Are there any instances in which theft or murder can be justified by tao?

[brawnypandora0]

In Albert Camus' novel "A Happy Death," the main character Mersault kills a rich invalid cripple named Zagreus in order to use his money to buy more time for living. Just before Zagreus is killed, he talks with Mersault in which he expresses sorrow that he'll never be able to enjoy his money OR his time and hopes that Mersault finds a way to happiness. Zagreus of course isn't explicitly asking to be killed, but his attitude doesn't seem to be particularly opposed to the idea.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Happy_Death

[aridus]

Tao justify? I don't think so. Humans justify. I don't think one with virtue needs justification. Things they do are in accord, or not done.

 

IMO justification is for people who like to run around in the dark. And they are of course allowed to do this.

[Aaron]

The Tao does not justify wrong or immoral actions. The Tao in fact is simply "The Way". What springs forth from Tao is Te, virtue. Te is the natural action that arises from Tao. If one of those natural actions that arose happened to be theft or murder, there still would be no justification from Tao, rather the people judging the action would decide whether or not it was justified.

 

This is better than your serial killer question, but I'm wondering what the purpose for asking questions where the answer just seems to be common sense is?

 

Aaron

[brawnypandora0]

The Tao does not justify wrong or immoral actions. The Tao in fact is simply "The Way". What springs forth from Tao is Te, virtue. Te is the natural action that arises from Tao. If one of those natural actions that arose happened to be theft or murder, there still would be no justification from Tao, rather the people judging the action would decide whether or not it was justified.

 

This is better than your serial killer question, but I'm wondering what the purpose for asking questions where the answer just seems to be common sense is?

 

Aaron

 

But that's precisely my problem. Does Taoism really say NOTHING at all about ethics? If so, doesn't that mean virtue is totally arbitrary and so those acts really are "with the Tao" or "with the Te" 100% of the time?

 

Take theft for instance. I've certainly committed it throughout my life as has everyone. But it somehow feels more natural to me now than before, so how can it be explained? Is my lack of guilt simply of not being afraid to get caught or am I fooling myself and there's something wrong with me deep inside?

 

So are Taoists utilitarianism who despise deontology? I can't imagine any Taoist having anything positive to say about a religion or philosophy as dogmatic Islam, for instance.

[Everything]

But that's precisely my problem. Does Taoism really say NOTHING at all about ethics? If so, doesn't that mean virtue is totally arbitrary and so those acts really are "with the Tao" or "with the Te" 100% of the time?

 

Take theft for instance. I've certainly committed it throughout my life as has everyone. But it somehow feels more natural to me now than before, so how can it be explained? Is my lack of guilt simply of not being afraid to get caught or am I fooling myself and there's something wrong with me deep inside?

 

So are Taoists utilitarianism who despise deontology? I can't imagine any Taoist having anything positive to say about a religion or philosophy as dogmatic Islam, for instance.

Theft is simply a lack of wisdom, nothing more. There is nothing wrong with stealing, it is quite common. With all the commercials, we are forced to steal. Without theft there would be no police force. Without theft nothing would seem valuable anymore. You must somewhere in your life realize that theft or nontheft really are the same. There is no way out of that virtual prison.

 

Tao goes the way of nature, don't care much for human politics. When a land falls into chaos, the only law that cannot be broken is the law of nature. The reason we cannot break free out of our handcuffs is because of the law of nature, not that of men. We should not limit our freedom with artificial laws and smoke-screen rules that blur out reality. If you do not steal out of fear, you're corrupt. If you steal out of desire, you're corrupt. It goes both ways...

 

If you protect riches out of fear for theft, you encourage theft. If you steal you encourage theft aswell. Theft is made up by humans, it is an illusion that we feed and grow big, it becomes alive. Don't pay much attention to it.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Tao justify? I don't think so. Humans justify. I don't think one with virtue needs justification. Things they do are in accord, or not done.

 

IMO justification is for people who like to run around in the dark. And they are of course allowed to do this.

 

What a great initial response to the opening post!!!

[Marblehead]

Yeah, in my understanding theft can be justified but I doubt that murder (not killing) can ever be justified. (Of course, we would have to define "murder".)