MeditationExpert v HealingTao

[BobD]

I have recently started to read quite a bit of the stuff on meditationexpert. A lot of it is too technical for my current level, but there is a lot that makes sense and that I can apply.

 

But I have got a question about his take on the whole Chakra/Spinning/Orbit stuff. He seems to say that all of those practices that involve forcing (or perhaps encouraging is a better word) your chi to move in a set way are just not worth doing (or even harmful), and that all you should do is emptyness meditations to get the mind out of the way.

 

For instance "Because you play with your thoughts all day, you are always interfering with your body's normal circulation of energies", and "your chi starts to rise because you let go of thoughts"

 

I know that this has been discussed a little before (mainly on the HT board) but I was wondering what people's feelings are about Bodri's stuff compared to the more active HT style stuff. I think that (at least some of) you guys still do (at least some of) the HT practices, so what are your opinions on such articles as "Don't Try to Spin Your Chi When You Meditate" and "Another Lesson in Why Microscosmic Circulations is a Waste"? Do his comments extend to all HT practices?

 

Thanks

 

BobD

[spyrelx]

[Guest]

It's horses for courses. Bodri emphasizes Buddhist methods for reaching samadhi which the HT system neglects. The HT system, as originally marketed in the UK by Mark Caldwell, was a spiritually 'neutral' collection of techniques which could be used with any spiritual belief system or none.

 

I remember Yuan Li stressing that the HT techniques in publication were only one way of working and that students should adapt the technques to what worked for them. He also advised that the key to making things work was to enter into a relationship with the life force, not forcing things, otherwise, as Bodri says the techniques are useless. He gave a good illustration with fusion; somedays the energy moves some days it doesn't want to, so do something else instead.

 

Juan Li said that you can use yang methods to show the life force what you would like it to do and then trust it to do it by itself (yin). In fusion he showed this by getting us to do the creation cycle twice and then trusting the pearl to move around on it's own accord. All active work should then be concluded with passive resting allowing the life force to do whatever it wants.

 

As regards not spinning your chi when you meditate: there's meditation and then there's meditation. It depends what one wants to achieve and what goal is being worked towards. Spinning chi may be totally appropriate in the active part of a session and then just resting appropriate for the remainder.

 

I use HT practices to get sufficiently clear to go deeper into my main spiritual practice. Fusion, the inner smile, the six healing sounds, and the circulation of unaroused jing are techniques that work for me when used creatively according to circumstance.

 

The HT presenation of Iron shirt has been condractictory and dangerous. I much prefer the qigong taught at the Tse Qigong Centre to the necessarliy watered down version of Iron shirt taught in the HT workshop I attended.

 

Rex

[Cameron]

From my understanding of Bodri's teaching it's not that HT practices are worthless but are the phenomena and scenery of the path..not the Tao. His emphasis on Empty Mind is Taoist . There is no question that this is THE central teaching of Taoism. If you think Empty Mind is somehow more Buddhist than Taoist read Tao Te ching...It's ALL about Empty Mind cultivation.

 

 

Of course there are different branches of Taoism. Like magicians, sorcerers, sex addicts, Immortality seekers and so forth. but how many of these people reached the Tao.

 

my time is limited and I have some experience with both poractices. However, Ultimately, I want to reach the Tao. For me the teacher's who have left the clearest footprints to the Tao have been the Zen Masters. From Bodhisharma, Huie Neng, Dogen and so forth. That is me. If you read the secret of the Golden Flower or practice Chia's meditations and think you are on the path..more power to you.

[Max]

it's not that HT practices are worthless but are the phenomena and scenery of the path...

 

Brilliant!

[Max]

Hi Michael,

Just want to point an important part of 9 bottle breathing from your HT post:

 

Being completely relaxed is the main point of this practice. As you inhale and hold the breath, you should use as little force as possible. That's the trick that opens all your little meridians. If one tenses even a bit, the meaning and the effect of the practice is lost.

 

Chia's Iron Shirt uses a different principal. Michael Winn doesn't teach it for many good reasons.

 

Somewhere long time ago a master meditated and observed the energy movement within his body. Later, he wrote down his experiences, and as many more masters wrote their own similar observations about energy movement, some people read them and thought they could assimilate those experiences in their daily practice. They thought they can reverse engineer the spiritual accomplishments by focusing on the effects to reach the cause. Some of them still do.

[BobD]

Many thanks for these replies. I am reading (and rereading) them and the corresponding posts on HT (and probably will continue to do so for a while!)

 

Chia’s meditations are premised on the idea that you are starting with a relatively quiet mind to begin with

 

That;s a good distinction. Mine isn't very quiet most of the time, so some more emptyness practice would probably be a good idea!

 

If you are, like me, a beginner, you need to find the path that leads you “in”. I’d experiment and see what feels better to you and go down that road for a while.

 

Been following for a while, but not as seriously as many here. I have many books/tapes (Chia/Winn/Frantzis/Lam Kam Chuen/Wong Kiew Kit etc) but I think I need to stop reading them and start doing some of them more! Really enjoying White Skeleton at the moment, together with the HT basics (Smile, Sounds etc).

 

All active work should then be concluded with passive resting allowing the life force to do whatever it wants.

 

That's a phase I miss from many of my practices, and so is something I can immediately focus on including.

 

but are the phenomena and scenery of the path.......(and) the teacher's who have left the clearest footprints to the Tao

 

Vey nice!

 

Thanks again to all. Really!

[Guest]

Good responses from everyone. Just a few points to Cameron and Max.

 

Cameron, I HAVE read the tao te ching and DO think the EMPHASIS on empty mind is more buddhist. Buddhism melded with taoism and confusionism in china and you have schools (e.g., Complete Reality) that are heavily influenced by buddhism. I'm not saying empty mind doesn't have its place. My own view is that it's a tool that daoists were introduced to and then -- like everything else -- incorporated for their own purposes.

 

Which gets me to the next point. You say "I want to reach the tao" and "the clearest footprints to the Tao have been Zen Masters". But I question whether you even know what the tao is (this isn't an insult -- I certainly don't). If you haven't attained it, you couldn't possibly really understand it.

 

And without knowing what the tao is, I question whether you can recognize who's attained it.

 

My whole point here is it's a matter of faith. If you believe the Dalai Lama has attained this tao thing you're after, then follow his path, If you believe Chia has, then follow him. Either way you're walking in faith.

 

A related point is I'm not so sure the "Zen Masters" (or Bodri or other empty mind guys) are interested in attaining the same thing as Chia or Winn or Frantzis. As I've said before, I think they might be climbing very different moutains and attempting to evolve into very different beings.

 

Finally, for Max. Chia never taught me Iron Shirt, but I have been taught it by two very senior HT instructors. Both emphasised NOT straining while packing. Both emphasized that you should pack but be relaxed (both external musculature and internal things like the diaphram). That's how I learned it so I don't feel there's a tremendous amount of difference in that regard.

 

spyrelx

[Cameron]

The questions you raise are interesting and I welcome all of them. I'll just try to respond as clearly as I can.

 

First..I don't have the slightest clue what the Tao is. My mind is as dirty as anyones and I am just a beginner working on myself. If you take the Tao Te Ching as not a quite true or wholly Taoist work but sort of mixture of Zen and Taoism I can accept that. I am not a scholar and don't know exactly when and where these different teachers and traditions got together and mixed different practices.

 

I have spent some time with Zen and you are correct that is the point of view I am writing from. Bodri offers a unique interpretation of Zen through the language of Taoist cultivation.

 

I am always weary of writing these posts because you never know how these things will be interpreted and we all know one's spiritual path and the beliefs and experiences one has aquired can be a sensitive spot.

 

I welcome your view that each path is distinctly unique and may indeed lead to a distinctly unique place..rather than different paths to the same mountain top. You won't find any arguments over the matter from my end as i simply am not at the level to really comment yet.

 

At the same time, even if I were to get a glipse of Buddhist Enlightenment, it may be something totally different than the Taoist stages of cultivation.

 

It would be nice for you to get Bodri's book and explore all these ideas together..you can take the role of the unbeilever or scheptic on his premise that all paths are the same . I am neutral on the matter but have yet to read it yet.

 

But your basic instinct is correct..I am a beginner..and clueless..and just trying to formulate a clue.

 

But at this point in time...I think Bodri is a bit closer to having answers to those questions than some other paths. Just my two cents!

[Yoda]

We got it all! I don't think any of us are married exclusively to one particular teacher, and even within one teacher's system there's a lot of picking and choosing. Not every practice Bodri or Chia laid out is right for everyone. I'm doing WSM, but not So Cream, I'm doing primordial but not weightlifting with my nuts, etc.

 

Spyrelx is right--there's a lot of direct "jacking up the chi" practices in Bodri's system: 9 bottle--it turns you beat red after all--that's revving the jets in my book! Japa practice is also a very directive practice too. In general, Bodri's stuff is gentler--like WSM--you aren't *moving* chi, but you are igniting, concentrating, collecting, and it allows even distribution which sets the stage for the next phase of abiding in sunyata.

 

-Yoda

[duff]

Gettinng results is the only thing that should truly matter in any cultivation school. One thing people have not spoke about much on the board is the results they have gotten or experiences they have had with the different practices. One great thing about Bodri's work is that he outlines for you the experiences you will have if you cultivate correctly and if you are not having these experiences then you are not getting anywhere.Funny thing though once i started having the experiences with chi melting my body, travelling up my spine, and flooding my brain leaving me in extasy that I could take through the day with me I went loony. Go figure Karma. I also had some experiences following Winn's methods but, I feel they are what Bodri talks about as a blind cat bumping into a dead rat. Its all good but if empty mind leads to chi cultivation how is that Buddhist, Taoist, or Maoist. Good luck to all.

Jeremy

[Cameron]

Excellent points Duff,

 

There is so much stuff involved here. Karma is something we all have and probably has something to do with what practices we each are drawn to. But ultimately, I want to practice and get results!

 

What does results mean? For me, it is the experience of bliss, feeling great and and one with all on a simple level. We want to be happy and explore these different parts of our being.

 

The Buddha talked about how to be really happy and at peace you had to realize yourself. Realize the emptiness of the ego self . If that rings a bell for you karmically great. If not-there are all kinds of versions of reality you can subscribe to.

 

Someone asked about how you know the Tao or how can you recognize the Tao. Well, how else but through your own experience of living? Faith is definetly somehting that seems important but the Zen masters and Buddhas all emphasized your own direct experience of the truth..which is always going to be way beyond concepts and words.

 

But here we are typing away trying to convey things that are beyond concepts and words with concepts and words.

 

As one Zen teacher put it "Trust in yourself!"

[Max]

Yeah, I took Iron Shirt 1 with Sharon Smith as well. I also had books and videos on Iron Shirt 123, and took Bone Marrow NK with Ron Diana. I practiced Bone Marrow Hitting and Bone Breathing for more then a year every day just to find out if it's worth it (although i changed hitting patterns based on meridian energy flow and the time of the day, because if you do it the way Chia says, it will cause you major problems). Eventually my goals changed and I stopped doing it (it is possible that my change was because of practicing BMarrow stuff).

 

I took this from Chia's site:

http://www.universal-tao.com/tao/course_ht...onShirtChiKungI

 

The core of Iron Shirt I consists of the chi packing and breathing process and the Iron Shirt postures. By using certain standing postures, muscle locks and breathing techniques, one learns how to draw and circulate energy from the earth, nature and the universe and how to pack the chi into the vital organs and connective tissues, the spine and the bones. This will strengthen and rejuvenate them, as well as the tendons, muscles, and bone marrow.

 

The bold parts is where Iron Shirt is different form 9 Bottle. It doesn't guide, circulate or pack anything.

 

I'm really glad you are on this forum. I wish you well.

[rex]

Edited April 23, 2007 by rex

[Cameron]

Actually..none of my comments were directly about anyone in particular and my Tao te ching comment was not directed towards spyrelx either..but it's all good.

 

Regarding TTC. it is my understanding that this book was written around 500 BC .about the same time as sakyamuni Buddha. If the idea that TTC is a micture of Zen with Taoism is true it's hard to imagine how it would have happened withing this time frame.

 

Bodhidharma brought Zen to China around/about 500 ad. I may be a little off with these dates but I think that's what most teacher's say. So if TTC was written a clear thousand years before zen entered china how could it be a mixture of one with the other?

 

In addition, if you are going to put Tao philosophy and practice over here and Buddhist practice over there, and you consider BK Franzis as representing the Tao side...(and I realize this has become an english proffesors worst nightmare of a run on sentence)..how is it that Franzis..who from all accounts teaches from the Tao school perspective..bases his Water Method lineage back to Lao Tzu and TTC. He doesn't say Lao Tzu and TTC are Buddhist taoist teachings but an authentic Water method school of Taoism in contrast to the Fire Method of Taosim that he classifies HT as.

 

Just trying to being some clarity to the confusion..for myself as much as anyone else..none of us were actually there but we can try to be somewhat historically accurate if possible.

[rex]

Edited April 23, 2007 by rex

[spyrelx]

Cameron,

 

I didn't articulate this before but I disagree with you that the tao te ching emphasizes empty mind and stillness.

 

I'm not saying its not in there, I'm just saying that the TTC is a very obscure and poetic document -- and the chinese language is extraordinarily flexible in translation -- and all these things can make it all things to all people.

 

For instance, I've read a few different interpretations and it's as if they are completely different books. In what I've read, I don't think there's a strong, consistent emphasis throughout on empty mind (compared to, say, much later writings of other taoists)

 

I do agree that the TTC wasn't influenced by budhism in that it appears to be older than budhism in China. This is one of the reasons I believe that "original taoism" (my phrase) is more shamanistic and much less related to the budhist empty mind emphasis of bodri or the Complete Reality school.

 

Like I said before, this doesn't mean that stillness wasn't there from the begining with lao tse, or that empty mind budhism hasn't been sucessfully integrated into daoist practice for a few thousand years, to the benefit of all. I mean, the daoists are nothing if not flexible.

 

I just think the emphasis that bodri and others place on the empty mind practice has less to do with what I would consider traditional daoism and more to do with traditional budhism.

 

spyrelx

[Cameron]

Tao Te Ching is probably one of those books that changes as you change. You get out of it whatever you can . I read it like ten years ago and it was quite different than reading it now . I suspect it will continue to be that way.

 

I know where I am right now and it's hard to comment on this stuff . Just follow whatever your intuition/heart guides you I guess. Good luck.