Sun Tzu - The Art of War, Chapter 4

[devoid]

Based on the encouragement from many of you we'll continue the Sun Tzu discussions here in this sub-forum. Again, feel free to post alternative translations, thoughts, ideas, comments, questions, etc. I have requested that the previous discussions on chapters one through three are also moved here from the general discussion forum. Here's chapter 4:

 

IV. Tactical Dispositions

1. Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.
   
2. To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
   
3. Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy.
   
4. Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it.
   
5. Security against defeat implies defensive tactics; ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive.
   
6. Standing on the defensive indicates insufficient strength; attacking, a superabundance of strength.
   
7. The general who is skilled in defense hides in the most secret recesses of the earth; he who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven. Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect ourselves; on the other, a victory that is complete.
   
8. To see victory only when it is within the ken of the common herd is not the acme of excellence.
   
9. Neither is it the acme of excellence if you fight and conquer and the whole Empire says, "Well done!"
   
10. To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.
    
11. What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.
    
12. Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage.
    
13. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.
    
14. Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.
    
15. Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.
    
16. The consummate leader cultivates the moral law, and strictly adheres to method and discipline; thus it is in his power to control success.
    
17. In respect of military method, we have, firstly, Measurement; secondly, Estimation of quantity; thirdly, Calculation; fourthly, Balancing of chances; fifthly, Victory.
    
18. Measurement owes its existence to Earth; Estimation of quantity to Measurement; Calculation to Estimation of quantity; Balancing of chances to Calculation; and Victory to Balancing of chances.
    
19. A victorious army opposed to a routed one, is as a pound's weight placed in the scale against a single grain.
    
20. The onrush of a conquering force is like the bursting of pent-up waters into a chasm a thousand fathoms deep.
    

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I think that having a good defense is very important because regardless of other on-going action we do not want to lose what we already have.

 

Ahd I also agree that only remaining on the defensive leaves us at the mercy of the enemy. We must constantly react to their actions. We expend more energy and resources than does the enemy and eventually we will be worn down.

 

Just defending the territory (or one's own person) will eventually lead to destruction because a strong enemy will seek out our weaknesses and attack those.

 

So not only must we defend from attack but we must also attack and either force the enemy from our midst or destroy the enemy.

 

Of course, if we are the aggressor this would not apply as strongly as it does when we are the defender.

[manitou]

I like this very much. First secure yourself, then wait for the enemy to be in the right position. It takes much self discipline to wait. I think thoughts like this make it attractive to many businessmen who are serious about winning as well.

 

It is my understanding that our current leadership is very familiar with this tome. I see our administration waiting things out, long after people are hollering about his dithering. When all pieces were in place, e.g. the United Nations resolutions, the action was swift and deadly and on target. The best part of all of this is that we won't get stuck with the price tag like we always do. It'll be a shared expense.

[devoid]

Hi Marblehead, Manitou,

 

Nice posts and interesting observations: Thanks

 

Again, I will soon argue that this goes beyond war and fighting, but I'll give it a few more days in the hope that we'll get some more response to this thread, first.

[Havik]

Can someone please send a copy of the Art of War to Baby SOB Bush Jr, Prez Obama and American military leadership.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Havik

[Marblehead]

Can someone please send a copy of the Art of War to Baby SOB Bush Jr, Prez Obama and American military leadership.

 

I tried that and they all fell asleep before finishing the first chapter.

[devoid]

I would like to come back to my pet theme that The Art of War can be read as the art of dealing with challenges:

 

It is interesting how the perspective shifts a bit in this chapter: Focus is shifted from the general and his army (as separate entities) to the fighter and fighting (as a unit): Whilst in the middle of the chaos of dealing with a dynamically changing and complex issue, there is not much time for pondering on strategy. A nice example of the challenger acting as a unit can be found in verse 2: "To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands" - yet there is no wishful thinking that the unit is not made up of components in 3: "Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy."

 

Apart from that, this chapter reaffirms the requirement of the previous chapters, i.e. that a salient view must taken. In other words, in tackling challenges one must take into consideration as many relevant factors as possible, weighing them and then using them as tools for attaining victory. This is summarized in 17: "In respect of military method, we have, firstly, Measurement; secondly, Estimation of quantity; thirdly, Calculation; fourthly, Balancing of chances; fifthly, Victory. ". This is universal in tackling complex problems:

• Measurement (Assesment of the situation)
  
• Estimation of quantity (How to respond and how much)
  
• Calculation (To which degree and where to focus)
  
• Balancing of chances (Double-checking before betting the family farm)
  
• Victory (Voila! )
  

[Marblehead]

In other words, in tackling challenges one must take into consideration as many relevant factors as possible, weighing them and then using them as tools for attaining victory.

 

Yes. This is true for any aspect of our life when faced with challehges. When time allows, we should consider as many of the variables as we have access to and consider all our possible choices for action or non-action. When time does not allow for this all we can do is hope that our past understandings will lead us to the best choice.

[devoid]

Yes. This is true for any aspect of our life when faced with challehges. When time allows, we should consider as many of the variables as we have access to and consider all our possible choices for action or non-action. When time does not allow for this all we can do is hope that our past understandings will lead us to the best choice.

 

Absolutely, Marblehead - wait too long with something (no matter how great and awesome it may seem) there will come a time when it is simply too late.

[Guan-Wen]

Isn't it the case that the whole general theme of the AoW is to always delay action until the most opportune moment. Now sometimes there will be an obvious strategic factor or moment, perhaps as prosaic as the weather or the movement of a particular squadron or sapper unit. But it also relates to factors of consciousness and spirit and surely the concept of Wu-wei is pre-eminent. And from Wu-wei swirls the rest of the Tao and the TTC and Ic, etc.

 

Sifu Bruce Lee was at times the embodiment of these principles. His admonition to :"Study widely. Absorb what is useful. Discard what is uselsess. Add what is intrinsically yor own.", is sound strategic advice. Through constant and rigourous dedication to self-knowledege and challenge of that self, Bruce Lee was always on steady and high ground, strategically speaking. When he takes that ready stance, you know that the opponent has already been outmanoueverewd!

 

In military action, as in business and as in all our relations, we are challenged to repond appropriately but also in such a way that we are not strategically undermined. But the ultimate goal would be to not only avoid use of force but also to develop a win-win sitution for bothor all parties. If force is required, then the shortest route to victory (foot-strike to knee or finger jab to eye) with the leastexpenditure of power for the maximum gain. But of course sometimes decisive actio might be exactly the opposite of force. Perhaps to bend or sway aside. Sometimes to not engage at all is the most powerful course of non-action. Watch the Wing Chung or tai Chi Master deflect force with the slightest of motions while remaining fluid and unhampered from flowing in the Watercourse way.

 

I think it is important that we do not get tunnel vision in these fora - to lose sight of the ground-truthing of these concepts in our daily lives. Think of the times when you felt so powerful for havinf deflected force or defused a potentially violent situation. Equally think of how we are secure precisely because we are rooted in the Tao and we dance throyugh every encounter because we know that we cannot be defeated by any adversary.

[Marblehead]

Isn't it the case ...

 

Nice addition to the discussion. And yes, I agree with what you have said. So many factors to be considered when we make major decisions in life.

[manitou]

Guan-Wen - how elegant your reply was. I loved the fact that you brought the concept of Wu-Wei into the general's actions - it's all in the timing. Having yourself impeccably in position with a plan and waiting for the enemy to make the mistake, ensnaring him. A spider on a web.

 

I so love the mindset of the general who rues the day he has to go to war; and I love the mindset of the general who is saddened by the victory. Both know that all is One.