How is Wu Wei different from laziness?

[Marblehead]

 

Please do elaborate

Oh, okay.

 

The concept I look to whenever talking about the concept of wu wei or doing things is that whatever it is we have decided to do we should do the best we can do.  In competition. if we decided to get involved in such things, we should do the best we can.  It shouldn't matter too much (some would say it shouldn't matter at all) if we win or lose but rather that we did the best we could.

 

Doing the best we could brings a bit of satisfaction, doesn't matter if we impressed anyone else or won anything.

 

Of course, when speaking of wu wei, we do only those things that need be done.  If something really didn't need to be done then we shouldn't have done anything.  But here too, we want what we undertake to have a successful outcome.

[9th]

If everyone in world history had adhered to wu wei, what would actually get accomplished?

 

The way an acorn becomes an oak tree, that is wu wei.  Does this answer your question?

 

In terms of humanity, as the taoists see them - wu wei is a conscious harmony of the earthly and celestial.  These terms are metaphorical at best for modern people, so such a description and the basic concept it alludes to probably holds very little amount of the detailed technical information it would contain for other peoples of other times.  

 

Modern people have virtually no conscious connection to the celestial, however they retain an unconscious harmony with it.  It is the nature of the celestial which contains all possibilities, so its accordance is infinite and unfathomable.  Yet the consciousness of humanity, especially in our modern times, is stymied by a dysfunctional adherence to methods by which the earthly is exploited.  It is a fractured, fragmented consciousness - it is not whole, but broken into parts that cannot see each other.  Thus the manifestation of that consciousness results in our modern world, because self-destruction flows by means of ignoring it.  The exploitation and inevitable destruction of the earthly is enacted by ignoring the celestial.  This is true at a social level as well as a personal one.  In fact, society itself is only a reflection of the collective inner state of humanity.  It truly begins from within.

 

The idea of governance of the world of humanity in terms of wu wei was an interesting development in terms of institutionalized taoism from the mouth of The Old Man.  However, in all such advisory matters the natural order is still shown to reign supreme.  How many rulers of men have actually followed such dictates?  The modern world is the result of many generations of people with entrenched principals of greed and tyranny.  The fact that such principals have become increasingly genteel and "refined" is simply a matter of technological advancement.

 

It wont last forever.  Population increases exponentially, not in a linear way.  The resources it takes to sustain such an amount of people wont scale the same way according to our current trends.  Crunch time is on the way.  And thats not even mentioning the other (increasingly likely) potential possibilities of global events.  At this point, the only way wu wei will come to the whole world is through a swift kick in the ass to the entire species.  Let me tell you that it will not be fun times.

Edited December 30, 2015 by 9th

[9th]

 

[Marblehead]

The way an acorn becomes an oak tree, that is wu wei. 

I like that.

[Rara]

Oh, okay.

 

The concept I look to whenever talking about the concept of wu wei or doing things is that whatever it is we have decided to do we should do the best we can do. In competition. if we decided to get involved in such things, we should do the best we can. It shouldn't matter too much (some would say it shouldn't matter at all) if we win or lose but rather that we did the best we could.

 

Doing the best we could brings a bit of satisfaction, doesn't matter if we impressed anyone else or won anything.

 

Of course, when speaking of wu wei, we do only those things that need be done. If something really didn't need to be done then we shouldn't have done anything. But here too, we want what we undertake to have a successful outcome.

Yeah ok...I can't add to that

[PLB]

In regards to the laziness idea, it is much more work to let things play out and hold back. It is a terrible idea in many ways. All the places one could have intervened and changed things. But there is the rub. What is being changed because I acted to change them? The question is not a rhetorical submission to fate but comes from seeing how things come down over and over again. We should act and respond with great energy when the thing is clear. But so many things are not like that. The certainty we march out with tramples something never understood.

 

We have these enormous feet.

[Marblehead]

In regards to the laziness idea, it is much more work to let things play out and hold back.

And if it causes internal conflict then we are not doing what our nature is telling us to do.

[Brian]

In regards to the laziness idea, it is much more work to let things play out and hold back. It is a terrible idea in many ways. All the places one could have intervened and changed things. But there is the rub. What is being changed because I acted to change them? The question is not a rhetorical submission to fate but comes from seeing how things come down over and over again. We should act and respond with great energy when the thing is clear. But so many things are not like that. The certainty we march out with tramples something never understood.

 

We have these enormous feet.

This is very much my understanding, too.

[Rara]

Yeah ok...I can't add to that

Ok, yes I can.

 

In Steve's example from Zhuangzi, he talks about the declining performance under pressure. This would be me.

 

My point was that those who crumble under the pressure but excel in their own company should not try and compete with those that are in a "higher league" for this reason.

 

So wu wei is subject to its context. For example, the world's greatest footballer could enter a state of wu wei when playing at his absolute best, from muscle memory to having an all round good day. You know, when you just wake up and everything just falls into place and all is done with little effort or concentration. I could enter the same state playing guitar in my bedroom or cooking in my own kitchen. Put me on a stage, and I cannot compete with Eric Clapton or Gordon Ramsay.

 

Now, I'm talking about skills aquired more than anything as it is the easiest example of wu wei, I find. But as long as we stay within our realms of skill and interest, we can find wu wei regardless of what "league" we are in.

 

I hope this makes sense.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Rara

[Marblehead]

See?  You had something to say.

 

True,  Trying to imitate Eric Clapton or Leslie West is not the thing to do.

 

At a Bluegrass festival a while back there was a picker who was doing Doc Watson songs and he would occasionally miss a lick.  Later during his break I went up to talk with him and mentioned that it is difficult to play like someone who plays perfectly.

 

We all have our own natural skills.  I can't play guitar - or any instrument.  But I can distinguish when someone has missed a lick, especially with the more complicated tunes.

 

But still, if one can play an instrument pretty well people will listen.  Music does that to most people.

 

As to trying to be perfect, well, I think that involves too much ego and our excessive ego will trip us up most of the time.

 

Perhaps to ignore those who are watching and listening and just let our self get "into" the music would work better?

 

I also think that worrying about whether or not we are going to make a mistake is excessive ego too.  We make mistakes.  99.9~ percent of us.  (It has been said that there have been perfect people.  I've never met one.)

 

Yes, as long as we know our capabilities and capacities and stay within those limits we will experience few failures.  But then, we need periodically test our limits and push them on occasion without fear of failure.

[NotVoid]

If everyone in world history had adhered to wu wei, what would actually get accomplished?

 

Anything could have been accomplished, but nothing would ever have been done...

[chuangzu]

In my understanding a technical translation of Wu Wei means exactly Non-doing, but this is not the same as doing nothing.

It's closer to the meaning of doing without using force or effort rather than doing nothing at all, however there may be cases where this may entail doing nothing or waiting for the right moment.

 

In the case of the Archer who shoots for gold he cannot hit the target because his mind is distracted by thinking about the gold instead of being totally focussed and absorbed on the target. Zen archery for example teaches to shoot without actually aiming at the target, using posture, breathing and intuition rather than a logical method of actually aiming. This method takes longer but in the end makes a more reliable archer. The same is true of T'ai Chi practice where the mind is completely focussed on the movements without thinking about fighting. 

 

However the meaning of Wu in my previous post is not a translation of the word 'not' but probably meaning to dance, and in this sense it means dancing effortlessly and flowing with the rhythm of the music in a relaxed way, so much so it puts the dancer into a trance-like state. This is the same kind of relaxed but focussed state you find yourself in after a Tai Chi session, it's almost as if you accept everything, nothing bothers you, you feel a part of the flow around you, this is where Wu Wei ceases to become a logical kind of definition and becomes a state of mind that can only really be communicated about with others who have experienced the same thing, which most people will have done at some point. Some of us who are involved in art or music, Tai Chi or some other endeavour may also have trained ourselves how to enter this state at will or at the very least to create the kinds of conditions when it is more likely to occur.

 

The Wu in ancient China will have used various methods including dance, drumming or ingestion of certain herbs to put themselves into such a state of being totally in the now, the purpose of which was to communicate with the spirit world and in some cases for divination.

[Rara]

See? You had something to say.

 

....

 

I also think that worrying about whether or not we are going to make a mistake is excessive ego too. We make mistakes. 99.9~ percent of us. (It has been said that there have been perfect people. I've never met one.)

 

 

I had this itch at the back of my head...I knew there was something to say but my mind drew a blank until that moment.

 

I think your point about worrying about the mistakes is interesting. Whether we score that game winning goal or not, it's only really as important as you make it.

 

This is what I keep being told when it comes to getting stressed. Remember, none of it really matters anyway.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Rara

[Everything]

When you live in despair you have to practice wei wu wei in order to prevent yourself from making it worse and doing stupid things.

 

When you live in irrelevance it causes apathy and laziness. Laziness is a side effect. Its not something you need to practice.

 

When you are joyful you have to practice as much action as possible in order to spread your joy.

 

I'm currently living in irrelevance. And it causes allot of apathy and laziness.

 

If you wanna experience irrelevance. Read my irrelevant story here bellow. You will experience first hand that there is no point to life and it will cause allot of apathy and laziness in order to cope with the lack of value. I am literally sharing with you if you choose to read it the presence of a lack of value. It is paradoxical in word but that's what it is. Like a dark inky darkness that presents the lack of value and it will manifest in your awareness if you read this story below. So beware I warned you. Better to not read it. And denie that a lack of value exists. Ignorance is bliss. So anyway. If you do wanna read irrelevance. Here it goes:

 

So I walk around the block at this particular night and see the lights emmiting from the windows in the houses around me. It's a cold dark night but the street lights make it a little less dark and more bright. I walk till dawn and see the sun rise. I am now at the beach. Now that the sun is rising and I feel sleepy from having stayed up all night. I look at a bench and lie down on it and fall asleep. When I wake up there are lots of people around. I have no real choices that I want to take. No real known paths I wanna walk. I look at the sky and it is bright now, especially now that I have just woken up. My eyes still need to get used to the bright broad day light. There is pink gum stuck to my pants. I try to take it off. It's very sticky and stretchy. I take most of it off, but remains are still stuck to my pants. I sigh. Looking at the ants on the ground now. I want to sigh, but the sigh turns out to be a yawn. An annoying old crazy woman looking like a bum comes talking to me. Gibberish and mumbo jumbo. I try to avoid her and walk to the beach sand. I now walk all the way to where the waves are and sit there. Thinking about what I wanna do. Flip some shells. I place my elbow on my knee and my hand under my cheeks. Looking at all the people around me who probably all of them have nothing really significant to say.

There is a girl excitedly coming up to me and laughing excitedly and holding a ball above her head. She looks at me. She looks happy. But I don't know what happiness is. So I look away. And she turns around to look at her group of family walking behind her and hops further along side the waves on the sand. I think about a God person, and see his face angrily looking down upon me in my mind. With a beard and everything. He picks his nose and eats the smuck. He smiles as it tastes good. Nice and salty, like the sea... The image fades away. The clouds glide along in the sky. Time passes. It is now a little bit grey. The clouds have come to join me in this moment in time. Small rain drops are falling beside me on the sand and upon my face as I face up towards the heavens. Time to stand up, but instead I lie down on the sand on my back and let the rain pour over me. Crabs are crawling beside me. They are approaching me and crawling their way under my jacket. They must prefer company. Or perhaps they think I am a rock or something. All that I can think of is that rocks keep me company aswell. All kinds of stones. The road. The walls. Mountains. They're everywhere. I stand up and leave the crabs hanging. One is crawling on top of another. Time passes by. The sun moves above the clouds. I'm still standing there looking at the crabs. One crab is left. I wonder if its sick. Probably not. I lie back down on the ground and keep the crab company. Looking at the heavens. Clouds pass by. Night comes and passes by. Day comes and passes by. Night comes and passes by. Day comes. People have come up to me to ask if I'm alright. I say "No. I feel dead." Eventually they realize that they can't help me or don't want to. In my mind they don't need to. I'm going to die anyway. Just avoiding pain as much as I can while I still can. So I stand up and go home and lie in my bed. There is a striped pillow next to my head. A small man comes from under the pillow and greets me happily. "HELLO. HOWDY." I say nothing and stare at him with a blank face. The man crawls back under the pillow. Now comes back from under the pillow and brings along a small girl. They both look at me hand in hand and I look at them. I blink. They blink. Now a third person a boy comes from under the pillow and holds the hand of the girl as the girl holds the hand of the man. I can't take this sh!t anymore. I stand up and go outside for a cigarette. And come back inside and go to sleep.

 

Next day I wake up and there is a blue ooze hanging on my roof. A drop of the blue ooze falls on the ground and forms a sphere. Inside the sphere there is a gnome. The gnome tries to get out and nocks on the edge of the sphere. "Hey, someone get me out of here." On the edges of my room on either side of the walls comes a spike of red ooze penetrating the sphere of blue ooze drop with the gnome in it. The gnome screams and dies. I scratch my head and look confusedly. I stand up from my bed and try to avoid the whole mess as I walk beside it. I kneel and kiss the ground. Stand up and summon a stairway. I walk up the stairway and upstairs I enter a field of grass and mountains. The sun is shining in the clear light blue sky. An elemental spirit comes up to me. He zaps my head with electricity and my head grows larger untill my head explodes. The elemental spirit floats back to its position and stays there. Birds and insects are eating from my exploded head on the ground. My body is dead. And on the ground aswell. A giant bird comes and picks up my body. He flies it to the mountain where smaller birds await dinner. So they feast on my body, fighting over who gets the most.

 

Oh and if you read it can you please denie or confirm that this is the most boring story in the whole world? Causing lots of apathy, boredom, carelessness, irrelevance and as a result LOTS of laziness because of the lack of motivation to participate in the irrelevance.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Everything

[9th]

TLDR

 

The Egyptians used to say 

 

"Irrelevance is expected"

[Marblehead]

 Remember, none of it really matters anyway.

So true.  When the game is over we all are going to freakin' die.  We just do the best we can while we are here.

[Marblehead]

Oh and if you read it can you please denie or confirm that this is the most boring story in the whole world? Causing lots of apathy, boredom, carelessness, irrelevance and as a result LOTS of laziness because of the lack of motivation to participate in the irrelevance.

I'm not apathetic.  I give a shit.  Yes, I know, nothing really matters but while I'm here some things will matter.

 

Boredom?  I have too many things to do to get bored.  But I sometimes get tired and go somewhere and vegetate.

 

I try to be careful.  Carelessness invites accidents.  And accidents almost always hurt.

[Stosh]

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Everything]

 

I enjoyed your story, and Vote 'not Boring'

lol ok that was not expected. I guess there is value everywhere. No need to be lazy then. Edited January 1, 2016 by Everything

[Everything]

I'm not apathetic. I give a shit. Yes, I know, nothing really matters but while I'm here some things will matter.

 

Boredom? I have too many things to do to get bored. But I sometimes get tired and go somewhere and vegetate.

 

I try to be careful. Carelessness invites accidents. And accidents almost always hurt.

Good man. I'm glad you're not bored. That means you just have to be yourself in order to examplify the lack of boredom. Which is a good thing. Thanks for sharing that. And you're not lazy at all either then. Edited January 1, 2016 by Everything

[Everything]

TLDR

 

The Egyptians used to say

The good thing about my irrelevant story is that it comes to an end. Good thing you didn't read it. Sometimes laziness prevents us from participating in irrelevant things. Which is good. I guess.

[9th]

Here's another word for you: "predictable"

[NotVoid]

All joking aside, in regards to terms like wu wei, from what I can gather the ancient Chinese employed various terms and concepts which seem to have been used very poetically or symbolically, and which may also have been used differently in different contexts and by different people and groups, and which may well have also evolved or expanded in usage over time as well.  It seems to me that Westerners and modern people in general often try to impose current Western or modern views and thinking onto such terms and concepts, and therefore try to force exact concrete definitions and very literal meanings onto such terms, which seems to me to be almost a guaranteed recipe for getting off track almost immediately. Just my own point of view on the matter, of course.

[doc benway]

If everyone in world history had adhered to wu wei, what would actually get accomplished?

 

That's a common misunderstanding of wu wei.

For me, wu wei means to recognize that the one who thinks he/she is making decisions is an illusion and to allow life to unfold without interfering. 

[Stosh]

nah

Edited January 2, 2016 by Stosh