Critical issues in Taoist alchemy

[Guest allan]

 

 

It's not easy to talk about this. Anyway, the formal explanation is the difference between "superior virtue" and "inferior virtue", or between Internal Medicine and External Medicine. (This has fundamentally nothing to do with the difference between Neidan and Waidan.) The External Medicine is obtained through practice, which is a form of "doing" (youwei) and is the way of "inferior virtue". If everything goes well, it leads to the Internal Medicine, which is "non-doing" (wuwei) and is the way of "superior virtue".

 

The External Medicine is obtained by, ......, "a lot of hard work". The Internal Medicine fundamentally does not need any "work". It is inherently possessed by every human being. Thus, the Internal Medicine can be realized either through the Neidan practice (formally timed as "100 days, 10 months, 9 years"), or in just "one instant".

 

 

Superior virtue and inferior virtue

Non doing and doing

 

Round and square

For the pure and those not so

 

Both have to complete

The inside out and the outside in

 

 

 

Without utmost emptiness and assured stillness

How to find the space between Heaven and Earth?

 

Without yang fire and yuan qi

How to cook the medicine?

[Guest allan]

Double post

Edited April 10, 2011 by allan

[Procurator]

 

 

 

There is another explanation: Fire (7), Wood (8), and Metal (9) return to the 1 of Water, but since Water (6) has 1 as its own "generation number", it does not need to return to it, and thus it "remains".

see? u list them in random order, but these are not mental constructs that can just up and return. the text lists them in consecutively decreasing order since these are objects and posses inertia so they have to be cycled back thru orderly stages. besides there is no 1 listed, and 6 is not 1:)).

[Procurator]

Superior virtue and inferior virtue

Non doing and doing

 

dear allan, reading shang de and xia de in "Can Tong" as superior and inferior is erroneous:)).just thought to let you know.

[Guest allan]

dear allan, reading shang de and xia de in "Can Tong" as superior and inferior is erroneous:)).just thought to let you know.

 

What was written is line with what Liu I Ming indicated, and not from the 'Can Tong'. Thought you would like to know too.

[Procurator]

[Guest allan]

he got that wrong, he got something right to be sure, unfortunately he did not lead by example, as they say.

 

明两知窍章第七

Elucidation of doubly managing cavities

 

上德无为，不以察求。下德为之，其用不休。

De on top does not act - does not think. At bottom De acts on it - its production is endless.

 

Superior virtue and inferior virtue

Non doing and doing

 

Round and square

For the pure and those not so

 

Both have to complete

The inside out and the outside in

 

 

 

 

Superior virtue = non doing, and inferior virtue = doing. (Not much different from the 'cantong,' and similar to the TTC.)

 

The pure starts with the round while those not so start with the square. But over time, both have to complete the round and the square, according to Liu I Ming.

 

'The inside out and the outside in' and the rest come from my own understanding of neidan studies and practice.

[tccii]

Never say this in front of a group of scholars!

 

 

 

Would they really find that concept offensive?

 

 

More or less. It's one of the most difficult fields to study. Many scholars are doing an excellent work in this area, either historically or in the present day. I think you should not discount it, even if you are interested in other aspects of Taoism.

 

I agree with you, the "Taoism is a Religion" group does great work. The fact that some of them consider it a religion in its "numinous" aspects somewhat moderates their otherwise tiresome use of "Daoistic, and proto-Daoist" And, of course, religious Taoism is another "path to the mountain top."

[Procurator]

 

 

Round and square

For the pure and those not so

 

 

The pure starts with the round while those not so start with the square. But over time, both have to complete the round and the square, according to Liu I Ming.

 

'The inside out and the outside in' and the rest come from my own understanding of neidan studies and practice.

thanks for giving us a glimpse of your understanding. as to Liu, it just shows that he misread the text rather severely, there is no "square" there 方圆 just means a "diameter" e.g. 4.这个湖方圆一里,宽半里

http://www.chinese-tools.com/tools/chinese-dictionary.html

[tccii]

tcii, this is about the second point in your earlier post...

 

 

It's not easy to talk about this. Anyway, the formal explanation is the difference between "superior virtue" and "inferior virtue", or between Internal Medicine and External Medicine. (This has fundamentally nothing to do with the difference between Neidan and Waidan.) The External Medicine is obtained through practice, which is a form of "doing" (youwei) and is the way of "inferior virtue". If everything goes well, it leads to the Internal Medicine, which is "non-doing" (wuwei) and is the way of "superior virtue".

 

The External Medicine is obtained, as you say, by "a lot of hard work". The Internal Medicine fundamentally does not need any "work". It is inherently possessed by every human being. Thus, the Internal Medicine can be realized either through the Neidan practice (formally timed as "100 days, 10 months, 9 years"), or in just "one instant".

 

This is, approximately, the explanation given by some Neidan masters, at least by those who talk about it.

 

 

 

The way you have stated it is somewhat problematic based on my understanding. I would not position "De" (Virtue) and "Yao" (Medicine) as directly related as you seem to imply in your statement... but I am not certain the details of the Yao should be discussed at this time.

 

However, what we are discussing is the very heart of the Taoist cultivation "Dao" (Way). We spend a good portion of the time on this very topic in our three day introductory Alchemy course and only begin to scratch the surface. I don't know if I can do it justice here:

 

As I indicated in my earlier post, and undoubtedly you are familiar with this, there are two major lines of Taoist cultivation. The two basic approaches in each of these lines differ. They are called Dao Gong (Cultivating Dao) and Xian Gong (Cultivating Immortality). The "source" of these two approaches is credited to Chapter Three in the Dao De Jing: "The Sage empties the heart and fills the belly."

 

How do you you Cultivate Dao? Empty the Heart

How do you Cultivate Immortality? Fill the Belly

 

Which path should those who aspire to perfection choose?

Those of Superior Virtue can go directly to the Dao. They simply empty the heart.

What about those of Inferior Virtue? They have a method as well. They can fill the belly.

 

So Superior Virtue and Inferior Virtue refer the aspirant's aptitude.

 

Wu Wei and You Wei refer to the two the major methods (Fa) of cultivation. They are not, as is sometimes thought, related to the amount of "work" required of the cultivator.

 

What does "Fill the Belly" mean? It refers to 1) Build the foundation 2) Transmute Jing to Qi and 3) Transmute Qi to Shen. The cultivation method here is "You Wei". It involves work, Gong.

 

What does "Empty the Heart" mean? It refers to Realizing Tao. Because Tao is not something separate from you (if it were it would not be Tao!) all you have to do is realize it and you are done. When you do realize it, it happens instantly! But practically speaking, how do you empty the heart and thereby realize Tao? The masters will tell you it is as easy as dropping a heavy load. But really, who can just do it? Who can really empty their heart in, well, a heartbeat? That is why even those of Superior Virtue have a cultivation method: "Wu Wei"

 

One of the common misconceptions is that "Do nothing" does not involve work. Unfortunately it does.

Edited April 11, 2011 by tccii

[xuanying]

see? u list them in random order, but these are not mental constructs that can just up and return. the text lists them in consecutively decreasing order since these are objects and posses inertia so they have to be cycled back thru orderly stages. besides there is no 1 listed, and 6 is not 1:)).

You are right, I listed them in this order just because I thought it was easier to follow the sequence. The correct order (in the Cantong qi passage) is "the 9 reverts, the 7 returns, the 8 goes back, the 6 remains".

 

This passage uses the "generation" and "accomplishment" numbers of the five agents (of four of the five agents, actually). The "accomplishment" numbers are obtained by adding 5 to the "generation" numbers":

 

1 and 6 for Water, 2 and 7 for Fire, 3 and 8 for Wood, and 4 and 9 for Metal

 

The birth of life (of each individual life) happens through a return to Water, the first agent in the "cosmogonic sequence". Therefore each agent, as it is, must return to the Unity of Water (1). So, Fire (7), Wood (8), and Metal (9) respectively "revert" "return" and "go back" to 1. Water (6), however, possesses 1 as its own "generation number". Therefore it "remains".

 

(This explanation is not my own invention.)

[xuanying]

What was written is line with what Liu I Ming indicated, and not from the 'Can Tong'. Thought you would like to know too.

allan, were you actually quoting Liu Yiming? If so, which work?

[xuanying]

[Procurator]

 

 

(This explanation is not my own invention.)

 

Of course! Thanks for the explanation, that is why i will not belabor the points i make, i am here to enjoy the discussion not to bore the heck out of ppl:lol:

 

so coming back to ND/WD dichotomy for a moment:

 

in the west, the initial perception of western alchemy by the outsiders was that it is an art of making gold out of base metals. Then, in mid-20th Carl Gustav Jung plagiarizing and building on the insights made by his precursors in the mid-19th century demonstrated that the early fundamental texts of the western alchemy were in fact referring to internal alchemy and NOT to chemical one, and reading them as chemical is erroneous.

 

exactly same misconception still prevails in sinology in regard to CTQ .

 

i was intrigued by a section on spatula let me post a translation in a little while.

[Procurator]

[Guest allan]

allan, were you actually quoting Liu Yiming? If so, which work?

 

Under the Arcana sections of I Ching Mandalas translated by Thomas Cleary, there are a series of essays by Liu I Ming. The concepts of round and square, non doing and doing, and the tie up to the Book of Changes are discussed on pages 97 and 98 of the book.

[xuanying]

[xuanying]

This passage like all the others is completely misunderstood; to understand it one first need to look at the very clear core sentence

Discussions of the Daode jing will never end...

 

I always thought that in this passage there is a break after the sixth sentence (上德不德，是以有德；下德不失德，是以無德。上德無為而無以為；下德為之而有以為。) This first part says, more or less:

 

"Superior virtue is not virtuous, therefore it has virtue. Inferior virtue does not stray from virtue, therefore it has no virtue. Superior virtue has no doing: there is nothing whereby it does. Inferior virtue does: there is something whereby it does."

 

Then it continues with a description of inferior virtue. It's an ongoing fall after the initial loss of the Dao: humanity, righteousness, and rites -- three cardinal Confucian "virtues", but one worse of the other, according to the Daode jing, because that are based on "doing". I agree with you when you say that this is "very clearly a description of a disintegration of the state when the Dao is lost".

 

So this is a decription of what happens when rulers do not act with their De BECAUSE THEY LOST IT and do not have it anymore, their De is not a real De 德不德, and so here wu-wei is not automatically a good thing.

Here I cannot follow you (if I understand correctly what you say). How is it possible that the Daode jing, where non-doing is the only true "virtue", can say that the ruler's non-doing "is not automatically a good thing"? The art of rulership is the main application of its own doctrines described in the Daode jing!

 

but coming back to CTQ: lets assume there are two De, whats the upper and whats the lower? is lower the laboratory alchemy? how that squares with Ge Hong statements that laboratory alchemy (WD) is the Highest Way?

New topic for discussion! For the Cantong qi any form of alchemy is "inferior virtue", because it is a form of "doing". However, alchemy is the only form of practice that the Cantong qi accepts, as it is the only one that can realize the unity of Qian and Kun. "Superior virtue" is just what it is in the Daode jing: "non-doing". In fact, the sections of the Cantong qi that discuss "superior virtue" contain several sentences and terms quoted from the Daode jing and the Zhuangzi.

 

--

 

Addition: "how that squares with Ge Hong statements that laboratory alchemy (WD) is the Highest Way?" -- Because laboratory alchemy was the only form of alchemy that Ge Hong knew. He did not know the Cantong qi, and he did not know Neidan. -- In fact, he said that there are two "highest ways": Waidan, and meditation on the inner gods.

Edited April 12, 2011 by xuanying

[Procurator]

 

 

Here I cannot follow you (if I understand correctly what you say). How is it possible that the Daode jing, where non-doing is the only true "virtue",

it is possible because what i bolded out above is an assumption both simplistic and artificial. its a western premise based on collective circular thinking and myths about "philosophical taoism" dating back from 17th century.

 

but in fact, the only true virtue is DE, non-doing is just a resulting application of it. If u just dont act without possessing De which is a magical all-pervading power of a ruler, what u will get? nothing.

 

lets reread the original

 

when 上德不德，the ruler's De is not real De ..... then 上德無為而無以為；rulers De does not act and nothing is acted on by it....then instead of De - humanness, instead of that - duty etc.

 

you agree that the middle section is describing the loss of Dao, but don't make the next logical step- recognize that the middle sentence is conclusion based on the first one. Too many assumptions are at risk!)

Edited April 12, 2011 by Daode

[Procurator]

 

 

New topic for discussion! For the Cantong qi any form of alchemy is "inferior virtue", because it is a form of "doing". However, alchemy is the only form of practice that the Cantong qi accepts, as it is the only one that can realize the unity of Qian and Kun. "Superior virtue" is just what it is in the Daode jing: "non-doing". In fact, the sections of the Cantong qi that discuss "superior virtue" contain several sentences and terms quoted from the Daode jing and the Zhuangzi.

aha...so now besides being a text on WD originally, CTQ is ALSO a text on "non-doing". Interesting.

 

could you please list those sections besides 6 and 7?

--

Addition: "how that squares with Ge Hong statements that laboratory alchemy (WD) is the Highest Way?" -- Because laboratory alchemy was the only form of alchemy that Ge Hong knew. He did not know the Cantong qi, and he did not know Neidan. -- In fact, he said that there are two "highest ways": Waidan, and meditation on the inner gods.

so to summarise: a) there is a huge literature on WD so we know that WD exsisted there is a huge literature on ND so ditto. c) based on just 2 enigmatic texts we posit that there was another form of personal(?) practice called "non-doing".

 

hmm....

[tccii]

Thanks for your reply, you provide many important details on this question.

 

Let me add that when I equated Superior and Inferior Virtue respectively with the Internal and the External Medicines, I had in mind a passage by Li Daochun (ca. 1290), who is very clear on this point (and many others). If you have Cleary's "Book of Balance and Harmony", it's on pages 21-23.

 

 

The terms Superior Virtue (SV) and Inferior Virtue (IV) have. as do most other Alchemical terms, multi-variant meanings depending upon the context. Previously, we were talking about "Instant Realization " as it relates to Wu Wei and You Wei. SV and IV have a specific meaning here as it relates to Xian Gong and Dao Gong.

 

When you take SV and IV in this context, we are talking about the Virgin Body (Tong Zi) in contrast to the broken body, as your sources point out. The key point is that in this context is that we are still using the terms to discuss the methods of Xian Gong.

 

 

...

Then Li Daochun describes all three stages of the Neidan practice as belonging to the External Medicine. For him, the Internal Medicine is something different. He says:

 

"The Internal Medicine is the essential of refining Spirit. Form and Spirit (Cleary: "body and mind") are both wondrous, and one joins one's truth with the truth of the Dao."

 

This comes after the third stage, which Li Daochun calls "refining Spirit and reverting to Emptiness".

 

The most detailed description that I know about all this is by Liu Yiming. It's quoted by Wang Mu in "Foundations", page 18. If you don't have the book, see here. (Wang Mu omits a few sentences, but quotes the essential.)

 

 

Wai Yao and Nei Yao are only two of the "Yao"s. There are others.

 

Also, there can be some variation in the exact usage of terminology between schools. This point, combined with the fact that the entire process was never (to my knowledge at least) completely written down in detail makes it quite challenging to assemble a complete method from purely textual sources.

 

 

 

It seems practically impossible to say exactly where the third stage ends and "non-doing" begins.

 

 

Yes and no. There are clear indicators. That does not mean they cannot be missed in practice.

 

 

In fact, the whole practice is described as a preparation to exit the practice and enter "non-doing".

 

 

I would say it differently. The whole of the Xian Gong practice is a preparation to the exit the practice and enter the practice of Dao Gong.

 

 

What does "non-doing" mean to you?

 

 

 

 

 

[xuanying]

it is possible because what i bolded out above is an assumption both simplistic and artificial. its a western premise based on collective circular thinking and myths about "philosophical taoism" dating back from 17th century.

Daode, everything is possible with regard to the Daode jing, and its explanations and interpretations will never end.

 

This said, here is what the Daode jing itself says about the requirement that the ruler follows "wuwei" (non-doing, non-action):

 

The Dao constantly does nothing,

yet there is nothing that is not done.

If marquises and kings can keep to this,

the ten thousand things transform themselves of their own.

(Section 37)

[xuanying]

aha...so now besides being a text on WD originally, CTQ is ALSO a text on "non-doing". Interesting.

One of the most common explanations of the title of the Cantong qi is that can 參 means san 三, "three". These "three" are defined in slightly different ways, but correspond (in English) to: Cosmology (including, first of all, the relation of the cosmos to the Dao, and then its functioning); Taoism (the ideal of "wuwei", non-doing); Alchemy (no problem now whether it's Waidan or Neidan). Commentators who give this explanation include those who interpret the Cantong qi as a text entirely concerned with Neidan. The first one was Yu Yan, who wrote his commentary in 1284.

 

could you please list those sections besides 6 and 7?

Please wait until my book is published. It's almost finished.

 

so to summarise: a) there is a huge literature on WD so we know that WD exsisted there is a huge literature on ND so ditto. c) based on just 2 enigmatic texts we posit that there was another form of personal(?) practice called "non-doing".

It's not "just 2 enigmatic texts" (if by this you mean the Daode jing and the Cantong qi). As the passages I have quoted in my previous posts show, for some Neidan masters this is an essential point. Others (including Wu Shouyang and Liu Huayang, whom you seem to follow) do not use this notion. This doesn't mean that Wu and Liu are worse, or the others are better. It's just a matter of using one or another "formulation". I find this one especially clarifying, but for many others it could be irrelevant. Everything is fine.

[xuanying]

tccii, once more I entirely agree with you. Just a few remarks:

 

Also, there can be some variation in the exact usage of terminology between schools. This point, combined with the fact that the entire process was never (to my knowledge at least) completely written down in detail makes it quite challenging to assemble a complete method from purely textual sources.

I completely agree with this as well. For me, reading (and maybe translating) a text is pure pleasure. At the same time, I find it helps to stick with what a tradition (in this case, Taoism or more particularly, Neidan) teaches, instead of fantasizing for one or another reason. (Note that by that "tradition" I mean the Chinese tradition, not its "interpreters" in the West.) It also helps to understand that, while the gist of a doctrine "has no history", its forms and formulations do have a history, because they happen in the so-called real world.

 

I would say it differently. The whole of the Xian Gong practice is a preparation to the exit the practice and enter the practice of Dao Gong.

Aren't we saying the same thing in different words?

 

What does "non-doing" mean to you?

The perfection of doing. So perfect and absolute that it has nothing to do with "doing" in the common sense of the word, and therefore does not even appear to be "doing". Yet it does everything that needs to be done.

 

 

PS. On one minor point actually I do disagree with you -- when you say "we are talking about the Virgin Body (Tong Zi)". What is the point of translating tongzi as "virgin body"? You may, if you find it useful, explain that tongzi connotes the "virgin body", but then you should explain what you mean by this expression, because this is not what tongzi means in Chinese. In other words, you should not give the impression that "virgin body" is a translation of tongzi. Tongzi just means "child" or "lad".

[xuanying]

Under the Arcana sections of I Ching Mandalas translated by Thomas Cleary, there are a series of essays by Liu I Ming. The concepts of round and square, non doing and doing, and the tie up to the Book of Changes are discussed on pages 97 and 98 of the book.

I don't have this book, and I was unable to find the quotation in Liu Yiming's commentary to the Book of Changes. If you happen to know the Chinese title of Liu Yiming's work (i.e., if Cleary mentions it -- usually he doesn't care) please post it here. Thanks!