3bob Posted April 5, 2011 "enlightenment" can not be developed or made (per-se) nor can it ever be unmade, thus corruption can never reach it. Om Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Astral Monk Posted April 5, 2011 true enlightenment has nothing to do with opening one's heart or cultivating loving kindness.. true enlightenment has everything about cutting your mind to ribbons into the primordial awareness.. What's the point of 'true spirituality' then? Who needs it? Opening one's heart and cultivating kindness and universal compassion have at least tangible benefits for yourself and the universe at large. What is cutting the mind to ribbons good for? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted April 5, 2011 true enlightenment has nothing to do with opening one's heart or cultivating loving kindness.. true enlightenment has everything about cutting your mind to ribbons into the primordial awareness.. for those who think that true spirituality is all about cultivating love and kindness and nothing else, sorry to say this but you guys have wasted your time and energies on the wrong path Well I can't speak about enlightenment but I find it difficult and maybe even impossible to open up my nervous system and work through some of my blockages without compassion. Even on the very basic level if I start my practice with the compassionate intention to dedicate any benefits I get to help all beings then I find my practice is far more effective than when I practice only for myself. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) Well I can't speak about enlightenment but I find it difficult and maybe even impossible to open up my nervous system and work through some of my blockages without compassion. Even on the very basic level if I start my practice with the compassionate intention to dedicate any benefits I get to help all beings then I find my practice is far more effective than when I practice only for myself. Use the fuel that motivates you most! but... about your illusion that you want "to help all beings"...all beings, yeah? I guess you are surely a vegetarian, but have you any idea how many bacterias and other microorganisms you KILL everyday in order to survive? Maybe you should meditate about that fact, eh? I mean, are they worth nothing? Is your egocentric survival worth their daily death's in the billions? Where begins worthy life? Bacteria show impressive collective intelligence when orginized in colonies and have shown to be aware of their surroundings and surely FEEL when hurt or killed. That's what I don't like about you guys: Making things easy for yourselves, never thinking and feeling things REALLY through and ignoring ugly facts that don't fit in your belief systems so you can always feel right and good about yourselves. One could even say that the original sin is when your sperm is the one that reaches the egg cell first and it damns all it's billions brothers to die in it's egoistical struggle for survival. I thought these things through a long time ago and decided: "So be it!" Existence is flawed, I am flawed and my egocentric survival will always be on the cost of others, but it's not my fault! I tried several times to live vegetarian, but my body needs MEAT at least every two days to be strong, healthy and painfree! It makes me sick if I don't eat meat. Life is a struggle for survival and Taoism and it's ideal of Immortality is the ultimate consequence. Yeah, when you are an immortal / boddhisattva, THEN you can start to help every living being, but even then: I mean, who would you help: The mouse or the cat? A cat is a carnivore, it gets sick when it can't eat what it's made for. These vegetarian food shit will make your cat or dog sick.. What I try to say is that if you think things through to the end, all creation is born in sin because every being exists on the cost of other beings...at least here on earth. Accept it, embrace your egocentric existence and fight for survival....or be consequent and kill yourself, the worms will be grateful for that. At last, they will get your body sooner or later! (edited: orthography) Edited April 5, 2011 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sean Posted April 5, 2011 Because you haven't gone to wikipedia to learn more about something you've never heard about? People are quick to dismiss internet sources like wikipedia, but really they're just doing it without giving any thought to its content (which I have found to be, FAR more often than not, quite reliable, and a good collection of quotes from many different sources which would be very hard to find on one's own). Dismissing wikipedia because it's wikipedia is just too easy, wouldn't you say? i'm familiar with the debate in this topic as well as mahasiddhas. my point was not to dismiss wikipedia, i was simply laughing at the idea of coming to a fixed conclusion on a very open and complex inquiry such as this one via a wikipedia entry and no direct experience. sean 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheSongsofDistantEarth Posted April 6, 2011 true enlightenment has nothing to do with opening one's heart or cultivating loving kindness.. true enlightenment has everything about cutting your mind to ribbons into the primordial awareness.. for those who think that true spirituality is all about cultivating love and kindness and nothing else, sorry to say this but you guys have wasted your time and energies on the wrong path That ain't right. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) true enlightenment has nothing to do with opening one's heart or cultivating loving kindness.. true enlightenment has everything about cutting your mind to ribbons into the primordial awareness.. for those who think that true spirituality is all about cultivating love and kindness and nothing else, sorry to say this but you guys have wasted your time and energies on the wrong path Spoken like a truly enlightened being Edited April 6, 2011 by mYTHmAKER 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrew Posted April 6, 2011 Siddhis and Powers are essential for Enlightenment? Great, now you tell me!!. I was only a moment away... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted April 6, 2011 Use the fuel that motivates you most! but... about your illusion that you want "to help all beings"...all beings, yeah? I guess you are surely a vegetarian, but have you any idea how many bacterias and other microorganisms you KILL everyday in order to survive? Maybe you should meditate about that fact, eh? I mean, are they worth nothing? Is your egocentric survival worth their daily death's in the billions? Where begins worthy life? Bacteria show impressive collective intelligence when orginized in colonies and have shown to be aware of their surroundings and surely FEEL when hurt or killed. That's what I don't like about you guys: Making things easy for yourselves, never thinking and feeling things REALLY through and ignoring ugly facts that don't fit in your belief systems so you can always feel right and good about yourselves. One could even say that the original sin is when your sperm is the one that reaches the egg cell first and it damns all it's billions brothers to die in it's egoistical struggle for survival. I thought these things through a long time ago and decided: "So be it!" Existence is flawed, I am flawed and my egocentric survival will always be on the cost of others, but it's not my fault! I tried several times to live vegetarian, but my body needs MEAT at least every two days to be strong, healthy and painfree! It makes me sick if I don't eat meat. Life is a struggle for survival and Taoism and it's ideal of Immortality is the ultimate consequence. Yeah, when you are an immortal / boddhisattva, THEN you can start to help every living being, but even then: I mean, who would you help: The mouse or the cat? A cat is a carnivore, it gets sick when it can't eat what it's made for. These vegetarian food shit will make your cat or dog sick.. What I try to say is that if you think things through to the end, all creation is born in sin because every being exists on the cost of other beings...at least here on earth. Accept it, embrace your egocentric existence and fight for survival....or be consequent and kill yourself, the worms will be grateful for that. At last, they will get your body sooner or later! (edited: orthography) Just try doing your practice with the boddhisatva intention and see if there is any difference. I'm not a vegetarian or a boddhisatva but I find switching my mind into a natural compassionate mode helps a lot, also there are some ego contractions I get secondary gain from and if I was practising only for myself I may not want to let them go, but practising for others benefit helps in this situation. You don't have to dedicate your merit to all beings in the beginning just for the people you care about like your family and friends, then if you experiment expanding it to other people it is beneficial for you and your practice. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ejr1069 Posted April 6, 2011 My take is that siddhis are spiritual gifts that result from enlightenment to help one in service. I am not certain that they need to manifest in order for one to be enligthened. Rather, if you need some sort of spiritual gift for your ministry or service, then you will receive that gift once enlightened. I am a firm believer that the siddhi should not be the goal of your practice. The goal is enlightenment and the siddhi manifests as necessary to aid in minsitry. Of course, this is my opinion which could be WAY off as I have not yet attained enlightenment and am therefore not speaking from the wisdom of experience. Basically, this is my best guess. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
effilang Posted April 6, 2011 Isn't this a redundancy error since siddhis develop on the path to enlightenment?! Also i dislike how people use the word "enlightenment". Being enlightened is not the acme of alchemy or spiritual practice. Is it the progressive expansion of the perception, overall understanding and coalescence with the universe. It is NOT point B of (AB). A person may posses a degree of enlightenment attained through practice, but he may still be at the foot of the mountain, far from an immortal or union with the Tao. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 6, 2011 Just try doing your practice with the boddhisatva intention and see if there is any difference. I'm not a vegetarian or a boddhisatva but I find switching my mind into a natural compassionate mode helps a lot, also there are some ego contractions I get secondary gain from and if I was practising only for myself I may not want to let them go, but practising for others benefit helps in this situation. You don't have to dedicate your merit to all beings in the beginning just for the people you care about like your family and friends, then if you experiment expanding it to other people it is beneficial for you and your practice. Thanks for the advice. Matter of fact is that I am doing this already and being motivated to help not only me but also my friends, family or even our cat strongly enhances my motivation so my practice is much more successful. My final goal is clearly to become myself an immortal spirit and and rescue myself from suffering and destruction, but after that I won't go into some heaven but I will stay here and help other people (and/or animals) on this way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) Siddhis and Powers are essential for Enlightenment? Great, now you tell me!!. I was only a moment away... Many people (like me) are convinced that spiritual achievement is mostly the result of working with and mastering your life energy. What you do with your energy is the base, what happens to your consciousness is the result. As side-effect, mastering life energy will give you special abilities. Simple as that. Edited April 6, 2011 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orb Posted April 6, 2011 This thread reminds me of that game we were playing in the sand in the kindergarten : "What would you do if you had a million dollars". I mean does anybody here really believe that they have the Option to choose whether to develop Siddhis or not ????????? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 6, 2011 This thread reminds me of that game we were playing in the sand in the kindergarten : "What would you do if you had a million dollars". I mean does anybody here really believe that they have the Option to choose whether to develop Siddhis or not ????????? It seems you missed the topic. bodyoflight's main theses were the following: and how do you measure accomplishment if not by the amount of siddhis you have realized? siddhis are just your reports on how far you have travelled down the path bottomline you can't achieve enlightenment without siddhis These are not about the question if you can chose to develop powers or not, they are about the inevitability of developing powers when accomplishing a spiritual achievement and therefore about the conclusion that powers can be used to measure the level of the achievement. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 6, 2011 Isn't this a redundancy error since siddhis develop on the path to enlightenment?! Also i dislike how people use the word "enlightenment". Being enlightened is not the acme of alchemy or spiritual practice. Is it the progressive expansion of the perception, overall understanding and coalescence with the universe. It is NOT point B of (AB). A person may posses a degree of enlightenment attained through practice, but he may still be at the foot of the mountain, far from an immortal or union with the Tao. What you describe seems more like the result of a high intelligence combined with high life-experience, and therefore more a philosophical or mental/emotional achievement. Of course, when you pump enough chi into your upper dantian, you could get that too as a side-effect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orb Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) It seems you missed the topic. bodyoflight's main theses were the following: These are not about the question if you can chose to develop powers or not, they are about the inevitability of developing powers when accomplishing a spiritual achievement and therefore about the conclusion that powers can be used to measure the level of the achievement. I don't think I missed any point. I am addressing this exact theory of "the inevitability of developing powers". I am pretty sure you don't develop anything unless you are part of those very few in a billion to learn the secret trick. That's why I am saying you guys are discussing something you are not part of and most probably will never be and therefore you will never develop Siddhis. It's like the fat football fans having endless discussions about whos the best player and how can the Giants win the next game. Edited April 7, 2011 by orb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 7, 2011 I don't think I missed any point. I am addressing this exact theory of "the inevitability of developing powers". I am pretty sure you don't develop anything unless you are part of those very few in a billion to learn the secret trick. That's why I am saying you guys are discussing something you are not part of and most probably will never be and therefore you will never develop Siddhis. It's like the fat football fans having endless discussions about whos the best player and how can the Giants win the next game. As I said: You miss the point! There are few people with powers because there are few people with high spiritual achievement. Simple as that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Otis Posted April 7, 2011 What I don't understand is: what is the usefulness of "measuring our spiritual progress"? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted April 7, 2011 What I don't understand is: what is the usefulness of "measuring our spiritual progress"? avoiding complacent stagnant habituation in ones practice. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Siddhis viewed as accomplishment can be a trap. The way is to move beyond siddhis. Edited April 7, 2011 by mYTHmAKER 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 7, 2011 What I don't understand is: what is the usefulness of "measuring our spiritual progress"? Is that a rhetorical question? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Otis Posted April 7, 2011 Is that a rhetorical question? Not at all. I think measuring "spiritual advancement" is a sure way of getting caught up in ego. I think any story I start telling myself about my advancement is just a trap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
effilang Posted April 7, 2011 What you describe seems more like the result of a high intelligence combined with high life-experience, and therefore more a philosophical or mental/emotional achievement. Of course, when you pump enough chi into your upper dantian, you could get that too as a side-effect. NO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Otis Posted April 7, 2011 What I don't understand is: what is the usefulness of "measuring our spiritual progress"? avoiding complacent stagnant habituation in ones practice. To me, it seems as if measuring would have the opposite effect. If I think that I am advanced, than I am more likely to get complacent. More likely to be self-satisfied, to be "superior". If I think that I am not advanced, I am more likely to get despondent. Life constantly reveals to me that I have further to go. Every moment that I am still "me" is a reminder. So growth is always my #1 priority. If I don't want to fall into "stagnant habituation" then I need only view all my habit with skepticism, which I think I should do anyway. Self-definition is one of the greatest stumbling blocks I know, especially when it comes to my "spiritual progress". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
