[TTC Study] Chapter 31 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[Havik]

Well its undoubtedly a pacifist chapter. However, I cannot understand this part:

 

"The wise man prefers the left. The man of war prefers the right" (Feng).

"When the gentleman is at home, he honors the left; When at war, he honors the right (Henricks).

"In ordinary life, a gentleman regards the left side as the place of honor: In war, the right side is the place of honor"(Wu).

 

I can't imagine it been a political ideological theme or is it.

[Marblehead]

Well its undoubtedly a pacifist chapter. However, I cannot understand this part:

 

"The wise man prefers the left. The man of war prefers the right" (Feng).

"When the gentleman is at home, he honors the left; When at war, he honors the right (Henricks).

"In ordinary life, a gentleman regards the left side as the place of honor: In war, the right side is the place of honor"(Wu).

 

I can't imagine it been a political ideological theme or is it.

 

That has its base in military as well as cultural functions. It's really not a very important concept. The main idea with that is to regard killing in war as a regretful necessity.

[dawei]

Well its undoubtedly a pacifist chapter. However, I cannot understand this part:

 

"The wise man prefers the left. The man of war prefers the right" (Feng).

"When the gentleman is at home, he honors the left; When at war, he honors the right (Henricks).

"In ordinary life, a gentleman regards the left side as the place of honor: In war, the right side is the place of honor"(Wu).

 

I can't imagine it been a political ideological theme or is it.

 

To me, it simply means:

1. At peace the left side is recognized [as a preference for peace-- honor]

2. At war, the right side is recognized [as a preference for war -- dishonor]

 

This is supported by the last five lines.

 

Why is "The commander-in-chief on the right." ?

 

As the highest ranking superior (normally honored to the left), he is responsible for all the deaths that will ensure (and funerals); so he gets the position to the right of dishonorable action.

 

---

 

Right and Left have an incredibly important role in ancient china. The left was dominant in many ways:

- Left side was man and yang. (The Adam and Eve of Ancient China is Fuxi and Nuwa were depicted as on the left and right respectively.).

- The ancient books describing sexual relations and interactions between the sexes stated men walked in the streets to the left.

- Cardinal direction favored is east: Since the emperor's palace should faced south, then the east is the left. Ancient Cities were built upon this basis.

- Twin lions in front of the palace represent: Left one is male lion as power (most senior official) and right one was female lion as family (guard of emperor's son).

 

Despite this, there are some references that:

- The right side minister was superior and changed to the left in 3rd Century BC onward (Eberhard).

- The oracle bones often had a positive charge (right side) and a negative charge (left side) to the issue they were asking about.

 

A somewhat curious and confusing passage goes as:

"All yamens in China face south; there are rare exceptions, usually owing to building difficulties. Once, in the province of Kwei Chou, I was officially invited by the mandarin to take my seat on his right instead of on his left, because, as he explained, his yamen door did not face south, but west; and, he added, it was more honourable for me, as an official guest, to sit north, facing west, than to sit south, facing west."

 

- The implication here is that the offer to sit to the "right" is inferred as being superior. I am not sure this meaning is the only interpretation. The site was admitted as not facing south (ie: situated to the north), so allowing the visitor to the position to the north could mean extending the honored situation. Parker, quoting this passage, infers simply the man was sitting to the 'right' as the reason for honor (north facing west).

 

One of the oldest symbolisms of right vs left is with one of the most archtype Yin Yang association; The Dragon and Tiger. Most today know the Dragon and Phoenix as symbolic of Yin Yang, but think that the Dragon and Tiger are antagonistic not Yin Yang. The oldest drawing of a Tiger and Dragon exists in a burial grave found to be about 6000 BC; the outline of a Dragon (on the right) and Tiger (on the left) was created using shells. While this alone does not imply which side is more honored, it should be noted that later, Dragons tended to take the position of the left and became the symbol of the imperial court (the Tiger become the symbol of the people).

[Marblehead]

Great info Dawei! Thanks for sharing.

[Procurator]

 

 

Right and Left have an incredibly important role in ancient china. The left was dominant in many ways:

- Left side was man and yang.

it is worth noting that the character for left had element of work, and the char. for right had element for mouth.

[Marblehead]

it is worth noting that the character for left had element of work, and the char. for right had element for mouth.

 

If I concerned myself with such matters I would probably say Yes, that is very well worth noting.

[dawei]

it is worth noting that the character for left had element of work, and the char. for right had element for mouth.

For those of us who do care about such things...

 

It may be further more interesting to note that neither appears to be in the oracle bones. The earliest I find is the bronze script and they both appear to have a mouth At some point, 'left' was changed to work.

[Procurator]

For those of us who do care about such things...

 

It may be further more interesting to note that neither appears to be in the oracle bones. The earliest I find is the bronze script and they both appear to have a mouth At some point, 'left' was changed to work.

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%B7%A6&submitButton1=Etymology

 

you are correct, some of them in bronze do have "mouth", whether its an actual mouth element is open to debate. but majority have "work" - a wooden dirt tamper. the implication might be that ppl were left-handed then as a rule, which later has been reversed.

[Mr. T]

cool! thanks for the info e'rybody...

[rene]

"As the highest ranking superior (normally honored to the left)..."

 

As to the origin of left, I mean, why it's "left" rather than "right" -

 

One of the reasons the 2ic was on the left side of the leader is because even though he was the most 'honored or trusted' he was also the greatest threat to the leader (takeover, etc). As most were right handed, with sword/club on right side, and with attack coming most likely from the left, body positioning was such that the leader could right-hand swing across in front of his own body and whack the contender.

 

Or so I was told.

 

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 31
1. 夫佳兵者不祥之器，
2. 物或惡之，
3. 故有道者不處。
4. 君子居則貴左，
5. 用兵則貴右。
6. 兵者不祥之器，
7. 非君子之器，
8. 不得已而用之，
9. 恬淡為上。
10.勝而不美，
11.而美之者，
12.是樂殺人。
13.夫樂殺人者，
14.則不可得志於天下矣。
15.吉事尚左，
16.凶事尚右。
17.偏將軍居左，
18.上將軍居右。
19.言以喪禮處之。
20.殺人之眾，以悲哀泣之，
21.戰勝以喪禮處之。

Translation in terse English
1. Military affair is not an auspicious matter.
2. People disgusted with it.
3. Thus, a Taoist not even involve with it.
4. A gentleman regards the left as a honorable position,
5. A soldier regards the right as a honorable position,
6. A weapon is not an auspicious tool.
7. It's not a gentleman's instrument,
8. Employs it only inevitable.
9. Peace is far superior.
10. Victorious but not glorious,
11. However, to a glorious one killings are joyful,
12. One who take joy in killing,
13. Cannot succeed to rule the world.
14. The auspicious position is on the left,
15. The inauspicious position is on the right,
16. The vice-commander is on the left,
17. The chief-commander is on the right,
18. It was said to be handled as a funeral arrangement.
19. With such a big massacre,
20. Thus funeral attendants with grief and sorrow,
21. Though it was a victory but handled as a funeral.

Edited September 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I don't know. If I didn't already know the chapter I would have a hard time getting a message from it.

 

This is, by its own nature, a difficult chapter.

 

Saddly, weapons are a part of the human experience. In the movie "2001" the first tool devised by what would become man was a weapon. And it was used to kill the competition.

[ChiDragon]

4. Gentleman take the left as the precious position,

5. Militant take the right as the precious position,

 

14. The auspicious position is on the left,

15. The ominous position is on the right,

 

16. The vice-commander is on the left,

17. The chief-commander is on the right,

 

It was interesting about LaoTze's style of writing in this chapter. In lines 4, 5, 14 and 15, he identified the left and right position with the attributes. The main figure always takes the left, the auspicious position; and the counterpart takes the right, the ominous position. However, if we look at lines 16 and 17, then why did he place the victorious chief-commander on the right position and his assistant on the left. It is because of line 10: Victorious but not glorious.

 

It was customary to have a parade for the chief-commander after a victorious battle. In the parade the chief-commander suppose to be at the left position, instead, LoaTze placed him at the right. Why...???

 

LaoTze thought, even though, it was a victory for the chief-commander; but he killed so many people to gain his victory. Thus in the parade, he should be placed in the right, the ominous position. Hence, the parade was treated a funeral to show the last respect and honor the deceased.

 

That was how LaoTze showing his feeling about wars.

[Marblehead]

Yep. Under normal conditions the chief is one the left so that he can be protected by his/her subordinates. At formal functions he/she is on the right showing that they are responsible for whatever happened.

[ChiDragon]

Yep. Under normal conditions the chief is one the left so that he can be protected by his/her subordinates. At formal functions he/she is on the right showing that they are responsible for whatever happened.

 

hmmmm......

By laoTze's definition in this chapter:

14. The auspicious position is on the left,

15. The ominous position is on the right,

 

At formal functions, the chief should be at the left, especially, he'd won the battle. Thus his victory was considered to be the auspicious and should be placed at the left. However, LaoTze placed him at the right, the ominous position, because he has to take the blame for killing so many people for his victory. Anyway, this was an illustration for a part of the philosophy of this Chapter.

[Marblehead]

hmmmm......

By laoTze's definition in this chapter:

14. The auspicious position is on the left,

15. The ominous position is on the right,

 

At formal functions, the chief should be at the left, especially, he'd won the battle. Thus his victory was considered to be the auspicious and should be placed at the left. However, LaoTze placed him at the right, the ominous position, because he has to take the blame for killing so many people for his victory. Anyway, this was an illustration for a part of the philosophy of this Chapter.

 

Yep.

 

Therefore, it must be regretable when many people are killed.