Is committing murder against the tao?

[brawnypandora0]

Are there instances in which murder is not immoral?

[Nanashi]

The "tao" is not a thing that will judge you for anything, but I suspect most people agree murder is a shitty thing to do, unless you have a damn good reason.

[z00se]

Not against the tao! No way!

[fizix]

Do you plan on committing a random act of murder? If so, make it a good deed at least and pay our scammer/harasser friend Lucas Huang a visit.

 

Okay, bad taste? Sorry, the guy is a major inconvenience to the good of humanity.

 

On topic, moreso.... please define 'murder', in its common colloquial collective context (and what's that other word I'm looking for?) such is an act of wrong, the dark side. Little known fact, savvy to the black magick/occultists and dark side energy masters; when you murder someone you gain heaps of energy (albeit negative, dark side energy, to manifest as anger, hate, fear...) as you are actually through karmic bonding absorbing/inheriting the karmic energy of the one who is murdered, and that includes subsequent karma traces manifested by the unconscious spirit through the intermediate post-death bardo realm, which undoubtedly so will be said emotions of anger, hate, fear given that most likely the victim was not a spiritual master liberated of ego and reactionary emotions (parallel of balanced chakras, blockage free purified chi meridians and Yang Shen development of the immortal fetus; karma dissolved with the anti-energy of the ego (emotional resultant) into non-dual rigpa Unity Oneness/Consciousness of the Clear Light). Subconsciously this energy rape/sapping is the subliminal motive of many serial killers; they are conscious of this increased height of (dark side) awareness... and yet there are many, like Hitler, who consciously knew of this dark side magick and acted intentionally as the karmic cause/source of the deaths of untold millions.... such impacts upon their ability to influence the masses in addition to other dark side siddhi's/powers subsequently developed as a result of murder/energy/soul rape... such as clairvoyance, clairaudience, telepathy, mass hypnotic influence, dark side entity/spirit communication/enlistment, hexing, among others.... yes the dark side is faster in progression to powers, but not as powerful as the light.... for the light is drawn within from infinite energy manifest love and in atonement will guide the warriors of the light to victory... the dark side is ubiquitous, all pervading, eternal and is an essential aspect of the paradigm, as the light cannot exist with the dark... yang cannot exist with yin, the complimentary opposites conception is a spoke to help balance the great eternal universal cosmic wheel of reality.

 

The balance is key.

 

2012 a new age will begin, we will see the acceleration of non-dual awareness among lay folk of the light.. however as the energies of the light side consciousness grow exponentially as the kundalini of the earth is uncoiled to magnify the electromagnetic fields of the planet which is corresponding to the sudden shift of human consciousness in polar potentialities, the dark side will grow as strong as the light.... as such balance is the Way, the necessity of occurrence in the great cosmic universal wheel of reality... thus multidimensional beings (essentially us in the future, literally..remember, even 20000 years into the future has already happened...in one dimension..) from the 6th dimension (our spirits' 9th stage of spiritual evolution in ascendancy to unity with the Great One Dreamer) will intervene upon behalf of the light (as misinterpreted in the book of Ra, the Law of One as well as Atlantean channels) and the so-called Harvest or "Rapture" (either or respective terms pending the energetic vibrational frequency outweighing of light versus dark among the human race) will initiate through the means of spiritual transcendence to the next higher vibrational realm/dimension through a soul-energy gravity well (by the MD benevolent light-beings) via the pineal gland a la the "third eye" the seat of the soul... pending individual energy makeup via vibrational frequency of correlating Yin and Yang energies a trial (however a trial, ascendancy is inevitable, provided the souls' nature of light) of karmic fortitude will ensue to burn the soul's remaining karma (unless one has broken the karmic bonds through fusion of the Yin and Yang energies, in which case one is an immortal Guardian of Heaven and such is his duty (heaven being an actual/highest vibrational reality - the final realm predating absolute unity with the One Source singularity infinity. Beautiful white light. The love. The wisdom. Unspeakable, unnameable, yet the sole invigorating absolute TRUTH.

 

 

 

 

The Tao.

Edited March 29, 2011 by fizix

[manitou]

Personally, I think the damage it would do to one's insides (the murderer) would be very difficult to transcend. A complete psychopath may be able to transcend the horrible commission of the act (assuming we're not talking about self-defense here) but in most cases the act would forever change the actor.

 

On the other hand, as much as I love to try and live in harmony with everything, the idea of abortion doesn't really make me scream either. I think this is where the straw dog metaphor comes in. I don't think the Tao really cares one way or the other who is murdered and who is not; after all, it is just an illusion that we are separate from each other. Every time someone is killed, the Tao is losing a small part of it's ability to EXPERIENCE; however, there's sure more where they came from.

 

This may be a really twisted point of view, but it's my current one.

[Marblehead]

I think a distinction should be made between 'murder' and 'killing'.

 

I will define 'murder' as the act of killing without just cause.

 

I will define 'killing' as the act of taking a 'life' with just cause.

 

Oftentime we must kill in order to eat. We might also have to kill in order to preserve our own life. I see no problem with this.

 

Now, I will say that 'murder' is against 'my moral judgement'. But is it against Tao? Remembering that Tao makes no moral judgements, I cannot honestly say that it is against the Tao. (Afterall, if it is possible it is within the realm of Tao.)

[Pietro]

Is committing murder against the Tao:

 

No, it is against humanity. What you do to others you ultimately do to the depth of your soul, so it's usually not a great idea.

 

Tao couldn't care less. It's you who are hitting yourself when you do it.

 

There are some people that do not have a problem in killing. My understanding is that those people probably take less karmic weight for doing it. The problem is not so much theirs but of everybody else. But then those people pay a big price as their life tend to be quite black and white. Not feeling any connection with other human beings. Maybe we could say that if you have killed every trace of humanity inside yourself (or you were born without, both are possible) than you can also kill without paying any price... more.

 

A more interesting question would be: can a person like that recover its humanity?

I think a distinction should be made between 'murder' and 'killing'.

 

I will define 'murder' as the act of killing without just cause.

 

I will define 'killing' as the act of taking a 'life' with just cause.

 

Oftentime we must kill in order to eat. We might also have to kill in order to preserve our own life. I see no problem with this.

 

Now, I will say that 'murder' is against 'my moral judgement'. But is it against Tao? Remembering that Tao makes no moral judgements, I cannot honestly say that it is against the Tao. (Afterall, if it is possible it is within the realm of Tao.)

 

Says the retired soldier :-)

[三江源]

 

 

There are some people that do not have a problem in killing. My understanding is that those people probably take less karmic weight for doing it. The problem is not so much theirs but of everybody else. But then those people pay a big price as their life tend to be quite black and white. Not feeling any connection with other human beings. Maybe we could say that if you have killed every trace of humanity inside yourself (or you were born without, both are possible) than you can also kill without paying any price... more.

 

A more interesting question would be: can a person like that recover its humanity?

 

 

 

It is an interesting question. Psychopathic killers who, in prison, are subjected to prolonged and intensive empathy training eventually begin to experience remorse. Only at that point are they experiencing themselves as part of humanity. The studies suggest that it IS possible to awaken the dormant humanity, or to belatedly join up the necessary synapses. But it is no easy task and it is not universally sucessful, nor do I think the results could be relied upon to be consistently in place, under stress.

It would be interesting to see how the movement would go, if such prisoners were subjected to internal systems such as BF's water method... the blockages they have are monumental and may appear/be experienced as vast lacunae, for a long time.

 

 

The karma in such instances I feel would be less about personal moral culpability and more about being a flagship for damaged humanity...living out a collective pain. It has to be as a result of very bad karma to be living as a psychopath: apart from anything else, their internal world is profoundly impoverished.

[manitou]

It is an interesting question. Psychopathic killers who, in prison, are subjected to prolonged and intensive empathy training eventually begin to experience remorse. Only at that point are they experiencing themselves as part of humanity. The studies suggest that it IS possible to awaken the dormant humanity, or to belatedly join up the necessary synapses. But it is no easy task and it is not universally sucessful, nor do I think the results could be relied upon to be consistently in place, under stress.

It would be interesting to see how the movement would go, if such prisoners were subjected to internal systems such as BF's water method... the blockages they have are monumental and may appear/be experienced as vast lacunae, for a long time.

 

 

The karma in such instances I feel would be less about personal moral culpability and more about being a flagship for damaged humanity...living out a collective pain. It has to be as a result of very bad karma to be living as a psychopath: apart from anything else, their internal world is profoundly impoverished.

 

As retired law enforcement, I could't agree with you more. The current system we suffer under is barbaric and punishment-oriented. Anyone with half a bubble should be able to figure out that those years could be actually input with positive stimuli - would work for some and not for others. But it would sure be an improvement over the current street-smart school that prison is now. On the good side, I've seen a few pieces recently on the news that indicate the awareness is starting to set in within a few penal communities and attempts are being made to rectify the situation.

Edited March 29, 2011 by manitou

[R.A.D.]

No committing murder would not be immoral or against the Tao, as the Tao itself makes no distinction on such things. However killing of anything even for self preservation or sustenance could cause one to have a hard time, and not allow them to be close with the Tao.

Edited March 30, 2011 by R.A.D.

[SageMD]

[if] People do not fear death

How can they be threatened with death?

If people are made to constantly fear death

Then those who act unlawfully

I can capture and kill them

Who would dare?

There exists a master executioner that kills

If we substitute for the master executioner to kill

It is like substituting for the great carpenter to cut

Those who substitute for the great carpenter to cut

It is rare that they do not hurt their own hands

 

http://www.taoism.net/ttc/complete.htm

 

If people were not afraid of death,

Then what would be the use of an executioner?

 

If people were only afraid of death,

And you executed everyone who did not obey,

No one would dare to disobey you.

Then what would be the use of an executioner?

 

People fear death because death is an instrument of fate.

When people are killed by execution rather than by fate,

This is like carving wood in the place of a carpenter.

Those who carve wood in place of a carpenter

Often injure their hands.

 

http://www.taoteching.org/chapters/74.htm

 

I'm thinking that killing is not our job, it's the job of fate.

Edited March 30, 2011 by SageMD

[Gerard]

Murder is bad karma...Dao is not about taking life but preserving it, nurturing the spirit that manifests in various life forms.

 

Silly question.

[Pietro]

It is an interesting question. Psychopathic killers who, in prison, are subjected to prolonged and intensive empathy training eventually begin to experience remorse. Only at that point are they experiencing themselves as part of humanity. The studies suggest that it IS possible to awaken the dormant humanity, or to belatedly join up the necessary synapses. But it is no easy task and it is not universally sucessful, nor do I think the results could be relied upon to be consistently in place, under stress.

 

 

How interesting!! I would love to know more about this, if you have any link, reference and so on...

 

 

It would be interesting to see how the movement would go, if such prisoners were subjected to internal systems such as BF's water method... the blockages they have are monumental and may appear/be experienced as vast lacunae, for a long time.

 

 

In an ethical system where you are supposed to find your own compass about what is ok and what is not, a group of people who are just ok in harming other people are a problem not just to themselves but to everybody else, and to the system itself. I remember Bruce when telling us the exercise on how to develop our ethical system mentioning how some people are ok (really ok, not just suppressing the feeling ok) in doing everything, and how this was "a problem". Maybe that tradition did not solve this "problem". Maybe Lao Tzu was wrong and not everybody was born good.

 

The karma in such instances I feel would be less about personal moral culpability and more about being a flagship for damaged humanity...living out a collective pain. It has to be as a result of very bad karma to be living as a psychopath: apart from anything else, their internal world is profoundly impoverished.

 

 

Interesting point of view. Indeed the percentage of sociopath is not a constant in different cultures, so it might be measuring something.

[Marblehead]

Murder is bad karma...Dao is not about taking life but preserving it, nurturing the spirit that manifests in various life forms.

 

Silly question.

 

I like that even though I do not hold to the concept of karma.

[Marblehead]

HMaybe Lao Tzu was wrong and not everybody was born good.

 

I get into discussions of that concept every now and then. Never very pretty. Hehehe.

[mYTHmAKER]

Is committing murder against the Tao:

 

No, it is against humanity. What you do to others you ultimately do to the depth of your soul, so it's usually not a great idea.

 

Tao couldn't care less. It's you who are hitting yourself when you do it.

 

A more interesting question would be: can a person like that recover its humanity?

Says the retired soldier :-)

 

Right on. Against humanity - not the Tao.

There are yoga meditation groups that have programs in prisons that are quite successful in turning murderers around. Don't have any idea what the percentages are.

Cat refers to empathy training which is what meditation does.

As one becomes more in tune they see less difference between themselves and others and lead more exemplary lives and follow ahimsa

[三江源]

How interesting!! I would love to know more about this, if you have any link, reference and so on...

 

 

I dont have any links, to long ago I found out about this.

 

In an ethical system where you are supposed to find your own compass about what is ok and what is not, a group of people who are just ok in harming other people are a problem not just to themselves but to everybody else, and to the system itself. I remember Bruce when telling us the exercise on how to develop our ethical system mentioning how some people are ok (really ok, not just suppressing the feeling ok) in doing everything, and how this was "a problem". Maybe that tradition did not solve this "problem". Maybe Lao Tzu was wrong and not everybody was born good.

 

Interesting about BF telling you how to evolve an ethical system... would this be different than the evolution of Te that happens via practice? Interested to know the excercise, if possible.

 

The psychopathic nature as it is recognised in psychology is one that has grown from a fundamental lack: the infant not getting required mirroring and eye contact and needs met, fails to develop the awareness of there being any Self outside of Own Self, through lack of experience of such. Therefore it is ok to do anything to anyone, as Others havent become real. So this says nothing about not being 'born good'.

A secondary issue is autism, and degrees of such.ie The failiure of external signals to reach their goal.. for example a child that cannot receive the love and reassurance he is getting.. the signals are too scrambled and the recipient too unclear in his own field. In this instance, as you probably know, the theories are manifold, many to do with toxicity levels affecting the brain, and nervous system, so that good enough mirroring is imperceptible. Mirrorring has to Writ Large, into a somehow tranquillised child, for signals to be perceptible. The toxicity levels theory has success with its prescriptions, which are based around extensive detoxification.( Again I dont have links for this info.)

 

 

Interesting point of view. Indeed the percentage of sociopath is not a constant in different cultures, so it might be measuring something.

Interesting about the sociopathic variables. Do you know more about it? It is less prevalent in closely knit communities I would imagine. If you think about how often people are aggressive on the internet, where they wouldnt be so in real life, you can clearly see at work what can easily happen to us when in an environment where it is all too easy to see others as not quite real .. same as road rage, where 'other people' turn into 'cars'..

 

[三江源]

As retired law enforcement, I could't agree with you more. The current system we suffer under is barbaric and punishment-oriented. Anyone with half a bubble should be able to figure out that those years could be actually input with positive stimuli - would work for some and not for others. But it would sure be an improvement over the current street-smart school that prison is now. On the good side, I've seen a few pieces recently on the news that indicate the awareness is starting to set in within a few penal communities and attempts are being made to rectify the situation.

 

Yes, tis painful. People say how expensive it is to keep people in prison, but I have also heard that the amount of people in prison, and the various work that they do, is economically savvy and akin to running a slave labour force.

 

Thanks for adding the good side.. always good to know.

[Seth Ananda]

 

 

I remember Bruce when telling us the exercise on how to develop our ethical system

 

 

Interesting, Pietro, can you describe the process gave?

[devoid]

I'm surprised that nobody brought out Tao Te Ching Chapter 31 yet, so I'll use this as an opportunity to make a bit of advertising for our TTC discussions in the sub-forum in which Marblehead just kicked off the discussion with three different translations:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/17975-ttc-study-chapter-31-of-the-tao-teh-ching/

 

Here's a line from the English / Feng translation that caught my eye in relation to this odd topic thread:

If you delight in killing, you cannot fulfill yourself.

[Pietro]

Interesting about BF telling you how to evolve an ethical system... would this be different than the evolution of Te that happens via practice? Interested to know the excercise, if possible.

 

I am sure I must have described it many times on tTB, although I tried to look for it and I cannot find it. In any case the new taoist meditation circle covers it for 1 third of the program. Here is the advertisment of the course. I am following it, as many of my meditations friends, and teachers.

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

The psychopathic nature as it is recognised in psychology is one that has grown from a fundamental lack: the infant not getting required mirroring and eye contact and needs met, fails to develop the awareness of there being any Self outside of Own Self, through lack of experience of such. Therefore it is ok to do anything to anyone, as Others havent become real. So this says nothing about not being 'born good'.

Very interesting interpretation, and makes a lot of sense. Although sociopathy is linked with being of the same family, but not so much. If it was much more, then people born from the same parents would very often be both sociopath. I am afraid there are times where the DNA just has the upper hand. Like people who become blind, and people who are blind from birth.

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

Interesting point of view. Indeed the percentage of sociopath is not a constant in different cultures, so it might be measuring something.

Interesting about the sociopathic variables. Do you know more about it?

It was on "the sociopath next door". According to it in the west 4% of people are sociopath. In the east the percentage is lower. But in no community that I know off, they are totally absent.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Pietro

[Marblehead]

So this says nothing about not being 'born good'.

 

Indeed.

 

I still hold to the understanding that we are born neutral (neither 'good' or 'bad') even though my understanding has been challenged on many occasions.