Critical issues in Taoist alchemy

[xuanying]

Welcome. This topic continues part of the discussion that had begun under the topic "Three critical issues in Taoist alchemy". For the earlier part of the discussion, see here.

[xuanying]

In the previous topic (see here) Daode said:

 

Fabrizio thanks for a lucid historical presentation, i disagree with it on paradigmal grounds, and so would native neidan schools who trace their lineage back to Lao-zi.

Entirely agreed, and thanks for pointing this out. I have the utmost respect for the tradition itself. I think history provides (if necessary) a better way to understand the tradition. I often think of a statement by A.K. Coomaraswamy, a modern but thoroughly traditional exponent of the Hindu tradition, who wrote:

 

"That the doctrine has no history by no means excludes the possibility, or even the necessity, for a perpetual explicitation of its formulae, an adaptation of the rites originally practiced, and an application of its principles to the arts and the sciences."

 

Alchemy, in all of its forms, and wherever it is practiced, is one of those "sciences".

 

this POV is specifically warned against as a recipe for "false elixir". The true components come from elswhere, not from postcelestial realm.

Maybe my sentence was not well written. I did not mean that the Elixir is made of postcelestial ingredients, but of precelestial ingredients. The precelestial ingredients are now found within the corresponding (opposite) postcelestial entities. The first statement about this that comes to my mind is by Chen Zhixu (ca. 1330) who wrote about the "Metal" (i.e. the Elixir): "This Metal is the Ancestral Breath prior to Heaven, but is generated in the state posterior to Heaven."

 

that is surprising since prolonged stages of 10 months, 3 years and "9 years of facing the wall" are well known.

It seems that all texts agree that these periods (usually 100 days, 10 months, and 9 years) are purely metaphoric. Some masters, anyway, say that it all happens in "one instant" (yike 一刻).

[Procurator]

Maybe my sentence was not well written. I did not mean that the Elixir is made of postcelestial ingredients, but of precelestial ingredients. The precelestial ingredients are now found within the corresponding (opposite) postcelestial entities. The first statement about this that comes to my mind is by Chen Zhixu (ca. 1330) who wrote about the "Metal" (i.e. the Elixir): "This Metal is the Ancestral Breath prior to Heaven, but is generated in the state posterior to Heaven."

 

I just happen to be midway thru Clarke Hudson's thesis on him. thanks for clarifications.

 

since you mentioned Wei Boyan previously can you please kindly point to a reliable, received copy of Can Tong on the net?

 

i have not studied it before and would like to test it on ND/WD affiliation. thanks.

[xuanying]

since you mentioned Wei Boyan previously can you please kindly point to a reliable, received copy of Can Tong on the net?

 

i have not studied it before and would like to test it on ND/WD affiliation. thanks.

The text at the basis of Chen Zhixu's commentary is quite good. You can find here:

 

http://www.daoism.cn/up/data/012zhyctq.htm

 

... and in many other websites. When you see a Cantong qi divided into 35 sections, it's Chen Zhixu's text.

 

Let us know what you find out about Waidan/Neidan, it's a very interesting topic!

[Procurator]

 

Let us know what you find out about Waidan/Neidan, it's a very interesting topic!

 

oh it is neidan,

 

二炁感化章第二十一

Two qi persuaded. 21.

阳燧以取火，非日不生光。

Concave mirror to get fire - without Sun the light would not be born.

方诸非星月，安能得水浆？

Dew collector without stars and moon - how could water condense?

二炁玄且远，感化尚相通，何况近存身？

These two qi that are far and far, if can be persuaded to mutually permeate, - are not even more so those contained in the human body?

切在于心胸。阴阳配日月，水火为效徵。

Close (they are) in heart and chest. Yin-yang pair as Sun and Moon - water and fire will similarly collect.

[tccii]

It seems there are two interesting points here worth continuing to discuss.

 

1) Differences in perspective between Internal Alchemy practitioners and Western trained specialists the field of Taoist studies (academics) regardingwhat is "Nei Dan." The term "academics" is not intended to be pejorative.

 

The nature of Western academic training demands that its specialists be as precise and clear as possible. For them, the term "Nei Dan"applies to practices related to a specific historical period, as outlined inone of Fabrizio's earlier posts.

 

Practitioners are taught that Nei Dan has its origins in themists of Taoist history – dating back to Huang Di and Lao Zi (Huang-Lao). They will tend to refer to texts such as the Dao De Jing, Zhuang Zi and Nei Yeh as early"Internal Alchemy" texts. Why is that? It is because they believe those texts are describing the same thing as the Nei Dan texts, using different language. In other words, to them "A rose by any other name is still a rose."

 

Is there a way to harmonize these seemingly opposing viewpoints?

 

 

In the previous topic (see here) Daode said:

 

It seems that all texts agree that these periods (usually 100 days, 10 months, and 9 years) are purely metaphoric. Some masters, anyway, say that it all happens in "one instant" (yike 一刻).

 

 

2) The difference between perspectives of 1) perfection happens in "one instant" and 2) it takes "100 days, 10 months, 9 years" to go through the various stages.

 

This reminds me of the instant vs. gradual debate in Buddhism, although I have rarely heard Taoist practitioners arguing about it. Many of the Taoist practitioners I have met accept that the moment of realization is "instant" but it takes a lot of hard work "Kung Fu" to get there.

 

The above quoted numbers are merely a heuristic - that is a general guideline which can vary greatly from person to person depending uponwhere they start and their own aptitude and dedication to the training. The varied practices expounded by the different schools of Nei Dan may also result in somewhat different models of progression in their training.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2011 by tccii

[xuanying]

oh it is neidan,

Just because a text says that the qi of Yin and Yang are not only in the cosmos (Sun and Moon) but also in the human body, it is a Neidan text?

Edited April 8, 2011 by xuanying

[Procurator]

Just because a text says that the qi of Yin and Yang are not only in the cosmos (Sun and Moon) but also in the human body, it is a Neidan text?

rough and tumble answer would be yes. please allow me to muse aloud.

 

in its oversimplified, almost simulacrum view, WD has nothing to do with internal workings or insides of the human body and everything to do with outside world. Ingredients costly and rare, the power of gods, secret transmission, utensils - all comes from outside. all is highly technical and technological. The resulting elixir "just works", and that's it. Even if there is a need for a theory ( but strictly speaking there is none) the theory does not need to encompass the human body, which is just a lump of mundane matter for projection.

 

obviously the section 21 does not only say that there is 2 qi. It says much more than that, very much more.

 

养性立命章第二十

Nuriting nature establishing destiny. 20.

将欲养性，延命却期。审思后末，当虑其先。

If you want to nourish nature - prolong destiny, push back due date.

To comprehend the latter - must analyse its former.

人所秉躯，体本一无。元精云布，因炁托初。

Man’s entire body - takes root in one nothingness. Primary essence separates - cases qi to begin.

阴阳为度，魂魄所居。阳神日魂，阴神月魄。

Yin-yang make residence - hun-po it inhabit. Yang-spirit sun hun- yin-spirit moon po.

魂之与魄，互为室宅。性主处内，立置鄞鄂。

Hun feeds po - in each other mutually reside. Destiny master of the inner - regulates within its boundaries.

情主营外，筑垣城郭。城郭完全，人物乃安。

Nature master of the outer - builds up the city walls. City walls are complete - man is safe.

爰斯之时，情和乾坤。乾动而直，炁布精流；坤静而翕，为道舍庐。

Then comes time - the nature mixes up qian and kun. Qian moves and expands, qi separates, essence leaks, kun quiets down and folds - this is the path to the grave hut.

刚施而退，柔化以滋。九还七返，八归六居。

Hardness expands and regresses - softness proliferates.

9 returns 7 turns back - 8 resides 6 abides.

男白女赤，金火相拘。则水定火，五行之初。

Man white wife red - metall and fire mutually arrest.

Then water stabilizes fire - it is 5 elements’ beginning.

上善若水，清而无瑕。道之形象，真一难图。

The highest management is that of water -calm, flawless. (But if) use images and shapes - that is a truly hard map.

变而分布，各自独居。类如鸡子，白黑相符，纵广一寸，以为始初。

(they) shift and spread - each one residing in its place. Similar to chicken egg, white and yolk complete each other, in a place one cun across, that is the beginning.

四肢五脏，筋骨乃俱。弥历十月，脱出其胞。骨弱可卷，肉滑若铅。

4 extremities 5 organs - muscles bones all in it. Passes 10 months - sheds out of its placenta. Bones soft fit to roll up- flesh gleaming as lead.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Daode

[xuanying]

There should be more "academics" here. I cannot and do not represent a large group of people who have quite different views and opinions. I'm just enjoying being here and I am talking for myself.

 

Let me reply only to your first point first.

 

Practitioners are taught that Nei Dan has its origins in themists of Taoist history – dating back to Huang Di and Lao Zi (Huang-Lao). They will tend to refer to texts such as the Dao De Jing, Zhuang Zi and Nei Yeh as early"Internal Alchemy" texts. Why is that? It is because they believe those texts are describing the same thing as the Nei Dan texts, using different language. In other words, to them "A rose by any other name is still a rose."

Not only I have complete respect for this view, but I share it -- except for one detail.

 

The important thing about the relation between the Daode jing (etc.) and Neidan, is that the Daode jing does not need Neidan, but Neidan needs the Daode jing. The Daode jing is entirely self-contained, and does not require anything outside itself. Its doctrine can be applied, in full or in part, to different fields (replace "fields" by practices, arts, sciences, etc.). Now, a Neidan practitioner could claim that the Daode jing is a Neidan text. But, say, an army general who practices the "art of war" could claim that the Daode jing is about making war.

 

So, would the Daode jing be about Neidan or about war? I would say it is about neither -- but its teachings (and its words) can be applied to an indefinite number of fields. Neidan is one of these fields. (Neidan also needs other supports, but let's leave this aside now.)

 

In other words, the Daode jing contains the most important statement of doctrines that are fundamental in Neidan, but is not "a Neidan text" of its own. Take for example, the famous passage: "The Dao generates the One, the One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, the Three generate the ten thousand things". Neidan masters of all times have applied these words to the Neidan practice, which goes through those stages in a reverse order for "returning to the Dao". Does this mean that the Daode jing was describing the Neidan practice? I think the answer is obvious.

 

Is there a way to harmonize these seemingly opposing viewpoints?

 

Good question! I think there is no way to harmonize them. The most fruitful attitude is to accept both of them.

Edited April 8, 2011 by xuanying

[tccii]

There should be more "academics" here. I cannot and do not represent a large group of people who have quite different views and opinions. I'm just enjoying being here and I am talking for myself.

 

Let me reply only to your first point first.

 

 

Not only I have complete respect for this view, but I share it -- except for one detail.

 

The important thing about the relation between the Daode jing (etc.) and Neidan, is that the Daode jing does not need Neidan, but Neidan needs the Daode jing. The Daode jing is entirely self-contained, and does not require anything outside itself. Its doctrine can be applied, in full or in part, to different fields (replace "fields" by practices, arts, sciences, etc.). Now, a Neidan practitioner could claim that the Daode jing is a Neidan text. But, say, an army general who practices the "art of war" could claim that the Daode jing is about making war.

 

So, would the Daode jing be about Neidan or about war? I would say it is about neither -- but its teachings (and its words) can be applied to an indefinite number of fields. Neidan is one of these fields. (Neidan also needs other supports, but let's leave this aside now.)

 

In other words, the Daode jing contains the most important statement of doctrines that are fundamental in Neidan, but is not "a Neidan text" of its own. Take for example, the famous passage: "The Dao generates the One, the One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, the Three generate the ten thousand things". Neidan masters of all times have applied these words to the Neidan practice, which goes through those stages in a reverse order for "returning to the Dao". Does this mean that the Daode jing was describing the Neidan practice? I think the answer is obvious.

 

 

 

Good question! I think there is no way to harmonize them. The most fruitful attitude is to accept both of them.

 

Actually, I agree with you that the DDJ is not a Nei Dan text in the strict sense. This is because I accept the more technical definition of Nei Dan that academics use - and yes, this field could use more of them, especially if they are also practitioners.

 

It is however possible to view it as an internal cultivation text which describe methods that ultimately produce the same effect as Nei Dan, that is "uniting with the Tao" "perfection" or "immortality". IN this case, the text does indeed stand alone. Although your selected quote would not support this point, many of the other chapters would. For example, Chapters 2, 3, 5 and 6 are thought to provide fairly specific advice on how to cultivate. Some practitioners consider that Chapter 3 "...The sage empties the heart and fills the belly..." is the basis for the two major lines of Taoist internal cultivation.

 

This, of course, does not preclude the text from being read as applying to all other activities in this world -- "As above, so below." If anything, its application to other areas strengthens its value as a guide to inner cultivation. That is because ordering your life's affairs is one of the major prerequisites for an aspiring practitioner to begin their training.

 

The point is not to create an argument, but as foundation for this question:

 

Is there an umbrella concept within academia to look at Taoist cultivation aimed at "uniting with the Tao" in general but recognizing various subsets of this cultivation? Said subsets may consist of methods characterized by historically specific identifiers e.g. Nei Dan.

[Procurator]

 

 

So, would the Daode jing be about Neidan or about war? I would say it is about neither --

 

 

uh..umm..pardon my being direct and all, but what was it about then, exactly ?

 

sorry

[Stigweard]

uh..umm..pardon my being direct and all, but what was it about then, exactly ?

 

sorry

I think what we have to be aware of is that the Daodi jing is about helping the adherent develop the world view as prescribed by Laozi. From this fundamental world view neidan, taiji, yangsheng, and other varieties of Taoist-aligned practices emerged.

 

I am inclined to agree with xuanying here that Laozi is like the lowest common denominator that infuses the whole Taoist tradition.

 

[xuanying]

obviously the section 21 does not only say that there is 2 qi. It says much more than that, very much more.

Daode, you picked up one of the most difficult passages in the whole Cantong qi! In my way of seeing, it's about the origins of life, about how individual existence begins. Later, the Neidan commentators took this passage (especially the final verses) as a description of how the "inner embryo" is formed.

 

I was glad to see that you read the verses "九还七返，八归六居" basically in the same way as I read them. But shouldn't gui 归 mean "to return, go back" instead of "reside"?

[xuanying]

. . . For example, Chapters 2, 3, 5 and 6 are thought to provide fairly specific advice on how to cultivate. Some practitioners consider that Chapter 3 "...The sage empties the heart and fills the belly..." is the basis for the two major lines of Taoist internal cultivation.

 

It seems we fully agree. I would use your words, "is the basis for...", in most discussions that involve the relation between the Daode jing and specific forms of practice.

 

For several years now, some scholars have been thinking that the Daode jing directly derives from groups that practiced some form of "self-cultivation". This is difficult both to prove and to deny. Of course, there is also the question of the importance that the Daode jing gives to the ruler (for other scholars, the Daode jing is first of all a treatise on politics) -- but the two topics are not necessarily in contradiction.

 

Is there an umbrella concept within academia to look at Taoist cultivation aimed at "uniting with the Tao" in general but recognizing various subsets of this cultivation? Said subsets may consist of methods characterized by historically specific identifiers e.g. Nei Dan.

I think most scholars (at least most of those who, within Taoism, study the "self-cultivation" traditions) would basically agree with this point of view.

Edited April 9, 2011 by xuanying

[xuanying]

uh..umm..pardon my being direct and all, but what was it about then, exactly ?

It's all about the first sentence: 道可道非常道. The rest is just a footnote.

[xuanying]

I think what we have to be aware of is that the Daodi jing is about helping the adherent develop the world view as prescribed by Laozi. From this fundamental world view neidan, taiji, yangsheng, and other varieties of Taoist-aligned practices emerged.

 

I am inclined to agree with xuanying here that Laozi is like the lowest common denominator that infuses the whole Taoist tradition.

We are enjoying this discussion -- maybe forgetting the ritual traditions of Taoism. For many scholars, those are "real Taoism".

[Procurator]

Daode, you picked up one of the most difficult passages in the whole Cantong qi! In my way of seeing, it's about the origins of life, about how individual existence begins.

 

the s. 21 is structurally divided in 2 parts first one about the start of mundane life which end in "grave hut". things are difficult only if you make them be:) as i noted above, if it was WD there would be no need for theory of human origin.

 

Later, the Neidan commentators took this passage (especially the final verses) as a description of how the "inner embryo" is formed.

it certainly is that is why it ends with "lead". the whole text is originally ND, later it was mistaken for WD. same thing has happened in the western alchemy.

I was glad to see that you read the verses "九还七返，八归六居" basically in the same way as I read them. But shouldn't gui 归 mean "to return, go back" instead of "reside"?

words in old text are chosen with precision, - odd numbers are recycled to turn them into even numbers, 9 into 7 , 7 into 8, 8 is even so it is here to stay but still gets recycled into 6. i chosen "reside" for a little pun: 8's "resi-due" is 6. Edited April 9, 2011 by Daode

[Procurator]

We are enjoying this discussion -- maybe forgetting the ritual traditions of Taoism. For many scholars, those are "real Taoism".

one of their main liturgies is re-enactment of a ND process, no?

[tccii]

We are enjoying this discussion -- maybe forgetting the ritual traditions of Taoism.

 

Indeed, ritual is itself one of the subsets of "immortality"cultivation. One of the many "vehicles" to borrow a Buddhist term.

 

For many scholars, those are "real Taoism".

 

 

Are you referring to the "Taoism is (first and foremost) a religion" group?

[xuanying]

the s. 21 is structurally divided in 2 parts first one about the start of mundane life which end in "grave hut". things are difficult only if you make them be:) as i noted above, if it was WD there would be no need for theory of human origin.

Daode, I know it's very hard to convince you... , but the difference is not between Waidan and Neidan: it is between "superior virtue" and "inferior virtue". Believe it or not, according to the Cantong qi, alchemy is the way of "inferior virtue".

 

Since you read Chinese, read very carefully sections 6 and 7 in the text you downloaded. Section 6 describes "superior virtue". Section 7 describes the difference between "superior" and "inferior" virtue. Then it continues with a description of "inferior virtue". And that description is about alchemy. (It is irrelevant whether it is about Waidan or Neidan.)

 

 

it certainly is that is why it ends with "lead". the whole text is originally ND, later it was mistaken for WD. same thing has happened in the western alchemy.

Don't forget that other versions of the Cantong qi have yi 飴 ("putty" or "candy") instead of qian 鉛 "lead": "... and its flesh is as smooth as putty". -- The Cantong qi is a tricky text!

 

words in old text are chosen with precision, - odd numbers are recycled to turn them into even numbers, 9 into 7 , 7 into 8, 8 is even so it is here to stay but still gets recycled into 6. i chosen "reside" for a little pun: 8's "resi-due" is 6.

There is another explanation: Fire (7), Wood (8), and Metal (9) return to the 1 of Water, but since Water (6) has 1 as its own "generation number", it does not need to return to it, and thus it "remains".

[xuanying]

Indeed, ritual is itself one of the subsets of "immortality"cultivation. One of the many "vehicles" to borrow a Buddhist term.

Never say this in front of a group of scholars!

 

 

Are you referring to the "Taoism is (first and foremost) a religion" group?

More or less. It's one of the most difficult fields to study. Many scholars are doing an excellent work in this area, either historically or in the present day. I think you should not discount it, even if you are interested in other aspects of Taoism.

[xuanying]

Wow, I have written 26 posts and now it says Tao Master under my picture! I thought it's easy to become a Taoist in the West, but it's even easier to become a Tao Master! Just write 25 posts!!!

 

Anyone knows how many posts it takes to become an Immortal?

[xuanying]

tcii, this is about the second point in your earlier post...

 

2) The difference between perspectives of 1) perfection happens in "one instant" and 2) it takes "100 days, 10 months, 9 years" to go through the various stages.

 

This reminds me of the instant vs. gradual debate in Buddhism, although I have rarely heard Taoist practitioners arguing about it. Many of the Taoist practitioners I have met accept that the moment of realization is "instant" but it takes a lot of hard work "Kung Fu" to get there.

It's not easy to talk about this. Anyway, the formal explanation is the difference between "superior virtue" and "inferior virtue", or between Internal Medicine and External Medicine. (This has fundamentally nothing to do with the difference between Neidan and Waidan.) The External Medicine is obtained through practice, which is a form of "doing" (youwei) and is the way of "inferior virtue". If everything goes well, it leads to the Internal Medicine, which is "non-doing" (wuwei) and is the way of "superior virtue".

 

The External Medicine is obtained, as you say, by "a lot of hard work". The Internal Medicine fundamentally does not need any "work". It is inherently possessed by every human being. Thus, the Internal Medicine can be realized either through the Neidan practice (formally timed as "100 days, 10 months, 9 years"), or in just "one instant".

 

This is, approximately, the explanation given by some Neidan masters, at least by those who talk about it.

 

--

 

PS. I wrote "This has fundamentally nothing to do with the difference between Neidan and Waidan", and in fact it doesn't. But the terms Waidan and Neidan that we use nowadays to mean "external alchemy" and "internal alchemy" originally referred to the difference between the External Medicine and the Internal Medicine. In other words, both of them were originally Neidan terms.

[Procurator]

Daode, I know it's very hard to convince you... , but the difference is not between Waidan and Neidan: it is between "superior virtue" and "inferior virtue". Believe it or not, according to the Cantong qi, alchemy is the way of "inferior virtue".

 

Since you read Chinese, read very carefully sections 6 and 7 in the text you downloaded. Section 6 describes "superior virtue". Section 7 describes the difference between "superior" and "inferior" virtue. Then it continues with a description of "inferior virtue". And that description is about alchemy. (It is irrelevant whether it is about Waidan or Neidan.)

.

Thanks Fabrizio, i would be gladly convinced if statements is supported with reasoning. of course i believe you, but e.g, above you say "alchemy" is inferior way but omit saying why, and what is the superior one?

 

i will take your precious directive to heart, apply utmost care and post my reading of ss. 6, 7. tossing a brick in hopes to get hit by a jade in return.

[Procurator]

 

 

Anyone knows how many posts it takes to become an Immortal?

judging by yr avatar u already one and just messing with our heads here.