[TTC Study] Chapter 32 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[Mr. T]

hey all,

 

just for flavor, and cause i like to see my avatar on the internet ( ), i'll post the lin translation...

 

The Tao, eternally nameless

Its simplicity, although imperceptible

Cannot be treated by the world as subservient

 

If the sovereign can hold on to it

All will follow by themselves

Heaven and Earth, together in harmony

Will rain sweet dew

People will not need to force it; it will adjust by itself

 

In the beginning, there were names

Names came to exist everywhere

One should know when to stop

Knowing when to stop, thus avoiding danger

 

The existence of the Tao in the world

Is like streams in the valley into rivers and the ocean

 

Derek Lin, translator

 

....

 

there's that sovereign word again...

Edited April 8, 2011 by Mr. T

[Marblehead]

there's that sovereign word again...

 

Yeah, I saw that. Hehehe.

 

Just trying to be politically correct. (And kiss a little butt in the process.)

[rene]

Yeah, I saw that. Hehehe.

 

Just trying to be politically correct. (And kiss a little butt in the process.)

 

Whose?

[Marblehead]

Whose?

 

The writer of the Chinese character. (No, I was not referring to Derek.)

[rene]

The writer of the Chinese character. (No, I was not referring to Derek.)

 

LOL I figured not; that's why I asked. Recall how he always asked for input on phrasing and word choices for his 'translation' back when he was writing it? He used many of the suggestions, including several of yours. Quit being so modest.

[Marblehead]

LOL I figured not; that's why I asked. Recall how he always asked for input on phrasing and word choices for his 'translation' back when he was writing it? He used many of the suggestions, including several of yours. Quit being so modest.

 

Hehehe. Ah!, the memories.

 

Sad things went in the direction they did.

 

But then, had they not I probably wouldn't be here now.

 

Cause and effect - what a wonderful concept.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Marblehead

[rene]

Hehehe. Ah!, the memories.

 

Sad things went in the direction they did.

 

But then, had they not I probably wouldn't be here now.

 

Cause and effect - what a wonderful concept.

 

Agree, and how well this fits in with Ch32, eh? lol

 

Glad you found your way here.

[Marblehead]

Agree, and how well this fits in with Ch32, eh? lol

 

Glad you found your way here.

 

Yeah, there are little bits of life all through the TTC no matter what time period we live in.

 

Yes, I am glad I found my way here too. I have greatly enjoyed all of my conversations here. Even the ones where the is strong disagreement.

 

And it was nice seeing you as a member when I first came to the site.

[manitou]

The first part of Lin Yutang's version is interesting:

 

Tao is absolute and has no name.

Though the uncarved wood is small,

It cannot be employed (used as vessel) by anyone

 

 

This interpretation seems to analogize the Sage with uncarved wood, as many have done. The Sage is one who lives within the awareness of the Tao. By being in awareness of the Tao, you are incapable of being manipulated by any other, as you are already in the place of utmost simplicity, the uncarved wood. This is an interesting take on it, I think.

 

I've seemed to have wu-wei on the brain lately; but within the confines of humans practicing 'not doing', they will find that the world works of its own accord. That their lives work of their own accord. This is so horribly unscientific, but I just Know that this pattern works in my own life when I get out of the way. When I follow intuition and instinct and keep my left brain out of the equation, things actually sort of magically happen; physical, real life, way too synchronistic timing....those sort of things. Or looking to the physical world, to nature, to birds and bees and butterflies, to transport ourselves into the place of Oneness with everything.

 

As the Sage asked for at the hot dog stand, 'I'll have one with everything...."

 

I think the concept of the names arising is pretty much how the deterioration through the ages began. The Oneness was lost, was separated in appearance. The illusion began, in some cosmic energetic universe that is unseen to us but very much attached to and part of us. Along with names came judgment, came the concept of good and bad, light and dark, yes and no. I think this chapter is telling us that the wise ones, the Sages, will always find the middle way, will stay in balance, and they will stay out of danger because they know when to keep their mouths shut and 'never be the first'.

 

I wish I'd known this when I was much younger, for what it's worth. Woulda saved a lot of road rage.

Edited April 10, 2011 by manitou

[Marblehead]

This interpretation seems to analogize the Sage with uncarved wood, as many have done. The Sage is one who lives within the awareness of the Tao. By being in awareness of the Tao, you are incapable of being manipulated by any other, as you are already in the place of utmost simplicity, the uncarved wood. This is an interesting take on it, I think.

 

This caused me to think about many of the Native Americans when the Spanish first tried to use them as slaves. The NAs just didn't know how to be someone else's slave. So the Spanish just killed them instead.

 

I wish I'd known this when I was much younger, for what it's worth. Woulda saved a lot of road rage.

 

Ain't that the truth. It is amazing how much we know when we are younger and how much we want to control things.

[Mr. T]

nice take, manitou. thanks for sharing!

[manitou]

thank you, Mr. T.

[stan herman]

Another version of this stanza from a contemporary interpretation of Tao:

 

 

32. What is in the world has always been in the world. Nothing new is made, only names are changed and viewpoints from which they are seen. Worldly people discriminate endlessly. They judge what is better or worse, invent titles, rank and status, and struggle (or complain) to obtain what they think they do not have. All of this activity is part of the way the world works.

 

Some people mistake their discriminations to be the substance of their lives. To get what they do not think they have, they push against stone walls, exhausting their energy and capacity. Thus, they fail to notice the possibilities that lie beyond their current discriminations.

 

When leaders remember the way of the world they bring wisdom to their leadership. Recognizing the familiar courses and turnings of people's discriminations they compare the present to the past, anticipate points of discord and help people to discover unnoticed harmony.

stan

Edited April 27, 2011 by stan herman

[manitou]

 

 

When leaders remember the way of the world they bring wisdom to their leadership. Recognizing the familiar courses and turnings of people's discriminations they compare the present to the past, anticipate points of discord and help people to discover unnoticed harmony.

stan

 

As does a community planner.

[stan herman]

As does a community planner.

 

'tis true, and often leader, planner (and sage), find the outcome does not serve their intentions. Hopefully, the sage at least, can shrug and smile.

 

I like and resonate with your previous observation about 'words' as the source of 'degradation' (while they are at the same time the source of the world--and keep us busy).

[manitou]

'tis true, and often leader, planner (and sage), find the outcome does not serve their intentions. Hopefully, the sage at least, can shrug and smile.

 

I like and resonate with your previous observation about 'words' as the source of 'degradation' (while they are at the same time the source of the world--and keep us busy).

 

Has a nice tower of Babel quality to it. But it seems like it's all coming back to the One. Even our computers instantly translate. Like a full circle.

[stan herman]

Has a nice tower of Babel quality to it. But it seems like it's all coming back to the One. Even our computers instantly translate. Like a full circle.

 

 

Yeah it's so funny--God keeps playing this game, and laughs and laughs. Attached is a picture (dbl clk) I thought you might enjoy (if I can manage to get it here.) Btw. is it ok to include pix in messages? How is it done?

Edited April 29, 2011 by stan herman

[manitou]

Yeah it's so funny--God keeps playing this game, and laughs and laughs. Attached is a picture (dbl clk) I thought you might enjoy (if I can manage to get it here.) Btw. is it ok to include pix in messages? How is it done?

 

You managed to do it just fine. I agree with you; we are the game.

[lienshan]

The Guodian chapter 32

 

The regularity of a walk has no name.

The micro-heaven of a simple fly is not a courageous servant of the earth.

Is an officeholder comparable to the king of a marquis?

Is the mutual combination of heaven and earth going to begin honoring everything?

The people exceeding sweet dew cannot give order to it and so to themselves equally.

The establishment of the first has a name and "already existing" is the name too?

This does also start a blockage of knowledge of the blockage of knowledge,

and is thus not dangerous to for example the existing world of a walk.

A similarity is the contact of a small valley with the river and the sea.

 

 

The most important line is:

 

The establishment of the first has a name and "already existing" is the name too?

 

When read as a commentary to these four Da Yi Sheng Shui lines:

 

What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One.

Below the soil is similar to the word earth.

Above the air is similar to the word heaven.

Dao is also their character; Early Dawn is their name.

 

The establishment of the first has the name Great One

and "already existing" is the name too Early Dawn (the character dao)

 

dao seems manifested according to the Great One creators

[Marblehead]

I don't like that one. Sorry.

 

If you want me to lie I could say that it is pretty good.

[lienshan]

I agree

 

The first part reminds of chapter 37 and the last line points to chapter 66.

I had the feeling of reading a not yet finished manuscript when translating.

The chapter is a later addition to the Guodian bundle A, because there is a

wide space preceeding the chapter and it ends without no following chapter.

Chapter 32 is too brushed by another person than the preceeding chapter 2.

[Marblehead]

I agree

 

The first part reminds of chapter 37 and the last line points to chapter 66.

I had the feeling of reading a not yet finished manuscript when translating.

The chapter is a later addition to the Guodian bundle A, because there is a

wide space preceeding the chapter and it ends without no following chapter.

Chapter 32 is too brushed by another person than the preceeding chapter 2.

 

Hehehe. Sorry you felt you needed to explain. But that's good for your own mind.

 

Sometimes I don't like work I have done so I destroy it and start all over again. (Hey! Maybe that's why I never get done with all my projects. Hehehe.)

[stan herman]

Hehehe. Sorry you felt you needed to explain. But that's good for your own mind.

 

Sometimes I don't like work I have done so I destroy it and start all over again. (Hey! Maybe that's why I never get done with all my projects. Hehehe.)

 

M. I'd be interested in your comments re my interpretation of 32. Not from a translation standpoint, but rather the message. It seems to me so different from what's been said so far.

 

32. What is in the world has always been in the world. Nothing new is made, only names are changed and viewpoints from which they are seen. Worldly people discriminate endlessly. They judge what is better or worse, invent titles, rank and status, and struggle (or complain) to obtain what they think they do not have. All of this activity is part of the way the world works.

 

Some people mistake their discriminations to be the substance of their lives. To get what they do not think they have, they push against stone walls, exhausting their energy and capacity. Thus, they fail to notice the possibilities that lie beyond their current discriminations.

 

When leaders remember the way of the world they bring wisdom to their leadership. Recognizing the familiar courses and turnings of people's discriminations they compare the present to the past, anticipate points of discord and help people to discover unnoticed harmony.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I like it. Sounds kinda' Chuang Tzuish to me.

 

You left out the "knowing when to stop" concept and I think that this is an important concept.