV and in the movies about sex and love, sex and love, sex and love and hardly any truths about the real game itself.

 

The real game is finding love through higher consciousness. If you can find the love through higher consciousness, then you could skip the lower animal steps of finding love through sex.

 

Thus the existence of the deva, asura, human and animal realms. Lower realms of life-forms have to seek love through sex but higher life-forms can find the love through consciousness alone.

 

As a lama recently told me, you can avoid the game by jumping out of the loop and this meditation on revulsion of the human body is not the be-all and end-all but it is a start for lust-driven men like Non.

 

Destroy your lust first and other attachments and seek love through the higher consciousness.

 

That way, you can become a gamemaster instead of being a player.

 

 

You believe your maps of reality and those given to you are absolutely correct? Have you stopped to consider and observe reality as opposed to "my lama says so" or "the Buddha says so?" Why not think and observe for yourself?

[Encephalon]

You can only get to this stage if you have embraced and normalised your animal sexual centre in the first place, Tibetans don't have hundreds of years of sexual repressive conditioning to work through like many of us do in the west so not many of them understand this.

 

Ken Wilber explains some of these issues very well about how when you transcend a level of your development you have to include all that is below it and if you are still repressed and in the dark in certain areas they will come back and undermine any progress you try to make in your future development

 

I sign off with Wilber and try to cite him where I can. I agree with Gerard too; these practices are for those in a monastic environment or for modern adepts who are committed to practice and regular retreats. I've leveled some pretty fierce criticisms of Non in the past but I question the wisdom of singling him out for the purpose of introducing this subject matter. He suffers enough already.

[ralis]

Tibetans don't have hundreds of years of sexual repressive conditioning to work through like many of us do in the west so not many of them understand this.

 

 

 

Why defer to the Tibetans as if their monastic and theocratic culture was somehow perfect? Exactly, where have you obtained this knowledge? I am certain a lama gave you this idea.

[Jetsun]

Why defer to the Tibetans as if their monastic and theocratic culture was somehow perfect? Exactly, where have you obtained this knowledge? I am certain a lama gave you this idea.

 

Not perfect but more natural and psychologically balanced. I guess I get this knowledge from studying Tibetan Buddhism for a few years and reading many accounts of that area of the world from many different sources and meeting some Tibetan Lamas, even if you go to places like Bhutan today you will see how much more natural things are especially with regards to the primal energies.

 

When the first Tibetan Lama's came to the West it is clear from their writings that not many of them fully understood the western psyche, for example Chogyam Trungpa thought he could cure mentally distressed people by putting them into certain body positions to balance their energies, but none of it worked because he didn't have a grasp of just how deep some of these problems went as it was so alien to him; there is that saying that in the Tibetan language there is no word for self hatred and from what I can see it is only the Lama's who were born in the West or have spent a great many years here really understand how deep the guilt and concepts like original sin permeate our psyche. That's the impression I get from my readings anyway.

[Astral Monk]

Hmm...

 

This is not a practice of aversion to women.

 

And yet...

 

BTW, I have tried using this meditation for the last 30 minutes while walking on the streets and it works wonders! I felt immediate revulsion instead of attraction to the woman's body.

 

 

Being repulsed by something is akin to having an aversion to it. An aversion is a dislike, repugnance, a pushing away from the thing. Clearly your practice is geared towards aversion of women.

 

 

Sex is natural, sex is fun. Lust is just another energy. It has a powerful purpose. Getting rid of lust is not the answer. Putting it in proper balance in your life is. We in the west are inundated with sexual imagery, all presented with a background of repression, which is confusing. We have extremes of provocation in all forms of media. Thus we can easily become fixated and unbalanced.

 

In reality nothing is really 'disgusting' or 'repulsive', so meditating on the gross fluids of the body is just reactionary--another type of attachment. One ought to see the sublime equanimity of shit and sunshine rather than use an 'ignorant' distaste of the one to condition ourselves to reject our love of the other.

 

8)

[alexandrov]

no offense bodyoflight but I think while this kind of practice may be useful for very few people it will likley do far more harm then good to the average westerner.

 

Your views on sexual energy to me seems grossly oversimplified. Many people in the west have so many sexual blockages and problems already that if they are not taken care of before trying to eliminate lustful desires or activate kundalini that these practices will most likley backfire. As a person who has known many westerners (and been one myself) trying the whole eliminate lust business id say ive seen a 90% failure rate. And many times the failure itself is not benign and peoples sexual centers become all screwed up and blocked or they end up being perverted in some way or another. Even if none of these things happen these people tend to be very awkward socially especially when interacting with the opposite sex even if they were not before.

 

Im not saying its a bad practice I just think its unsuitable for the vast majority of westerners living a modern lifestyle. ONE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT RULE IN CULTIVATION I HAVE REALIZED IS THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING SOUNDS GOOD IN THEORY DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL WORK FOR A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL IN PRACTICE.

 

If you think this practice is for you and you notice no detrimental side effects then i say go for it, however today there are so many people who stick to a practice because they have fanatically instilled some notion in their head that it will give them certain specific reults as promised WHILE IGNORNIG ANY DETRIMENTAL EFFECTS THAT MAY OCCUR BECAUSE OF THE PRACTICE. they ignore the detrimental effects because they believe so strongly that a particular practice WILL give them exactly what they want.

 

thinking in terms of wasted energy etc is far too simple and is a very common mistake many people make in my opinion, for most westerners they need to focus on better QUALITY sexual energy and interactions before they start focusing on quantity, otherwise most of us just end up with a lot of very destructive energy inside ourselvs.