Wu wei: what isn't it?

[aridus]

I've noticed some get confused about "wu wei" or "doing without doing" or "effortless doing"

 

What isn't it?

 

It isn't acting without will.

It does not mean you act without force. You are not a wet noodle. It means the force you apply will be the correct amount. Not too strong, not too weak, the natural, right, amount.

 

Some are confused by the "doing without doing". This is just because of semantics and what people think words mean. It means let things be.

 

The universe knows how to run itself perfectly. That is where the 'power' lies: in the way the universe runs itself.

[Otis]

I agree with you, Aridus, about the "the right amount of force." I do have one exception, though.

 

I do think that wu wei is "without will". I think that will is specifically the ego's tool, and inhibits wu wei.

 

IME, wu wei occurs when I listen and follow, rather than when I choose or make it happen. No decisions, no will.

[aridus]

I agree with you, Aridus, about the "the right amount of force." I do have one exception, though.

 

I do think that wu wei is "without will". I think that will is specifically the ego's tool, and inhibits wu wei.

 

IME, wu wei occurs when I listen and follow, rather than when I choose or make it happen. No decisions, no will.

 

Good catch.

 

I didn't specifically mean "the will of I" or the will for a thing. I mean more of "base motivation", or going with the flow as one might say.

 

I admit that this part is quite confusing when we think in terms of self. And again a lot of it comes down to semantics.

 

Like a flowing river, there is movement, flow, force in some places and yielding in others. I use the term 'will' because it is more than simple inertia, a thing under inertia needs nothing else to continue, but there are other inseparable things. Inertia isn't all it is, but it is included. I find that difficult to express without saying 'will' but I don't mean it in quite the conventional sense. If that makes sense.

[Otis]

Yeah, it makes sense.

 

These concepts are difficult to describe, because English has all these ego assumptions built into it. For example: "I" and "my" become extremely confusing, when talking about emerging from duality.

[aridus]

Yeah, it makes sense.

 

These concepts are difficult to describe, because English has all these ego assumptions built into it. For example: "I" and "my" become extremely confusing, when talking about emerging from duality.

 

My first inclination is to say something involving "I" and "My".

My second inclination is to try to post without saying "I" or "My"

My third inclination is to not post at all, because I think that is the right thing.

My fourth inclination is to not interfere with myself.

My fifth inclination is to interfere with myself anyway.

My sixth inclination is to continue to fight with me because I think I am saying something.

My seventh inclination is to just run away with my hands over my head.

My eighth inclination is to not do that and remain.

My ninth inclination is to let go of "My".

My tenth inclination is to stop at ten because it seems interesting even though it is entirely meaningless.

 

Ultimately: a man is at a keyboard typing things.

[三江源]

My first inclination is to say something involving "I" and "My".

My second inclination is to try to post without saying "I" or "My"

My third inclination is to not post at all, because I think that is the right thing.

My fourth inclination is to not interfere with myself.

My fifth inclination is to interfere with myself anyway.

My sixth inclination is to continue to fight with me because I think I am saying something.

My seventh inclination is to just run away with my hands over my head.

My eighth inclination is to not do that and remain.

My ninth inclination is to let go of "My".

My tenth inclination is to stop at ten because it seems interesting even though it is entirely meaningless.

 

Ultimately: a man is at a keyboard typing things.

Decimal even discussing wu wei! When does 11 get more of a chance, is my thought...

 

knowing when to act and when not to act is crucial.. there is no enervation in the concept of wu wei, neither physical nor mental, nor moral.

being in harmony with nature is far from a passive state.

[Marblehead]

Nice discussion Y'all.

[aridus]

Decimal even discussing wu wei! When does 11 get more of a chance, is my thought...

 

knowing when to act and when not to act is crucial.. there is no enervation in the concept of wu wei, neither physical nor mental, nor moral.

being in harmony with nature is far from a passive state.

 

Lovely. Decimal thing made me laugh.

 

Anecdote that just happened, a minute or two ago.

 

I (I'm using "I" and "My" in retrospect) stepped outside. My dad's wife came out, trying to get the dog to follow her outside. Dog wouldn't go, laid down in the door, wagging her tail and not listening at all. She asks me to call the dog. I do not call the dog... I do... something.

 

I made a strange noise and took off running. Dog follows instantly. Free happiness. Feel connected to dog, but there was no dog and there was no me.

 

It was beautiful.

[三江源]

Lovely. Decimal thing made me laugh.

 

Anecdote that just happened, a minute or two ago.

 

I (I'm using "I" and "My" in retrospect) stepped outside. My dad's wife came out, trying to get the dog to follow her outside. Dog wouldn't go, laid down in the door, wagging her tail and not listening at all. She asks me to call the dog. I do not call the dog... I do... something.

 

I made a strange noise and took off running. Dog follows instantly. Free happiness. Feel connected to dog, but there was no dog and there was no me.

 

It was beautiful.

 

ha, wonderful. tao in action. with the bonus of a strange noise, always a treat.

[Otis]

Yay for strange noises! How will I ever liberate my throat and tongue from the captivity of conditioning, if everything that comes out of my mouth has to make sense?

[aridus]

Yay for strange noises! How will I ever liberate my throat and tongue from the captivity of conditioning, if everything that comes out of my mouth has to make sense?

 

Funny how some expect dogs to not only learn human language, but to listen when it is spoken as well.

[Marblehead]

Funny how some expect dogs to not only learn human language, but to listen when it is spoken as well.

 

And cats know when you are talking to them but they just don't give a darned. Hehehe.

[manitou]

Lovely. Decimal thing made me laugh.

 

Anecdote that just happened, a minute or two ago.

 

I (I'm using "I" and "My" in retrospect) stepped outside. My dad's wife came out, trying to get the dog to follow her outside. Dog wouldn't go, laid down in the door, wagging her tail and not listening at all. She asks me to call the dog. I do not call the dog... I do... something.

 

I made a strange noise and took off running. Dog follows instantly. Free happiness. Feel connected to dog, but there was no dog and there was no me.

 

It was beautiful.

 

 

Beautiful, but a little on the passive-aggressive side? How do you feel about your stepmother?

[manitou]

My understanding of wu-wei must be all forked up.

 

I'm under the impression that it takes an extremely wise person to see what it is that a situation actually needs. The extremely wise person has done all the inner work to get down to the Essence. It's from this Essence that he can See.

 

When the wise person can See the situation for what it really is, he is able to then Tweak. He tweaks it way down at the base of the matter and Knows how it will play out, because he has changed the dynamic in a small but huge manner.

 

The do-nothingness of it, to my understanding, is to then let the dynamics play out. To do nothing, to let them come to you. When action is required, only the minimal necessary action is done, and then done only with love and kindness.

 

I don't think that wu-wei is a state that we live in constantly. Although it's called 'not doing', I think it's actually doing something by 'not doing' it. Once we remove our ego dynamic from the situation and let it happen rather than make it happen, everything comes out differently. Yes, the wu-wei'er may have to swallow some ego in order for this to take effect. But it's the very fact that the wu-wei'er is capable of swallowing his own ego makes this all possible, because he's done the inner work and can sidestep ego with little pain.

 

Wu-wei, to me, is relying on the Universe to know what it's doing.

[Marblehead]

My understanding of wu-wei must be all forked up.

 

No, I think you are pretty close to it.

 

First, I will agree that it is the exceptional person who can remain in wu wei for extended periods of time. And this is because of your mentioning the ego factor. Self-preservation and self-betterment are very strong forces.

 

But yes, there are times when even the beginner can attain the state. I think the beginning phase can be best attained when we are in our own work - away from work - away from our family and friends - just in our own world. We can, for a short period of time, set our worries aside (they will wait for us) and just experience spontaneous life. Sit down it that is the right thing to do, get up if you are stirred into action. Just be.

 

Once we figure out the way we can attain this state (it will be different for different people) we can consciously go there when ever conditions allow. After a while the process will become more natural and we will find ourself in that state more and more over time.

 

Sure, we still have to deal with life; job, school, family, friends, etc. But when we don't have to be present we can fade away.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Marblehead

[Otis]

But yes, there are times when even the beginner can attain the state. I think the beginning phase can be best attained when we are in our own work - away from work - away from our family and friends - just in our own world. We can, for a short period of time, set our worries aside (they will wait for us) and just experience spontaneous life. Sit down it that is the right thing to do, get up if you are stirred into action. Just be.

Agreed. I think "beginner's luck" is a sort of wu wei, caused by lack of ego investment in the activity.

[mYTHmAKER]

 

I think the beginning phase can be best attained when we are in our own work - away from work - away from our family and friends - just in our own world. We can, for a short period of time, set our worries aside (they will wait for us) and just experience spontaneous life. Sit down it that is the right thing to do, get up if you are stirred into action. Just be.

 

Once we figure out the way we can attain this state (it will be different for different people) we can consciously go there when ever conditions allow. After a while the process will become more natural and we will find our self in that state more and more over time.

 

Sure, we still have to deal with life; job, school, family, friends, etc. But when we don't have to be present we can fade away.

 

I think one is in a wu wei state when one is present - in the moment - not with fading away.

This can take place at any time in any place with or without anyone.

Every action will be appropriate for that moment.

[aridus]

I think one is in a wu wei state when one is present - in the moment - not with fading away.

This can take place at any time in any place with or without anyone.

Every action will be appropriate for that moment.

I can somewhat agree, but I think this is mostly language.

 

I'll try to explain my view.

 

Is a river rock in the river, under the river, part of the river, or is it all of these at the same time?

 

Is water in the river, under the river, over the river, around it, part of it? Is water the river? Or is it all of these things at the same time?

 

I do not think we 'go to' non-duality. I think one moves away from it, only, by being one.

 

It's less about removing "I" and more about realizing that there is no "I".

 

I find when I think of "I" and wanting to remove it, that makes me cling to it even more.

[mYTHmAKER]

I can somewhat agree, but I think this is mostly language.

 

I'll try to explain my view.

 

Is a river rock in the river, under the river, part of the river, or is it all of these at the same time?

 

Is water in the river, under the river, over the river, around it, part of it? Is water the river? Or is it all of these things at the same time?

 

I do not think we 'go to' non-duality. I think one moves away from it, only, by being one.

 

It's less about removing "I" and more about realizing that there is no "I".

 

I find when I think of "I" and wanting to remove it, that makes me cling to it even more.

 

So "you think" the "i think" should have been left out of my statement below.

There is no moving in either direction. The river, rock, water ,you - are one.

At the same time? There is no time.

 

(I think) one is in a wu wei state when one is present - in the moment - not with fading away.

This can take place at any time in any place with or without anyone.

Every action will be appropriate for that moment.

[aridus]

So "you think" the "i think" should have been left out of my statement below.

There is no moving in either direction. The river, rock, water ,you - are one.

At the same time? There is no time.

 

(I think) one is in a wu wei state when one is present - in the moment - not with fading away.

This can take place at any time in any place with or without anyone.

Every action will be appropriate for that moment.

Language again.

 

I think that if I were to think that you should remove "I think", I still think and I still separate me from you. Better to just say "I think" and not fight it, unless it is necessary (and only then)

 

I absolutely agree, that it can take place everywhere. It does take place everywhere.

Nonduality is nonduality.

 

There's a difference between "I" and "I". One is "me" in the first person. The other is just a person. A whole can regress into parts. Some times the parts run off on their own and say they are whole, but it does not change.

[Marblehead]

I think one is in a wu wei state when one is present - in the moment - not with fading away.

 

Yeah, I knew that wasn't a good phrase to use but I had already typed it and couldn't think of an alternative way to say what I really wanted to say.

[mYTHmAKER]

Yeah, I knew that wasn't a good phrase to use but I had already typed it and couldn't think of an alternative way to say what I really wanted to say.

 

One can fade away while being present in the fading away.

[Marblehead]

One can fade away while being present in the fading away.

 

Hehehe. I might have been there, I don't know.

[aridus]

One can fade away while being present in the fading away.

True. It might seem that this is one case where logic does apply.

 

Things have their inverse. This may superficially seem like a separation, but it isn't.

 

Good example: if we define every single thing except one, we define everything. The undefined thing is defined by being the inverse of defined. Since we defined everything else, we know what the undefined thing isn't.

 

I only say this as a bit of demonstration, it doesn't take into account overlapping natures.

[三江源]

Like a brass rubbing... an image of a person materialises through effort and friction.