Should some arts/info remain secret?

[aridus]

I was just wondering this.

 

I just caught myself recommending an advanced and ancient neigong to somebody. Some even call it shengong.

 

I caught myself. I didn't think the person was very serious, so I didn't give a very serious answer. I think maybe I was wrong somehow. Maybe I should have just said nothing.

 

I said what I said and figured a few things:

 

a. they might find someone who halfway teaches a beginner course, maybe it will help, maybe they will get bored.

 

b. they might seriously look into it and open up to new info or

 

c. they end up finding the serious ones who don't teach it unless you have a lot of experience, and either they leave it, or again take it seriously and open to something new by looking into more beginner forms.

 

What should we do in such cases? Maybe I'm over thinking it. But it just got to me a bit.

[manitou]

Or maybe you just planted a seed that will bear fruit some years from now. You never know.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[doc benway]

I was just wondering this.

 

I just caught myself recommending an advanced and ancient neigong to somebody. Some even call it shengong.

 

I caught myself. I didn't think the person was very serious, so I didn't give a very serious answer. I think maybe I was wrong somehow. Maybe I should have just said nothing.

 

I said what I said and figured a few things:

 

a. they might find someone who halfway teaches a beginner course, maybe it will help, maybe they will get bored.

 

b. they might seriously look into it and open up to new info or

 

c. they end up finding the serious ones who don't teach it unless you have a lot of experience, and either they leave it, or again take it seriously and open to something new by looking into more beginner forms.

 

What should we do in such cases? Maybe I'm over thinking it. But it just got to me a bit.

More and more I keep my ideas and practices to myself or the small group of friends and fellow practitioners that I trust and have a connection with. I do think there is a time and place when we may help others.

I mostly restrict that to times when I get the sense that someone who is sincere is looking for help and I may have something worthwhile to offer. As I get older, more experienced (and hopefully wiser) these opportunities are becoming much less common.

[aridus]

Thank you for the replies. I'm humbled once again.

 

It may seem like little but I needed it.

[Gerard]

I wouldn't teach anything to anyone not ready for it whether in this lifetime or in the following fifty. It's like throwing seeds into barren land. Some masters follow the yuanfen principle, others like Tibetan Buddhists ask the potential students to undergo specific tests which they must pass before accepting them as students; and finally, others can read prospective students like an open book, hence know if their karma is ready for undergoing specific training.

 

Why would a teacher instruct a student that is not ready the art of Baguazhang if after 5 days they give up because it requires a lot of effort to learn how to just walk. They will be wasting the teacher's time and theirs as well.

 

As a result of all of this, some teachers decide to keep their knowledge secret, or pass it only to few commited and worthwhile students.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think that things should be accessible.

 

But at the same time, people gotta work on the stuff that is for their current level. And I don't necessarily think that you should hold something back because, "oh no, it's precious, I don't want unworthy people to have it", but in some cases, people who do it wrong can actually get hurt (think martial arts techniques and things).

 

So I think that there should be a clear progression up from the beginning to the very end, and I think each and every step should be openly available to those for whom it is appropriate.

 

If you don't feel comfortable giving the full blown, or a more advanced technique to somebody, then give them something else which is effective, but is good for their level. If they come back and it seems like they have handled that capably, then give them something that's one up on that. See how they treat that material, then ease on in to the other stuff.

 

Out of curiosity, what did you recommend to them?

[aridus]

I think that things should be accessible.

 

But at the same time, people gotta work on the stuff that is for their current level. And I don't necessarily think that you should hold something back because, "oh no, it's precious, I don't want unworthy people to have it", but in some cases, people who do it wrong can actually get hurt (think martial arts techniques and things).

 

So I think that there should be a clear progression up from the beginning to the very end, and I think each and every step should be openly available to those for whom it is appropriate.

 

If you don't feel comfortable giving the full blown, or a more advanced technique to somebody, then give them something else which is effective, but is good for their level. If they come back and it seems like they have handled that capably, then give them something that's one up on that. See how they treat that material, then ease on in to the other stuff.

 

Out of curiosity, what did you recommend to them?

 

It was Gods Playing in Clouds that I recommended.

 

And yeah, I'm totally against unnecessary withholding of knowledge. I'm more for a structured approach like you describe.

 

I think my perspective is a little different than most. If you let out too much at once, it isn't accessible, it is clouded by volume. Don't let out enough, it isn't accessible, it is clouded by mystery.

 

I've seen it in person and heard it from other martial/internal artists, where people come in the dojo or wherever, half heartedly wriggle around, and leave with nothing. I don't mind them, I think it is inevitable.

 

Some people want "kung fu powa" and are disappointed when they don't get it in a week. Some think it is a joke entirely. This is the kind of thing that I have to admit irritates me a little.

 

I really don't know what else to think or say about it.

[Sloppy Zhang]

It was Gods Playing in Clouds that I recommended.

 

And yeah, I'm totally against unnecessary withholding of knowledge. I'm more for a structured approach like you describe.

 

I think my perspective is a little different than most. If you let out too much at once, it isn't accessible, it is clouded by volume. Don't let out enough, it isn't accessible, it is clouded by mystery.

 

I've seen it in person and heard it from other martial/internal artists, where people come in the dojo or wherever, half heartedly wriggle around, and leave with nothing. I don't mind them, I think it is inevitable.

 

Some people want "kung fu powa" and are disappointed when they don't get it in a week. Some think it is a joke entirely. This is the kind of thing that I have to admit irritates me a little.

 

I really don't know what else to think or say about it.

 

Hm, interesting stuff, B.K. Frantzis has people certified in various levels of that, right?

 

It seems like that is out there in various forms, but some people only know different levels of it- some people only know the physical movements, some know those and the energetics, and the meditative aspects of it, the stuff that I'd say really make it a "shengong", well, only a few know.

 

But here's the thing with really, REALLY advanced stuff (at least, how I understand it now)- even if you know how to do it, it's useless unless you actually CAN do it.

 

Like high level meditations, and qigong and stuff. Unless you actually have the energy in your body strong, open, and flowing, and the ability to enter different meditative states at will, "knowing the technique" is really just knowing the THEORY. Even if you try to do something with it, you'll most likely either fail, or possibly hurt yourself.

 

The thing that separates one person who knows it and is able to do it, and the person who knows it and not being able to do it, is the person who can do it has actually put the time and effort to be able to DO it. The other person, nope.

 

In this situation, I'd say don't even worry about it. I don't know how much you know of it, how much you told him of it, how much he was/is able to work with it, but I'd say that, worse case scenario, it's absolutely useless to him anyway, and if he's the type who will give up, then after a while will drop it of his own accord in favor of something that will give him what he thinks he should be getting.

 

If he's really dedicated, then he'll work to a place where it is useful for him, in which case you helped him out a great deal

[aridus]

Yup. That pretty much concludes it for me I think. Thank you again.

[suninmyeyes]

I think these teachings should not be acessible to all but should always tried to be made accesible if one feels like it.

Keep the life alive.

 

Dr.Phd.MBS

[ralis]

What we are talking about is spiritual authoritarianism, which I have a problem with. All the techniques, knowledge etc. were developed by humans and passed down through lineages in a specific context, culture. Authoritarianism and control in any context, is about power.

[三江源]

If you caught yourself then it was correct.

Equal chance to have the opportunity to see for themself to find out if they are a, b,c or even d. The best that not fit is not the correct method, how ancient the method even shengong or something else. To wear a bigger hat that not fit you head will rob your sight.

 

Q

 

Wise Friend, that's a great apt and applicable aphorism I havent heard before. Thanks.

[Everything]

Some people want "kung fu powa" and are disappointed when they don't get it in a week. Some think it is a joke entirely. This is the kind of thing that I have to admit irritates me a little.

Look at it this way: you're there to teach them they don't want it. So it's not totally a waste of time.

[mYTHmAKER]

Teaching is one of the best ways of learning

[ShaktiMama]

Wise Friend, that's a great apt and applicable aphorism I havent heard before. Thanks.

 

Yes. I thought so too.

 

It is the practice that one does that prepares one for higher learning and the ability to understand what is learned.

 

Much can't be absorbed, even if someone was to tell you straight to your face, unless the ground has been prepared with practice.

 

Many people ask to satsify their curiousity but have no intention of acting on the info. It was a hard lesson for me to learn.

 

I have people come back to me 3-4 years later to tell me, "now I understand. I didn't get it back then. Didn't seem important at the time."

 

I once heard a story about little kid and his dad standing on the platform waiting for the train with a big piece of luggage. The little kid said, " I will pick it up and carry it, Daddy." The father said, "not yet son, it is too heavy for you to carry right now."

 

I can't make people absorb stuff, no matter how much I want, until they are ready.

 

s