doc benway Posted August 23, 2011 Welcome to Tai Ji or Tai Ji Quan. Please try not to give it a new name like "Yin Yang Boxing".... It's not a new name, that's the point. It's just a more accurate translation than Supreme Ultimate by far! And yes, I'm happy to use Tai Ji Quan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) mYTHmaker and Steve... I want to commence compliment you two for having a full knowledge of Tai Ji. Those who speak Chinese like me, a first, I didn't even know what "Tai Ji" meant until I learned from the English Translation. Tai Ji was only known to the natives as an exercise in slow motions and breathing was not even considered in the art. Edited August 23, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted August 23, 2011 I'm going to challenge this definition of Tai Ji Quan because it's one of my pet peeves - it drives me nuts. I get a little too passionate about this stuff... my cross to bear. Tai Ji is not well represented by "Supreme Ultimate," that's a terrible translation. It is a passable literal translation for Tai 太 and Ji 極 as independent characters, but it does not impart any of the meaning of the compound word. Tai means big, far, high, great and Ji means extreme, furthest, ultimate (as in the end of something), or pole. When you put the two simple characters together, 太 極, the compound actually means Opposite Extremes or Polar Opposite as in the north and south pole or the ends of a magnet. When a native Chinese speaker sees the word Tai JI, he does not think "supreme ultimate", he thinks Yin and Yang. Tai Ji is a word which connotes the inherent dual nature of experience. Everything can be thought of as having Yin and Yang components. These aspects define each other. Cold and hot define each other as do ugly and pretty, dark and light and so on. It's right out of Dao De Jing and basic Daoist cosmology. I know everyone here knows this so why do we keep calling 太 極 Supreme Ultimate? Just a silly convention, IMO. So Tai Ji Quan 太 極 拳 means Yin Yang Fist or Yin Yang Boxing. For some reason, this definition has never gained popularity in the West but it is a much more accurate approximation of what the Chinese characters are saying than "Supreme Ultimate" Fist which to the Western ear sounds like the Best and Greatest Martial Art. That may well be true and is subjective opinion at best, but it's not a good interpretation of the meaning of the characters 太 極 拳 Tai Ji Quan is the application of this very principle of Yin and Yang to combat. Taking advantage of the opponent's hard force through softness (yielding and sticking). Distinguishing full from empty and using that against the opponent. Avoiding so called double-weighting. Using short force against long and so on. So I would strongly encourage folks to think Yin Yang Boxing rather than Supreme Ultimate Fist when they read the words Tai Ji Quan 太 極 拳 Just my very biased and possibly erroneous opinion because, after all, I don't speak Chinese! Interesting. I will ask my Chinese speaking friends. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) Tai Ji is not well represented by "Supreme Ultimate," that's a terrible translation. It is a passable literal translation for Tai 太 and Ji 極 as independent characters, but it does not impart any of the meaning of the compound word. Tai means big, far, high, great and Ji means extreme, furthest, ultimate (as in the end of something), or pole. When you put the two simple characters together, 太 極, the compound actually means Opposite Extremes or Polar Opposite as in the north and south pole or the ends of a magnet. I agree with the opening dissent... but your just explaining its cosmological meaning so far... When a native Chinese speaker sees the word Tai JI, he does not think "supreme ultimate", he thinks Yin and Yang. Tai Ji is a word which connotes the inherent dual nature of experience. Everything can be thought of as having Yin and Yang components. These aspects define each other. Cold and hot define each other as do ugly and pretty, dark and light and so on. It's right out of Dao De Jing and basic Daoist cosmology. I know everyone here knows this so why do we keep calling 太 極 Supreme Ultimate? Just a silly convention, IMO. Well... native chinese are 1.3 billion people... your speaking for them? I agree they do not think 'supreme ultimate' because they think in metaphorical application. They DO NOT think of Yin and Yang... what they think is what 'supreme ultimate' might mean as an application to them... it means: MAN IS VERY SMALL AMONG THE COSMOS. it is a very simple and pragmatic meaning, and it is cosmological in a humanistic way, as the chinese people are. Maybe our western egos think we are too big among the cosmos to think this way... It may be to a few martial artist who want to maintain a Wu Shu idea to Tai Ji... but once we start saying what the average chinese person thinks, we should better know the average chinese person, or else we end up with our own silly conventions and sayings. So Tai Ji Quan 太 極 拳 means Yin Yang Fist or Yin Yang Boxing. For some reason, this definition has never gained popularity in the West but it is a much more accurate approximation of what the Chinese characters are saying than "Supreme Ultimate" Fist which to the Western ear sounds like the Best and Greatest Martial Art. That may well be true and is subjective opinion at best, but it's not a good interpretation of the meaning of the characters 太 極 拳 Tai Ji Quan is the application of this very principle of Yin and Yang to combat. Taking advantage of the opponent's hard force through softness (yielding and sticking). Distinguishing full from empty and using that against the opponent. Avoiding so called double-weighting. Using short force against long and so on. So I would strongly encourage folks to think Yin Yang Boxing rather than Supreme Ultimate Fist when they read the words Tai Ji Quan 太 極 拳 This is where it all goes so wrong... You should not extrapolate Tai Ji to Tai Ji Quan since you neglect the contribution of Quan and over emphasize some contrived meaning of Tai Ji... JMO... and here is why: Even if you want to talk about Tai Ji as the Yin and Yang energies, they are complementary and supportive; they wax and wane to each other as an ebb and flow. Tai Ji Quan is a combative martial art, as is said; 以柔克刚 , to use softness to overcome strength... And there is where it falls apart using Yin and Yang: Yin and Yang are not combative; they do not seek to conquer or overcome... this is an extrapolation in the western world. Quan is used in various ways but when combined with Tai Ji it gives it a very unique meaning as found in: 四两拨千斤. 4 ounces can move 1000 lbs. You do not find this meaning in Tai Ji alone... Edited August 23, 2011 by dawei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miro Posted August 23, 2011 I'm going to challenge this definition of Tai Ji Quan because it's one of my pet peeves - it drives me nuts. I get a little too passionate about this stuff... my cross to bear. Tai Ji is not well represented by "Supreme Ultimate," that's a terrible translation. It is a passable literal translation for Tai 太 and Ji 極 as independent characters, but it does not impart any of the meaning of the compound word. Tai means big, far, high, great and Ji means extreme, furthest, ultimate (as in the end of something), or pole. When you put the two simple characters together, 太 極, the compound actually means Opposite Extremes or Polar Opposite as in the north and south pole or the ends of a magnet. I am very sorry to say it so frankly, but that is your wishful thinking... Taiji is indeed "Supreme Ultimate" because original meaning of Chinese character "taiji" is highest beam (horizontal piece of wood) in the roof of the house ("tai" means fartest or highest one, "ji" means beam). Moreover, taiji is the cosmological term - the cosmological chronology of creation goes from "chaos" (hundun) or "without limit" (wuji) to "supreme ultimate" or "beginning of creation" (taiji) to "dual polarity" or yin-yang (liangyi) and then either to four patterns (sixiang) to eight trigrams (bagua) etc... or to three (or five etc.) and then to ten thousand things... To be precise, taiji quan should be called liangyi quan (yin-yang fist) because it works with changes of yin and yang. But it is called taiji quan because the ideal of taiji quan is to reach the state of singularity with yourself (so that there will not be your right and left arm, or empty and full, or you and the world around you, or you and your opponent), that means to reach the state of taiji. Therefore the translation "Supreme Ultimate" is correct and accurate translation of original Chinese meaning. When a native Chinese speaker sees the word Tai JI, he does not think "supreme ultimate", he thinks Yin and Yang. Tai Ji is a word which connotes the inherent dual nature of experience. Everything can be thought of as having Yin and Yang components. These aspects define each other. Cold and hot define each other as do ugly and pretty, dark and light and so on. It's right out of Dao De Jing and basic Daoist cosmology. I know everyone here knows this so why do we keep calling 太 極 Supreme Ultimate? Just a silly convention, IMO. So Tai Ji Quan 太 極 拳 means Yin Yang Fist or Yin Yang Boxing. For some reason, this definition has never gained popularity in the West but it is a much more accurate approximation of what the Chinese characters are saying than "Supreme Ultimate" Fist which to the Western ear sounds like the Best and Greatest Martial Art. That may well be true and is subjective opinion at best, but it's not a good interpretation of the meaning of the characters 太 極 拳 Yin Yang Fist is called Liangyi quan in Chinese martial arts. Liang means two, yi means polarity or "fish" of yin or yang. Taiji quan is Fist of Supreme Ultimate, Fist of Ultimate Principle, Fist of Beginning of the World, Fist of Everything (if you wish to understand it that way). Tai Ji Quan is the application of this very principle of Yin and Yang to combat. Taking advantage of the opponent's hard force through softness (yielding and sticking). Distinguishing full from empty and using that against the opponent. Avoiding so called double-weighting. Using short force against long and so on. So I would strongly encourage folks to think Yin Yang Boxing rather than Supreme Ultimate Fist when they read the words Tai Ji Quan 太 極 拳 Just my very biased and possibly erroneous opinion because, after all, I don't speak Chinese! Why to make "possibly erroneus opinions", and especially about things you are not familiar with or even do not understand? Is not it better just to ask? Anyway, it is not my business, wish you all the best. Miro Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) Moved to a new thread: The Basic Concept of Tai Ji Quan Edited August 23, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 23, 2011 Well... native chinese are 1.3 billion people... your speaking for them? No just me, and my few Chinese friends, training partners, and Shifu that I've discussed this with. You should not extrapolate Tai Ji to Tai Ji Quan since you neglect the contribution of Quan and over emphasize some contrived meaning of Tai Ji... JMO... and here is why: Even if you want to talk about Tai Ji as the Yin and Yang energies, they are complementary and supportive; they wax and wane to each other as an ebb and flow. Tai Ji Quan is a combative martial art, as is said; 以柔克刚 , to use softness to overcome strength... And there is where it falls apart using Yin and Yang: Yin and Yang are not combative; they do not seek to conquer or overcome... this is an extrapolation in the western world. Quan is used in various ways but when combined with Tai Ji it gives it a very unique meaning as found in: 四两拨千斤. 4 ounces can move 1000 lbs. You do not find this meaning in Tai Ji alone... If we should not extrapolate the meaning of Tai Ji to Tai Ji Quan, then how should we interpret Tai Ji Quan? I don't follow you. The characters Tai and Ji are used for a reason. The art was formerly known by other names but Tai and Ji were applied for a good reason. I agree that Tai Ji Quan is a combative martial art. Yin and Yang are not combative but the principals of Yin and Yang forms the basis of martial application in Tai Ji Quan. Yes, Tai Ji Quan is about the soft overcoming the hard but it's not just soft. It's plenty hard as well. It's about balance. I'm not ignoring the Quan, just trying to better understand how Tai Ji and Quan relate to one another and where the name comes from. I agree that we do not find martial significance in Tai Ji alone - I never implied that and I am careful to always refer to the art as Tai Ji Quan, never just Tai Ji, as you will see if you look at any of my posts. I agree with you here. Thanks for your response. I am very sorry to say it so frankly, but that is your wishful thinking... Taiji is indeed "Supreme Ultimate" because original meaning of Chinese character "taiji" is highest beam (horizontal piece of wood) in the roof of the house ("tai" means fartest or highest one, "ji" means beam). Moreover, taiji is the cosmological term - the cosmological chronology of creation goes from "chaos" (hundun) or "without limit" (wuji) to "supreme ultimate" or "beginning of creation" (taiji) to "dual polarity" or yin-yang (liangyi) and then either to four patterns (sixiang) to eight trigrams (bagua) etc... or to three (or five etc.) and then to ten thousand things... To be precise, taiji quan should be called liangyi quan (yin-yang fist) because it works with changes of yin and yang. But it is called taiji quan because the ideal of taiji quan is to reach the state of singularity with yourself (so that there will not be your right and left arm, or empty and full, or you and the world around you, or you and your opponent), that means to reach the state of taiji. Therefore the translation "Supreme Ultimate" is correct and accurate translation of original Chinese meaning. Yin Yang Fist is called Liangyi quan in Chinese martial arts. Liang means two, yi means polarity or "fish" of yin or yang. Taiji quan is Fist of Supreme Ultimate, Fist of Ultimate Principle, Fist of Beginning of the World, Fist of Everything (if you wish to understand it that way). Miro Thanks very much for your thoughts, very helpful and instructive. I appreciate you showing me my unskillful interpretation. On the other hand, you say: "To be precise, taiji quan should be called liangyi quan (yin-yang fist) because it works with changes of yin and yang." This is my point exactly - it seems to me that here we are saying the same thing. The reason I substituted Yin and Yang for Tai Ji was because to many Westerners, Yin and Yang is a much more recognizable reference than Tai Ji. That said, I do understand the points you make about the usage of Tai Ji vs Yin Yang. I didn't mean Yin Yang as a literal translation but i do think it conveys more about the nature of the art to the average Westerner than does Tai Ji or Supreme Ultimate. Perhaps I use Yin Yang and Tai Ji too interchangeably. They are very closely related but I think you are right in pointing out that they're not interchangeable. Why to make "possibly erroneus opinions", and especially about things you are not familiar with or even do not understand? Is not it better just to ask? Anyway, it is not my business, wish you all the best. I was making a good faith effort to try and explain something in a way that made sense to me. Does my post really make it seem that I have no understanding and no familiarity with the material at all? Perhaps I don't know as much as I think. My emphasis is much more on practice than theory. Nevertheless, you basically repeated exactly the point I was trying to make, namely: "To be precise, taiji quan should be called liangyi quan (yin-yang fist) because it works with changes of yin and yang." So I guess our understanding isn't as far removed as you suggest. I do appreciate your input and if I'm posting my ideas on the open forum you are welcome to make it your business. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 23, 2011 I think we all know what Tai Ji and Yin-Yang meant. Since we knew their meanings, we are just talking loosely with the terms but the actual thoughts are there to be understood. When I read all your posts, I do make mental conversion to understand what you all are saying. We all knew what they meant but just said it differently. Why not make the terms interchangeable for convenience...?? Let them be the esoteric terms in the Tai Ji society as long as we know what we're talking about... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miro Posted August 23, 2011 Hi Steve, I thought you are talking about the name of taijiquan and disagreeing with common translation. It is good to know that our understanding is not far removed, I can agree with you now. Best wishes Miro Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 23, 2011 I think we all know what Tai Ji and Yin-Yang meant. Since we knew their meanings, we are just talking loosely with the terms but the actual thoughts are there to be understood. When I read all your posts, I do make mental conversion to understand what you all are saying. We all knew what they meant but just said it differently. Why not make the terms interchangeable for convenience...?? Let them be the esoteric terms in the Tai Ji society as long as we know what we're talking about... Hi Steve, I thought you are talking about the name of taijiquan and disagreeing with common translation. It is good to know that our understanding is not far removed, I can agree with you now. Best wishes Miro Sometimes I don't make myself very clear and sometimes I'm just plain wrong! Group hug? It'll be fun to discuss the Nei Jia classics in more detail at some point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
