Bad experiences with chi kung

[Audiohealing]

Hey guys,

 

I sent sifu Terry a PM about this but I guess he's away and hasn't got a chance to reply yet.

 

I have been doing the FP chi kung meditations (volume 1 & 2) for an hour or two a day for the last 3 weeks and I'm encountering 2 major issues:

 

1. I cannot feel any "chi" or "energy" flow whatsoever. It looks to an outsider watching chi kung movements that all one is doing is doing some slow repetitive gestures, well, that is what I experience. I get very frustrated at the end of the session because I don't notice anything tangible.

 

2. This happens every other session, after I have finished, I become extremely irritable and agitated which is quite unpleasant, I think this mostly stems from the frustration caused by point #1.

 

Any ideas about this?

[NeiChuan]

Hey guys,

 

I sent sifu Terry a PM about this but I guess he's away and hasn't got a chance to reply yet.

 

I have been doing the FP chi kung meditations (volume 1 & 2) for an hour or two a day for the last 3 weeks and I'm encountering 2 major issues:

 

1. I cannot feel any "chi" or "energy" flow whatsoever. It looks to an outsider watching chi kung movements that all one is doing is doing some slow repetitive gestures, well, that is what I experience. I get very frustrated at the end of the session because I don't notice anything tangible.

 

2. This happens every other session, after I have finished, I become extremely irritable and agitated which is quite unpleasant, I think this mostly stems from the frustration caused by point #1.

 

Any ideas about this?

 

Maybe you're supposed to be doing it on the ground outside rather then inside. If your frustration has to do with not feeling the energy..

 

That can take time, it can take more then a year even to really feel energy without it just coming and going.The first step is your well being, keep that in mind. If mentally/physically you don't feel any better after 2 - 4 months, then you did before you started, I wouldn't continue. I would try something else.

[RiverSnake]

I think in general it is important to empty oneself of expectations, otherwise we have tendency to squeeze our own lemons.

[Guest sykkelpump]

qi gong movements doesnt generate much energy or chi.it mostly help circulate the energy you have.thats why i say meditation will supercharge your qi gong.if you train alone i think this is the best meditation if you are interested http://www.aypsite.org/13.html

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well I dunno much about Flying Phoenix specifically, or what it's supposed to do, but more generally-

 

Getting rid of expectations is a big one. Because if you set yourself up for something, and it doesn't happen, even if something DOES happen, you'll miss it and be so fixated on what "should" have happened. That whole mental setting also prevents you from recognizing new things as they happen, because instead they get suppressed by your oppressive mental atmosphere.

 

If you are doing slow, repetitive arm gestures, well, for a moment, forget about the qi. Make it physical. Relax into it, and let the movements gently get your body into movement. Get the blood flowing. Breathe. If you're outside, try to enjoy the atmosphere. Even if you're inside, enjoy breathing. Really try to feel the breath. Feel your body, feel how it moves and changes. Relax into it, physically and mentally.

 

The irritability and agitation could very well come from where you think it comes from. Hopefully, if you can change your mental outlook, it'll help you get into the practice, and make you feel like you got something out of it.

 

Also, I dunno if this is a flying phoenix thing, but maybe pull back the level of practice. I don't know how long everything is supposed to take. But rather than doing everything all at once in one big go, do one thing once. 15-20 minutes, maybe an hour. I dunno how much experience you have prior. But there is a law of diminishing returns with these things. You reach a point where you are getting optimal benefit from something, but going any further than that puts a strain on the system, and can actually be counterproductive.

 

2-3 hours of qigong or meditation can do wonders, but only if you've trained and practiced enough to be able to get the most out of it. If your mind and body aren't prepared for a 2-3 hour run, then you're just gonna frazzle your system, and any gain you get from it in the first 15-20 minutes is going to be crushed by your persistent practice.

 

It's a marathon, not a sprint. A slow and steady pace guarantees you a finish. Trying to sprint right out of the gate doesn't guarantee you anything, especially if you aren't a seasoned runner.

[johndoe2012]

Regarding no 1, I think it is a matter of how open your body/meridians is/are.

 

So if you don't feel anything and this is your first time doing qigong then I would say it is pretty normal.

 

The FP thread can seem to a bit of touch with reality because results are emphasized and this can cause frustration for those that aren't getting any.

 

Personally I did one year of standing - just following The Way of Energy - before starting FP. I think standing is very good at opening your body and FP less good in that area. Terry Dunn also says

 

Good level in Kung-Fu and/or another Qigong complete system facilitates proper FP Qigong practice in order to derive maximum benefit.

 

this very much aligns with my own experience.

 

I have not had the experience of "thick" qi as Fu_dog had but then he has 6-8 years of experience in qigong, myself about 2 years. Pablo who got really good results had 3 years of Zhan Zhuang, Tai Chi and another qigong under the belt.

 

After I started doing Yi Gong I also experienced the qi better in FP.

 

So maybe start with 30 min of standing (power standing from this link http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/jiucom.htm - also known as Wuji standing) and then proceed to FP or maybe a whole year where you follow Way of Energy for an hour a day.

 

Regarding no 2: I also had a period where anger and frustration came to the surface, when I was doing a lot of FP so maybe it is something that is vented because of the practise and so is not bad in itself?

 

What Sloppy says is also good advice.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[JohnC]

I too had anger and things come up. I became very very sensitive, to everything. I think this speaks to the power of this qigong.

 

I also think that this is part of the healing process, that you are releasing stored tension with different parts of the body.

 

Sadly... I think you have to just ride it.

 

I'm careful when I practice because of this haha.

 

John

[aridus]

I think in general it is important to empty oneself of expectations, otherwise we have tendency to squeeze our own lemons.

This (along with similar things that are said after)

 

 

I think 'trying' is the problem. Flow. Breathe. Effortless doing.

 

Or, if you need a more practical sense, you may be using too much muscle because of anxiety and 'want'. Or you may be trying to copy and therefore you fail. Not everyone can start out at the same speed.

 

Maybe slow down. Just a suggestion. Find a particular movement, and do it slowly. It could be something very small, even just a hand gesture. Do this movement, breathe, let it flow.

 

When you begin to understand this, when you empty yourself so you can be filled again, then maybe you can start following the instructor.

[RiverSnake]

This (along with similar things that are said after)

 

 

I think 'trying' is the problem. Flow. Breathe. Effortless doing.

 

Or, if you need a more practical sense, you may be using too much muscle because of anxiety and 'want'. Or you may be trying to copy and therefore you fail. Not everyone can start out at the same speed.

 

Maybe slow down. Just a suggestion. Find a particular movement, and do it slowly. It could be something very small, even just a hand gesture. Do this movement, breathe, let it flow.

 

When you begin to understand this, when you empty yourself so you can be filled again, then maybe you can start following the instructor.

 

Indeed, "doing nothing" is one of the most productive things you can possibly do.

[Otis]

Hi Audiohealing. You've received lots of good advice on this thread. A couple other things to consider:

 

Regarding #1. Perhaps you should not worry about the thing that you are supposed to feel, but rather just concentrate on what you can feel. The latter is what's important; the former is just a fantasy.

 

A metaphor for Qi that might be useful to you: forget the idea that Qi is something esoteric or "special", and think instead of it as merely the energetic version of your own body. Like in quantum physics, things exist as both particle (physical body) and wave (Qi), all depending on your perspective.

 

Your body looks solid, but it acts as a flow, from respiration, digestion, mood, sleep, circulation, etc.. Everything works in cycles, in waves. So see Qi as merely the flow processes of the body, rather than something beyond the mundane.

 

When you are practicing, merely pay attention to what your body tells you. That's it. Don't try to listen for something extra. That'll just keep you from feeling what's there.

 

In time, those sensations reveal themselves to be something a lot deeper than just feedback loops. Eventually, the bodymap (i.e. our conceptual understanding of how our bodies fit together) disappears, and all that's left is raw sensation. When you are in the realm of raw sensation, then you and Qi are one and the same, and growth becomes easy. Qi doesn't have to be mysterious or holy; it's what you are already experiencing, right now.

 

As for #2, I wouldn't make too much of it. Perhaps meditate on the irritation? Let yourself feel it fully, without any attempt to change it, or label it as bad. If you see these emotional reactions as bad, then you'll avoid practice with irritation, whereas it needs practice every bit as much as compassion, etc.

 

Best to you.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Otis

[Guest sykkelpump]

it is easy.when you do qi gong movements you help your chi to move in the channels.when it moves you will feel it a little stronger.If you have "nothing" to move,you want feel anything.its that easy.meditation builds chi and increase the chi pressure in the body so the channels open by they selfes.movments can speed up this prosess.but movements alone with very low chi will not give you much progress.Maybe if you do zhan zhuang a LOT you can build some chi.But not like meditation

Edited March 29, 2011 by sykkelpump

[Guest sykkelpump]

Hi Audiohealing. You've received lots of good advice on this thread. A couple other things to consider:

 

Regarding #1. Perhaps you should not worry about the thing that you are supposed to feel, but rather just concentrate on what you can feel. The latter is what's important; the former is just a fantasy.

 

A metaphor for Qi that might be useful to you: forget the idea that Qi is something esoteric or "special", and think instead of it as merely the energetic version of your own body. Like in quantum physics, things exist as both particle (physical body) and wave (Qi), all depending on your perspective.

 

Your body looks solid, but it acts as a flow, from respiration, digestion, mood, sleep, circulation, etc.. Everything works in cycles, in waves. So see Qi as merely the flow processes of the body, rather than something beyond the mundane.

 

When you are practicing, merely pay attention to what your body tells you. That's it. Don't try to listen for something extra. That'll just keep you from feeling what's there.

 

In time, those sensations reveal themselves to be something a lot deeper than just feedback loops. Eventually, the bodymap (i.e. our conceptual understanding of how our bodies fit together) disappears, and all that's left is raw sensation. When you are in the realm of raw sensation, then you and Qi are one and the same, and growth becomes easy. Qi doesn't have to be mysterious or holy; it's what you are already experiencing, right now.

 

As for #2, I wouldn't make too much of it. Perhaps meditate on the irritation? Let yourself feel it fully, without any attempt to change it, or label it as bad. If you see these emotional reactions as bad, then you'll avoid practice with irritation, whereas it needs practice every bit as much as compassion, etc.

 

Best to you.

if you meditae on the irritation,it will make it stronger.bad advice.it is like a natural law.the things you focus on will grow and get stronger.

[Otis]

if you meditae on the irritation,it will make it stronger.bad advice.it is like a natural law.the things you focus on will grow and get stronger.

I have a different experience. All emotions deserve my attention and care.

 

It is the things that I avoid, which have power over me.

[Leif]

if you meditae on the irritation,it will make it stronger.bad advice.it is like a natural law.the things you focus on will grow and get stronger.

it could be but it mostly depends on how you do the meditation, it's up to the meditator, for me it works just fine on making the emotion weaker most of the time

 

also I wouldn't draw a line between qigong and meditation...again it depends on who does the qigong, and sure many do just the qigong moves and not the other parts/layers...but to me meditation is one of the parts of qigong

Edited March 30, 2011 by Leif

[Audiohealing]

Thanks for the replies guys- I didn't expect this much good info!

 

I will take the advice on adding meditation. I have in the past, meditated on and off so I have some experience, but it has almost always been chakra meditations with my crystal singing bowls. On some days I can feel my chakras very strongly...

 

In terms of meditation, what are some very good ones? I know Vipassana is highly recommended but what are some other types? Maybe ones that are good to build chi... (deep pranic breathing?)

 

Also, if I do my chi kung practice in the mountains next to a small lake which is a very high-chi environment, is this more conductive to my practice or does it make no difference?

 

All the best!

[johndoe2012]

I would do "quiet sitting", breathe in, breathe out. Nothing else.

 

Don't force anything, let the breathing be as it is. If it is shallow, it is shallow. If it is deep, it is deep. And so on.

[Guest sykkelpump]

Thanks for the replies guys- I didn't expect this much good info!

 

I will take the advice on adding meditation. I have in the past, meditated on and off so I have some experience, but it has almost always been chakra meditations with my crystal singing bowls. On some days I can feel my chakras very strongly...

 

In terms of meditation, what are some very good ones? I know Vipassana is highly recommended but what are some other types? Maybe ones that are good to build chi... (deep pranic breathing?)

 

Also, if I do my chi kung practice in the mountains next to a small lake which is a very high-chi environment, is this more conductive to my practice or does it make no difference?

 

All the best!

Mantra is very powerfull,mantra meditation is teached in many diffrent ways.This is the best way Imo.vipassana is not good without a teacher or reatreat as many other meditations.mantra Is the meditation that is easiest to learn without a teacher.it is also one of the fastest and most powerfull if done right.here is a good instruction http://www.aypsite.org/13.html

remember to say the mantra easy and effortlessy without using any mental force while saying it silently in your mind.thats most importent,dont use concentration or mental force

[Otis]

if you meditae on the irritation,it will make it stronger.bad advice.it is like a natural law.the things you focus on will grow and get stronger.

Now I wonder if you and I meant something different by "meditation". I certainly didn't mean: to capitulate to one's irritation, to justify or take an active role in increasing it.

 

By meditation, I just mean "watching it without doing anything to change it".

 

Without observing it, how will I know what my irritation is made of, what it really wants, and where my triggers are?

[Fu_dog]

Audiohealing -

 

There is some really excellent advice from the posters on this thread. All have posted good info...I enjoyed reading it.

 

Regarding Flying Phoenix specifically, I will give you my experience.

 

When I first started practicing Flying Phoenix, for some reason it just didn't feel right for me. I actually started and stopped three times during the first year I tried doing it. I was instead practicing some of Wong Kiew Kit's qigong and tai chi in the AM and then Spring Forest Qigong in the PM.

 

I just felt sort of strange after the breathing sequences. It's hard to describe. But I never felt anger or frustration, etc. I just felt that there was *something* to be found/experienced in the Flying Phoenix system that I was missing. And I wanted to find it.

 

So, after that year of on again/off again practice of FP, I made a little change. It was this: When doing the percentage breathing, I really focused on my lower dan tien, especially feeling it fill with qi with each inhale cycle. That was a turning point for me. Also, after that I focused on the six basic seated FP exercises for about 4 months before adding the basic standing. That was my experience, so I am hoping that may be of help to you.

 

That said, given what you have described, I might suggest (and this is only my personal advice) that as you begin your routine that you spend the first 20 or 30 minutes doing seated deep abdominal breathing (i.e., to the lower dan tien). After that, then begin your Flying Phoenix meditations. If you try this abdominal breathing, while doing it clear the mind of thought, only focus on your breath (qi) moving into the dan tien. When a thought or feeling arises, gently clear it. Your only focus is on the qi following the breath into the dan tien. That, to my mind is the most basic of qigong practices, and sometimes it's good to start with the most basic thing.

 

I wish you all the best along your path, and am anxious to see how it goes with your continued practice.

 

Good luck!

 

Fu dog

[Audiohealing]

I started feeling something yesterday with the standing FP! I just emptied my mind. It felt like flowing water in my whole body. I was very pleasantly surprised.

 

I'll try focusing on the Tan TIen... but wouldn't that restrict the energy flow? My understanding is the breath sequence is to distribute the qi to specific areas of the body... maybe Sifu Terry can chime in on this.

[VCraigP]

I started feeling something yesterday with the standing FP! I just emptied my mind. It felt like flowing water in my whole body. I was very pleasantly surprised.

 

I'll try focusing on the Tan TIen... but wouldn't that restrict the energy flow? My understanding is the breath sequence is to distribute the qi to specific areas of the body... maybe Sifu Terry can chime in on this.

For Sifu Terry to chime in might I suggest to ask a question in the FP thread. My impression is he barely has time to respond in that thread and is unlikely to find your query in this one.

 

Recently I heard a teacher say that if you feel any sensation at all "that is a qi sensation". Not sure how useful that is. But perhaps what I mean to say by that is also about releasing expectations. Qi is both mundane and sublime.

 

Emotional stuff coming up is not at all unusual, and I believe a sign that things are happening. When things come up you should stay with the practice until they clear. This is how to release and peel back a layer of the onion. then you get to bring up more buried stuff from deeper layers :-) Often in qigong practice if not emotional stuff, then feeling sick can come up, and again it is important to practice through this in order to clear it out. IF you stop when you hit such a barrier you have wasted your effort.

 

Good luck in your practice.

 

Craig

[johndoe2012]

I'll try focusing on the Tan TIen... but wouldn't that restrict the energy flow?

 

in FP there is no specific thing you should or not do after doing the breath sequence, so focusing on the lower dan tien is fine.

 

My understanding on why one should focus on the lower dan tien in respects to emptying mind in Taoist cultivation was recently improved. By focusing there from an awareness point of view the thoughts become more distant and they can be seen as not so important as they seem when looked at from the position of the mind. You can then more easily see your attachments, see the small self as it is rather than identify with the small self and think that that is the only thing you are.

 

Good luck with FP.

[Fu_dog]

+1 with WTM.

 

After the initial breathing sequence, you may forget about breath altogether.