[TTC Study] Chapter 30 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 30

 

John Wu

 

He who knows how to guide a ruler in the path of Tao

Does not try to override the world with force of arms.

It is in the nature of a military weapon to turn against its wielder.

Wherever armies are stationed; thorny bushes grow.

After a great war, bad years invariably follow.

What you want is to protect efficiently your own state,

But not to aim at self-aggrandizement.

After you have attained your purpose,

You must not parade your success,

You must not boast of your ability,

You must not feel proud,

You must rather regret that you had not been able to prevent the war.

You must never think of conquering others by force.

For to be over-developed is to hasten decay,

And this is against Tao,

And what is against Tao will soon cease to be.

 

 

English/Feng

 

Whenever you advise a ruler in the way of Tao,

Counsel him not to use force to conquer the universe.

For this would only cause resistance.

Thorn bushes spring up wherever the army has passed.

Lean years follow in the wake of a great war.

Just do what needs to be done.

Never take advantage of power.

Achieve results,

But never glory in them.

Achieve results,

But never boast.

Achieve results,

But never be proud.

Achieve results,

Because this is the natural way.

Achieve results,

But not through violence.

Force is followed by loss of strength.

This is not the way of Tao.

That which goes against the Tao comes to an early end.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

Those who assist their rulers with the Way,

Don't use weapons to commit violence in the world.

Such deeds easily rebound.

In places where armies are stationed, thorns and brambles will grow.

The good [general] achieves his result and that's all;

He does not use the occasion to seize strength from it.

He achieves his result but does not become arrogant;

He achieves his result but does not praise his deeds;

He achieves his result and yet does not brag.

He achieves his result, yet he abides with the result because he has no choice.

This is called achieving one's result [without] using force.

When things reach their primes, they get old;

We called this "not the Way."

What is not the Way will come to an early end.

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[devoid]

Thanks Marblehead,

 

The good, humble master - very nice.

 

I am missing a note on the humble master always willing to learn, but I guess that can be found implicitly with going along with (rather than against) the forces of the Universe. I suppose if one is already a master of oneself, the Universe and the Tao, such things are self-evident

[Marblehead]

Thanks Marblehead,

 

The good, humble master - very nice.

 

I am missing a note on the humble master always willing to learn, but I guess that can be found implicitly with going along with (rather than against) the forces of the Universe. I suppose if one is already a master of oneself, the Universe and the Tao, such things are self-evident

 

Actually I do speak to that but it is incorporated in one of my favorite concepts. That is, when I say we should observe the universe, or at least our own little world, and try to understanding the processes of nature I am speaking to learning. And yes, this process includes listening to other people and reading what other people have written.

 

So the concept of learning isn't missing, I think it is just a given.

 

All that is written in Chapter 30 requires learning, as I mentioned above, to be able to apply the concepts.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Marblehead

[Apech]

Henricks seems to have a line missing:

 

"Lean years follow in the wake of a great war. "

 

I wonder why.

 

 

This makes me think of Libya and previously Iraq and Afghanistan. Violence yields unpredictable results which tend to rebound on you. Better to do only what has to be done and then get out - if this is possible. The application of superior force is only temporary and leads to weakness. An interesting chapter.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Apech
typo

[Marblehead]

Henricks seems to have a line missing:

 

"Lean years follow in the wake of a great war. "

 

I wonder why.

 

From his notes for this chapter:

 

The standard text adds a line after 4 - "Great wars are always followed by famines." The line is also missing from a few other tests and has been suspected for some time as being commentary on the previous line.

 

(That line did not exist in the Ma-wang-tui texts nor does it exist in the Guodian strips.)

[manitou]

I think the most poignant thing about this chapter is the admonition to remain humble after victory has been achieved. This applies not only to a good general but to a good person as well.

 

I'm looking at a copy of Lin Yutang's chapter 30, so I'll use him to make the point, as I've got him on my lap....

 

Therefore a good general effects his purpose and stops.

He dares not rely upon the strength of arms;

Effects his purpose and does not glory in it;

Effects his purpose and does not boast of it;

Effects his purpose and does not take pride in it;

Effects his purpose as a regrettable necessity;

Effects his purpose but does not love violence.

 

All of this can be applied to us individually. As Don Juan constantly admonishes Castaneda, "don't indulge in anything once you've done it". This is very difficult to do, if we're honest with ourselves. This goes very much to our ego naturally wanting to revel in our success. Perhaps to replay it over and over in our minds, to actually find ourselves talking out loud to ourselves about it when we're driving on the freeway.

 

Not boasting of it? Whoa. Are there that many of us actually capable of walking away from a moment of great success and not boasting just a little? But to retain the power of the Tao is to keep it within; this is also the message from don Juan; the more we talk about it, the more the power is robbed from it. We seem to receive the most benefit from anything if we keep it to ourselves and not boast of anything.

 

It is understandable that the Taoist general would see his purpose as regrettable. After all, he would understand the Oneness of all of nature, and therefore knowing that it is actually part of himself that he is having to kill off. Naturally this would be distressing to him.

[Marblehead]

... so I'll use him to make the point, as I've got him on my lap....

 

I hope your husband isn't a jealous man.

[manitou]

I hope your husband isn't a jealous man.

 

 

 

The little man sitting on my lap is so old and wizened that Joe doesn't even seem to notice.

[Marblehead]

The little man sitting on my lap is so old and wizened that Joe doesn't even seem to notice.

 

Hehehe.

[Aaron]

Hehehe.

 

Here's my translation of the Guodian Chapter 30.

 

 

For the person who assists a ruler in the Way

is one who does not desire to use the sword to gain strength in the world.

For one who is good at harvesting fruit

does not harvest fruit by plucking it too soon,

He does not cut down a tree because it has no fruit,

he is not willing to be proud of the fruit he grows,

nor is he willing to boast of the fruit he harvests,

and when he speaks, he speaks of what is by nature right and correct.

 

And when he is finished, his harvest is bountiful,

the trees he grows last

and bear fruit from what is good and loved.

[Marblehead]

Here's my translation of the Guodian Chapter 30.

 

With no other considerations I will simply say "I like that."

[dust]

The Chinese that I've used is quite different from the received version. Many will probably disagree with some of the choices in both transcription and translation... but I think the chapter works well like this:

 

 

以衜差人今者 To conquer with the Way,

不谷以兵剛於天下 There is no need for war;

善者果而已不以取剛 The gentle man achieves results not through strength.

果而弗癹 Result without destruction,

果而弗喬 Result without pride,

果而弗矝 Result without pity,

是謂果而不剛 Is called result without strength;

亓事好 This is good*

 

 

差 -- ancient version of 搓, to grind (millet). Listed as 佐 (assist) in most sources. Obviously "grind" is an odd meaning...

 

今 -- as far as I can tell, originally this meant to bow the head and mumble in submission. Also odd?

 

-- but, combined, 差人今者 could therefore mean "grind into submission" ? Just a thought.

 

剛 -- listed as 强 in all sources I've come across so far, but to me looks much closer to this variant: http://www.zdic.net/z/84/js/201DD.htm which means "rigid/strong" -- so, similar to "force"

 

癹 -- normally listed as 伐, the GD character has 4 right hands above one larger right hand. To flatten (grass).

 

 

* Most sources end with 好长. On the GD, however, there is a clear ending mark after 好, and the next chapter (15) begins with "长古..."

[dawei]

This is a hard one to comment on as the GD exists but differs quite a bit from all other versions.

 

As the above Hendrick's is his MWD translation, maybe his GD should be given:

 

One who uses the Way to assist the ruler of men

Does not desire to use weapons to force his way through the land.

. . .

. . .

. . .

One who is good at such things achieves his result and that's all.

He does not use the occasion to make himself stronger still.

He achieves his results but does not brag about it;

He achieves his results but is not arrogant about it;

He achieves his results but is not conceited about it;

. . .

This is called "achieving your result but not being vicious"

Such deeds are good and endure.

. . .

. . .

. . .

 

---------

 

Not sure where some of your translations are coming from but

差 -- ancient version of 搓, to grind (millet). Listed as 佐 (assist) in most sources. Obviously "grind" is an odd meaning...

 

seems questionable to me.

 

Hendricks shows the GD character and it looks like neither but does use 差 in the end.

[dust]

I started with this: http://www.docin.com/p-309516841.html

and of course a scan of the GD itself

and found some character variant websites

 

For 差

A number of variants here: http://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw/yitia/fra/fra01153.htm

And the meaning, I took from: http://dict.shufaji.com/word-897.html

 

“造字本义：手持禾谷在脱粒器具上搓转，使谷子脱粒”

 

差 seems to be the closest, and as none of its meanings (error/differ/bad/grind) seem very likely, and all other versions use 佐, the writer probably meant 佐. But that's not what he wrote, so...I'm just trying things...

 

I should also have noted that after

 

善者果而已不以取剛 The gentle man achieves results not through strength.

 

there is a 。on the slip, which is why I translated that line the way I did (similarly to Addiss http://terebess.hu/english/tao/addiss.html#Kap30 but noting that 者 means person -- 善者 good/gentle person)

 

 

 

Also, as far as the last part of Henricks's translation...he uses brag, arrogant, and conceited in 3 different lines. The GD characters are:

 

癹 -- which meant "flatten" -- also listed as 伐，"cut down, subjugate, attack, brag"

喬 -- which means "tall, lofty, proud" or 驕, also "proud"

矝 -- which means "pity, show sympathy, conceited"

 

Though every one, using a less ancient meaning, could be translated similarly (brag, proud, conceited) I question why we wouldn't consider other meanings?

[silent thunder]

Henricks seems to have a line missing:

 

"Lean years follow in the wake of a great war. "

 

I wonder why.

 

 

This makes me think of Libya and previously Iraq and Afghanistan. Violence yields unpredictable results which tend to rebound on you. Better to do only what has to be done and then get out - if this is possible. The application of superior force is only temporary and leads to weakness. An interesting chapter.

I agree, the implication of this missing line is important.

 

relates for me, to the dandelion principle inherent in violence...

I go to my lawn and kick the living crud out of the dandelions and next year... there are many many more...

[Marblehead]

This is a hard one to comment on as the GD exists but differs quite a bit from all other versions.

Henricks does a fine job in his notes to this chapter in explaining the three missing lines between Lines 2 and 3 ans well as the one missing lines between Lines 7 and 8. And he notes that Line 9 is the last line in the Guodian but there are an additional three lines in the Ma-wang-dui.

[dust]

Henricks does a fine job in his notes to this chapter in explaining the three missing lines between Lines 2 and 3 ans well as the one missing lines between Lines 7 and 8. And he notes that Line 9 is the last line in the Guodian but there are an additional three lines in the Ma-wang-dui.

 

Looking at the TTC as a whole, much is considered "missing" from the GD, but looking at the GD itself, and trying to learn what was being said, I'm trying to look at it from the angle that anything post-GD is "extra".

 

The GD is by far the earliest known version, and with as many differing versions as there are, the TTC as we know it today is clearly a product of some centuries of amending and addition by a number of people, so it seems unfair that everyone should treat the GD as if it were written by a child who simply didn't understand the intricacies of the newer versions..

 

And as far as chapter 30 is concerned (save a couple of individual character problems), the GD version as a whole makes absolute sense -- concise and with a clear message, the "missing" lines are entirely unnecessary to follow it.

 

Also, I have an irascible tendency towards arguing against popular opinion....forgive me..

Edited September 14, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

Also, I have an irascible tendency towards arguing against popular opinion....forgive me..

Hehehe. You aren't really all that much of a tough guy. We agree most of the time.

 

Looking at the TTC as a whole, much is considered "missing" from the GD, but looking at the GD itself, and trying to learn what was being said, I'm trying to look at it from the angle that anything post-GD is "extra".

But here we won't agree. I will take Henricks' view that the GD are a tutor's notes. They should not be taken to be the entire TTC of his day. What was in the tomb was bits and pieces of various documents that he used, and they were selective bits and pieces only, not complete works.

[dust]

They should not be taken to be the entire TTC of his day. What was in the tomb was bits and pieces of various documents that he used, and they were selective bits and pieces only, not complete works.

Well it does seem impertinent to disagree with someone like Henricks who has 30 years experience on me, but for now I'll continue to approach it as a complete document. Where would accepting yin be without troublesome yang?