Major component of evolution theory proven wrong

[joeblast]

Good. I had a little recall. Can't recall mention of the particle/antiparticle aspect though. Maybe that is the part I have been missing. Perhaps it is also the root of my understanding of objects colliding.

 

I'll try to be more attentive the next time a black hole program runs on TV. Hehehe.

that's actually a pretty key part, as it "quantizes the evaporation"...but then again perhaps the show was geared a little more non technically!

[Encephalon]

Posted Today, 11:54 AM

Gauss, on 30 March 2011 - 03:15 AM, said:

 

All animals and plants etc exist for human beings.

 

 

Comments like these leave me completely speechless, and that doesn't happen very often. I guess I'm still caught in the tractor beam of my intellectual heroes.

 

"it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."

The Ethics of Belief (1877)

William K. Clifford

 

I'd laugh if a 5 yr old said this. That a grown man would submit this idea as a statement of fact in a forum ostensibly populated by people who are trying to tune into ecology and the cosmos and the Tao leaves me wondering what my measured response should be. But since all ideas are equal in weight I guess I'm obliged to accept his trenchant observation.

[Immortal4life]

There would be no real spirituality if evolution were true. You see, it means that believing in spirituality is just some evolved mechanism that human instinct created to feel good. Love is simply Altruism now, an evolved chemical reaction in people because helping others would have strengthened your tribe, and having a strong bond with a mate will insure survival of off-spring.

 

If evolution were true then spirituality is simply an evolved mechanism and Love is just chemicals in your brain making you feel that way. Spirituality is simply a survival instinct now, which had some sort of survival benefit to the tribe.

 

If evolution were true, there would be no such thing as spirituality, because there is then no universal morality, there is no meaning to anything, the whole world is random chance and one big accident, there is no such thing as synchronicity. The fact is if you believe in Evolution you don't believe there is a purpose or intelligent meaning behind anything in nature or the formation of the universe. You cannot believe that events or circumstances have a meaning, or synchronistic purpose.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Encephalon]

There would be no real spirituality if evolution were true. You see, it means that believing in spirituality is just some evolved mechanism that human instinct created to feel good. Love is simply Altruism now, an evolved chemical reaction in people because helping others would have strengthened your tribe, and having a strong bond with a mate will insure survival of off-spring.

 

If evolution were true then spirituality is simply an evolved mechanism and Love is just chemicals in your brain making you feel that way. Spirituality is simply a survival instinct now, which had some sort of survival benefit to the tribe.

 

If evolution were true, there would be no such thing as spirituality, because there is then no universal morality, there is no meaning to anything, the whole world is random chance and one big accident, there is no such things as synchronicity. The fact is if you believe in Evolution you don't believe there is a purpose or intelligent meaning behind anything in nature or the formation of the universe. You cannot believe that events or circumstances have a meaning, or synchronistic purpose.

 

You would've spared this board a lot of haggling and heartache if you had simply declared your allegience to these ideas from the beginning, rather than disguising your beliefs beneath the facade of 'scientific inquiry.' When people on this board demand an explanation from me about why I get so emotional and abrasive, it's because I have nothing but contempt for your disengenuous posturing and intellectual dishonesty. But, people have insisted that treating you with courtesy is the prime directive, so I guess i just have one question: Since your points are so dramatically antithetical to Taoism, what real reason did you have for coming in here besides proselytizing?

[Immortal4life]

I plan on discussing many things here, including a wide range of different topics. Some specific and some general.

 

I disagree tht my ideas are antithetical to Taoism.

[Jetsun]

There would be no real spirituality if evolution were true. You see, it means that believing in spirituality is just some evolved mechanism that human instinct created to feel good. Love is simply Altruism now, an evolved chemical reaction in people because helping others would have strengthened your tribe, and having a strong bond with a mate will insure survival of off-spring.

 

If evolution were true then spirituality is simply an evolved mechanism and Love is just chemicals in your brain making you feel that way. Spirituality is simply a survival instinct now, which had some sort of survival benefit to the tribe.

 

If evolution were true, there would be no such thing as spirituality, because there is then no universal morality, there is no meaning to anything, the whole world is random chance and one big accident, there is no such thing as synchronicity. The fact is if you believe in Evolution you don't believe there is a purpose or intelligent meaning behind anything in nature or the formation of the universe. You cannot believe that events or circumstances have a meaning, or synchronistic purpose.

 

Evolution describes the process, it doesn't have the answers why survival is important and where evolution is going and whether us as humans have a role in this process. I see no conflict at all between evolution and spirituality and I would have to adjust my spiritual beliefs if I did because evolution is a fact.

[Marblehead]

... but then again perhaps the show was geared a little more non technically!

 

That is very likely. It was a presentation for a general audience, afterall.

[aridus]

"it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."

The Ethics of Belief (1877)

William K. Clifford

Where is his evidence?

 

That's a joke. Sorry.

 

"Wrong" and "always" and "everywhere" and "anyone". Very powerful words. Words that some times get loose and bite us in the rear.

[Encephalon]

Evolution describes the process, it doesn't have the answers why survival is important and where evolution is going and whether us as humans have a role in this process. I see no conflict at all between evolution and spirituality and I would have to adjust my spiritual beliefs if I did because evolution is a fact.

 

Even more than that, I4L is describing a state of mind that can accept neither the inherent ambiguity of the universe or the limits of human imagination. For people like him who cannot find a sense of meaning or wonder just by virtue of being alive, the only tolerable option becomes the practice of anthropomorphism and the absolute annhilation of ambiguity, This impulse is the same now as it was 10,000 years ago; fear of the unknown. The remedy? Religious fairy tales.

[ralis]

There would be no real spirituality if evolution were true. You see, it means that believing in spirituality is just some evolved mechanism that human instinct created to feel good. Love is simply Altruism now, an evolved chemical reaction in people because helping others would have strengthened your tribe, and having a strong bond with a mate will insure survival of off-spring.

 

If evolution were true then spirituality is simply an evolved mechanism and Love is just chemicals in your brain making you feel that way. Spirituality is simply a survival instinct now, which had some sort of survival benefit to the tribe.

 

If evolution were true, there would be no such thing as spirituality, because there is then no universal morality, there is no meaning to anything, the whole world is random chance and one big accident, there is no such thing as synchronicity. The fact is if you believe in Evolution you don't believe there is a purpose or intelligent meaning behind anything in nature or the formation of the universe. You cannot believe that events or circumstances have a meaning, or synchronistic purpose.

 

 

Your logic confounds me! Why would evolution and spirituality be mutually exclusive? Instead of arguing in such rigid terms, inquire as to what the real nature of the universe is.

 

Do you spend anytime in nature or even let your mind entertain the infinite possibilities of existence?

Edited March 30, 2011 by ralis

[Marblehead]

There would be no real spirituality if evolution were true. You see, it means that believing in spirituality is just some evolved mechanism that human instinct created to feel good. Love is simply Altruism now, an evolved chemical reaction in people because helping others would have strengthened your tribe, and having a strong bond with a mate will insure survival of off-spring.

 

If evolution were true then spirituality is simply an evolved mechanism and Love is just chemicals in your brain making you feel that way. Spirituality is simply a survival instinct now, which had some sort of survival benefit to the tribe.

 

If evolution were true, there would be no such thing as spirituality, because there is then no universal morality, there is no meaning to anything, the whole world is random chance and one big accident, there is no such thing as synchronicity. The fact is if you believe in Evolution you don't believe there is a purpose or intelligent meaning behind anything in nature or the formation of the universe. You cannot believe that events or circumstances have a meaning, or synchronistic purpose.

 

You lost it all with that post. You have shown your ignorance and you have shown that you are here only to force your beliefs on others.

 

You truely should be ashamed of yourself. I doubt that you have ever even had a spiritual moment in your life. All you want to do is force your beliefs on others.

 

You really don't belong here. You should join some Fundamentalist Christian board that welcomes likeminded people. You have no place in a free-thinking forum.

 

 

But still, I wish you well.

[Encephalon]

Where is his evidence?

 

That's a joke. Sorry.

 

"Wrong" and "always" and "everywhere" and "anyone". Very powerful words. Words that some times get loose and bite us in the rear.

 

Granted, the wording is strong, but unless you can come up with examples where believing things for insufficient reasons yielded an advantage of some kind, the jokes on you!

 

This isn't about proof. It was his conclusion about avoiding the ethical pitfalls of believing things without evidence. You probably know more about him than I do though, but I;ll post this anyway if you're interested.

 

-http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/w_k_clifford/ethics_of_belief.html

[Marblehead]

I plan on discussing many things here, including a wide range of different topics. Some specific and some general.

 

I disagree tht my ideas are antithetical to Taoism.

 

What you preached in your last post is nothing less than bigotry. Your ideas are those of people who lived 2000 years ago. You are not the center of the universe and neither is Earth and neither is the Christian Church. And it is my suggestion that fundamentalists like yourself are simply lost in space and time, IMO.

 

Too bad you got kicked off that Christian forum and had to resort to coming to some forum where there are a bunch of believers in evolution. Or maybe that was your plan. To cause hatred and confusion.

 

For you to suggest that you know where or not a certain type of person is capable of being spiritual is far beyond acceptable. You are not a god. You are just being a puppet of those who wish to control others.

 

Sad.

[Immortal4life]

Your logic confounds me! Why would evolution and spirituality be mutually exclusive?

 

Simply put, if evolution is true, then nihilistic atheism is correct. It means that when you die, your consciousness is gone, non existant, forever. No life or existence after death.

 

If you don't believe me about the effects of believing in evolution ask these high level evolutionists. Now although this example may be from a chirstian point of view more than other religions, it applies to all forms of spirituality-

Edited March 30, 2011 by Immortal4life

[doc benway]

There would be no real spirituality if evolution were true. You see, it means that believing in spirituality is just some evolved mechanism that human instinct created to feel good. Love is simply Altruism now, an evolved chemical reaction in people because helping others would have strengthened your tribe, and having a strong bond with a mate will insure survival of off-spring.

 

If evolution were true then spirituality is simply an evolved mechanism and Love is just chemicals in your brain making you feel that way. Spirituality is simply a survival instinct now, which had some sort of survival benefit to the tribe.

 

If evolution were true, there would be no such thing as spirituality, because there is then no universal morality, there is no meaning to anything, the whole world is random chance and one big accident, there is no such thing as synchronicity. The fact is if you believe in Evolution you don't believe there is a purpose or intelligent meaning behind anything in nature or the formation of the universe. You cannot believe that events or circumstances have a meaning, or synchronistic purpose.

 

With due respect, this post is poppy-cock.

I would absolutely agree that evolution is nothing more than a reasonably scientifically verifiable description of observations over time. It is very consistent and useful as a theory but it does not mean that we know everything about how human life developed on earth. Heck, we don't even know what makes a gnat tick for goodness sake.

Nevertheless, without the scientific method, electricity and TaoBums would not exist.

 

The theory of evolution does not, in any way, exclude the possible existence of all things spiritual and moral, the two are mutually independent.

Creationists, fundamentalists, and people who like to hide behind the term Intelligent Design, all try to paint scientific investigation of human and natural development as somehow excluding the possibility of the divine or the supernatural.

Not true at al - on the other hand, proof that contradicts portions of evolution theory does NOT prove the existence of the divine or supernatural. Disproving or challenging one theory does nothing to support or prove a completely unrelated, gratuitous assertion like ID. Another little sleight of hand you guys like to use.

 

Human intelligence is de facto proof of the existence of intelligence in nature.

Meaning only exists as a consequence of the mind's desire for an explanation.

It does not exist outside of human thought.

 

Why is it so important to prove things like a designer, universal morality, intelligent meaning and purpose?

The reason is that you have yet to realize that you are already all of that.

You are simply the eyes through which everything is aware of itself (insert any spiritual, religious, or Intelligent Design buzz-words you like for the "everything").

 

Relax, don't worry about ID and evolution and all of those words and ideas and crap and just enjoy the few years that you've chosen to incarnate yourself here on earth as you. Soon, you'll open your eyes as a different you and it'll start all over again!

[Immortal4life]

What you preached in your last post is nothing less than bigotry. Your ideas are those of people who lived 2000 years ago. You are not the center of the universe and neither is Earth and neither is the Christian Church. And it is my suggestion that fundamentalists like yourself

 

Too bad you got kicked off that Christian forum and had to resort to coming to some forum where there are a bunch of believers in evolution. Or maybe that was your plan. To cause hatred and confusion.

 

For you to suggest that you know where or not a certain type of person is capable of being spiritual is far beyond acceptable. You are not a god. You are just being a puppet of those who wish to control others.

 

Sad.

 

 

 

[aridus]

Granted, the wording is strong, but unless you can come up with examples where believing things for insufficient reasons yielded an advantage of some kind, the jokes on you!

 

This isn't about proof. It was his conclusion about avoiding the ethical pitfalls of believing things without evidence. You probably know more about him than I do though, but I;ll post this anyway if you're interested.

 

-http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/w_k_clifford/ethics_of_belief.html

I understand. I was being a little facetious.

I don't know of an advantage to believing things without evidence off the top of my head. But I can think of plenty of cases where doing without evidence could be an advantage.

 

We do without evidence every day. All the things that you don't know that aren't effecting you. Things that are present because they aren't there - lack of worry, lack of fear, lack of confidence, lack of considering the infinite because if you begin to consider the infinite, you can never finish.

[gendao]

People who post arguments that veer so far out of the scope of accepted scientific consensus, such as religious arguments against evolution, bare most of the burden for this "abrasive atmosphere" as you call it, especially when they presume to know more than they actually do. The burden of proof falls on those who make the claims. If people aren't up to the task, it is almost always a sign that they aren't in command of their material. There's no excuse for this, no matter how "nice" they are.

Lol, a few pts:

 

1) You do realize that this same "accepted scientific consensus" that you believe discounts any type of "ID" - also similarly scoffs at all of this Taoist qi-microcosmic orbit-neidan-xian-yadda-yadda as a bunch of superstitious hogwash too???

 

2) I don't really have a problem with you being "abrasive." But you just can't complain about others being "abrasive" while being "abrasive" yourself...

 

3) I essentially agree with Creation's excellent deconstruction of the false conflict here. IMO - the real questions still remain scientifically unanswered: How did life first originate from "non-life" and is evolution a totally random process - or is there some non-random intelligence/consciousness/intent/awareness involved?

 

4) My other observation is how Baby Boomers seem utterly incapable of viewing reality today outside of their old B&W paradigms. Because he entertains ID, Immortal4life is immediately branded a "Christian Fundy" here. Nevermind the fact that he is posting Falun Dafa links on a Taoist forum. Acts that would get him banned as a Satanic troll on any Christian forum, lol.

 

So, here's how a typical 1-way conversation like this often goes:

 

Baby Boomer: You're not White?

Gen-E: No.

Baby Boomer: So, you're Black?

Gen-E: Well, I'm Green.

Baby Boomer: Oh, you mean you're Black?

Gen-E: No. Green.

Baby Boomer: Right - Black.

Gen-E:

Edited March 30, 2011 by vortex

[Marblehead]

 

 

 

Just remember, it was the Christians who were the KKK people. And the Christian Fundamentalists and Intelligent Designers are following in their footsteps. It is the same thing, just a different name.

[Encephalon]

Lol, a few pts:

 

1) You do realize that this same "accepted scientific consensus" that you believe discounts any type of "ID" - also similarly scoffs at all of this Taoist qi-microcosmic orbit-neidan-xian-yadda-yadda as a bunch of superstitious hogwash too???

 

Yes, I do.

 

2) I don't really have a problem with you being "abrasive." But you just can't complain about others being "abrasive" while being "abrasive" yourself...

 

 

I'm not complaining about anyone being abrasive. Stupid and duplicitous, yes.

 

 

3) I essentially agree with Creation's excellent deconstruction of the false conflict here. IMO - the real questions still remain scientifically unanswered: How did life first originate from "non-life" and is evolution a totally random process - or is there some non-random intelligence/consciousness/intent/awareness involved?

 

It doesn't matter. It could very well remain beyond the realm of human understanding.

4) My other observation is how Baby Boomers seem utterly incapable of viewing reality today outside of their old B&W paradigms. Because he entertains ID, Immortal4life is immediately branded a "Christian Fundy" here. Nevermind the fact that he is posting Falun Dafa links on a Taoist forum. Acts that would get him banned as a Satanic troll on any Christian forum, lol.

 

I'm really getting tired of the use of generalizations. I imagine that I must have been 10 or so when I was first counseled against their use, but they seem especially vulgar now, 40 years later, in reference to my own age group. There are a lot of 50 year-olds that I have nothing in common with. Do you think this generation is the only one guilty of prejudice or bias? What the hell has gotten into you?

 

 

So, here's how a typical 1-way conversation like this often goes:

 

Baby Boomer: You're not White?

Gen-E: No.

Baby Boomer: So, you're Black?

Gen-E: Well, I'm Green.

Baby Boomer: Oh, you mean you're Black?

Gen-E: No. Green.

Baby Boomer: Right - Black.

Gen-E:

 

whatever...

[Trunk]

Major component of evolution theory proven wrong

...

So do you still believe your great great grandfather x 100000000 was a bacteria flagellum?

True or not, seems to me that misses the point of the crux of the theory of evolution. That is:

1. Traits get passed on from parents to child, including moderate variations

2. Those that receive disadvantageous traits vis-a-vis survival get killed off

3. The traits that favor survival vis-a-vis the environment live

 

Given 1, 2, 3, species change over time in relationship to their environment.

 

The above is rather air tight and simple, imo.

 

Now, exactly what was the chain of change for various species, that's details.

 

Even if we were started by God or aliens in a single day, *poof!*, and then kicked out into the wild ... well, you'd still have evolution from that point. As long as people are having sex, living and dieing, there is evolution.

 

[torus693]

.

Edited March 30, 2011 by torus693

[Marblehead]

.

 

Very well spoken.

[ralis]

Very well spoken.

 

Profound!

[torus693]

.

Edited April 9, 2011 by torus693