Critical issues in Taoist alchemy

[Procurator]

As if in Taoism, or in Neidan, there is a "theory" that should be proved, and the "practice" is the proof.

 

 

yes there is. not just practice. results are the proof 证.

[gendao]

This is a key point. One of the things that can quickly alienate a traditional Chinese teacher is a student showing up expecting them to prove that what they teach is true. For many of them, they are not there to "prove" anything, but to transmit. It is expected that the student has already decided that they accept, for example, that it is possible to become a TianXian, and simply wants to know how.

 

Most of them do not, however, expect you to accept what they say on blind faith. They expect you to be committed and practice and thereby validate the method for yourself. There are levels of understanding which are based upon the students commitment/success in practice. Essentially, they expect you to practice and validate for yourself.

Well, usually the students also start out picking teachers who have already proven themselves at large to begin with. In fact, someone's reputed level or ability is usually what draws willing students to them to begin with, no?

[xuanying]

yes there is. not just practice. results are the proof 证.

I agree that the difference is subtle, but I understand zheng 证 as "attest, witness" rather than "prove".

 

Let me give you a stupid example of what I mean. Someone practices Neidan (or anything else) according to the teachings of Master XYZ. At some point, he/she experiences something that XYZ had taught.

 

Proof: "Ah, what Master XYZ said was true!"

Attestation: "Ah, this is what Master XYZ said!"

 

There is no question of proving that XYZ's "theory" was correct. It's only a matter of personally verifying XYZ's "teaching".

 

This is what I meant when I said that in Neidan (and Taoism, and other traditional doctrines) there is no place for "theory".

[Procurator]

I agree that the difference is subtle, but I understand zheng 证 as "attest, witness" rather than "prove".

 

Let me give you a example of what I mean.

 

interesting example, molto grazie, dottore.

 

hey, i have just read today in Hudson's thesis that according to your "Early History of Zhou-yi CTQ" 金碧经 is regarded as a precursor to CTQ.

 

is it available on the net? a precursor to such an early text is exciting!

[xuanying]

I will if i may.

 

indeed in daoism the theory is just instruction for the practice, so they are inseparable parts of doctrine. And in that regard, there is indeed no "theory" vs practice dichotomy.

 

however when we ask about theory vs practice what we really mean is empty, scholastic talk vs practical, proven results.

 

and that dichotomy is very much present in daoism. the texts dont mince words here: 愚 foolishnes vs 证 proof.

Well, in Neidan there is a lot talk about 愚 "foolishness", but the "fools" in general are those who devote themselves to other practices, not just those who do not have 证 "proof".

 

Anyway, more importantly, it seems to me that the issue is not only, as you say, "scholastic talk vs practical, proven results". If you look carefully, most Neidan texts are "scholastic talk", including (for example, and with no criticism) those of your "ancestral masters" Wu Shouyang and Liu Huayang, who obviously had "proven results".

 

Certainly the main points are not found in texts, and everybody knows this. But it seems to me that you should allow for broader definition of "talk" and of "results". I mean, results essentially affect the same core point of one's being, but manifest themselves in different ways, according to one's individuality. Once results are attained, some people may like to "talk", but then their "talk" is not necessarily scholastic in the negative sense of the term. If they choose to "talk", it essentially has to do with their Ming 命.

 

How many Zhuangzi's have existed in China? Really many, for sure. But we will never know them, only because they didn't write a book. We know Zhuangzi just because he liked to write, he mastered writing, and he "talked" through his writing on the basis of his "results". That was his Ming 命.

[xuanying]

hey, i have just read today in Hudson's thesis that according to your "Early History of Zhou-yi CTQ" 金碧经 is regarded as a precursor to CTQ.

 

is it available on the net? a precursor to such an early text is exciting!

1. Jindan jinbi qiantong jue 金丹金碧潛通訣 (Instructions on Gold and Jade for Piercing the Unseen by the Golden Elixir), in Yunji qiqian 雲笈七籤, chapter 73. You can find it here and in many other websites.

 

2. Longhu jing 龍虎經 (Book of the Dragon and Tiger). There are two editions of this text in the Taoist Canon, with two different commentaries. You can read them here and here.

 

Edited April 18, 2011 by xuanying

[宁]

Little1, thanks for raising this issue. I always found it curious that in the West we have this idea of theory vs. practice. As if in Taoism, or in Neidan, there is a "theory" that should be proved, and the "practice" is the proof.

 

The theory/practice issue is a thoroughly Western idea. A theory needs to be proved, and if the practice does not prove the theory, then the theory is changed. This is, very roughly, how Western sciences function.

 

This idea of "theory" is not a concern at all in Taoism -- in fact, the concept of "theory" does not even seem to exist. Now that it's possible to search almost the whole Taoist Canon (at www.ctcwri.idv.tw), I tried some time ago to search for lilun 理論, the Chinese word for "theory". I was surprised to see that this word appears only 15 times or so in the Canon. And when it does appear, it does not mean "theory", but "discourse (or essay) on the principles".

 

The closest word to "theory" in Taoism seems to be jiao 教, "teaching" or "doctrine". And certainly there can't be any "teaching/doctrine vs. practice" issue. In fact, the Taoist perspective is the opposite of the Western perspective: what is subject to change is not the doctrine, but the "practice".

 

Is there anyone who can comment on this, and help me clarify my views?

 

Thanks!

I think you guys could start an entire discussion on that aspect too (which you seem to have already done), my background (allows me to comprehend some of your ideas, however i'm not qualified to make educated interventions.

 

 

@tccii,

 

as you said, the Foundation practice would be the most approach-able subject for a beginner (please bare in mind that there are here many that have a +10 years of practical experience with the daoist, or better said, Chinese health and meditation arts, and still consider themselves, based on their experience and modest achievemets, as being mere beginners, such is my case also).

as @Daode sharply pointed out, there is a major difference between 愚 'foolishness' vs 证 'proof', and some of us feel they still are at the 愚 stage of their development. as such, if any of you would consider discussing in more detail (not necessarely technical), about the theory/reasoning of the Foundation practices, and their mechanism, i suppose it would really be helpful for us taobums

 

Thanks!

 

L1

Edited April 17, 2011 by Little1

[Procurator]

if any of you would consider discussing in more detail (not necessarely technical), about the theory/reasoning of the Foundation practices, and their mechanism, i suppose it would really be helpful for us taobums

 

Thanks!

 

L1

this article talks about foundation, granted, the english is a bit awkward but nevertheless.

 

http://all-dao.com/methods.html

[tccii]

 

@tccii,

 

as you said, the Foundation practice would be the most approach-able subject for a beginner (please bare in mind that there are here many that have a +10 years of practical experience with the daoist, or better said, Chinese health and meditation arts, and still consider themselves, based on their experience and modest achievemets, as being mere beginners, such is my case also).

 

 

Actually, I made no assumption about the level of experience of those reading this topic. The Foundation practices are where most everyone new to Nei Dan will start. Having prior experience with meditative and movement arts, as well as language skills are all very useful.

 

If you are simply interested in learning about the general principles of this stage, you might take a look at Fabrizio's translation of Wang Mu. It provides a rather detailed discussion of the principles and terminology. Although the texts in question are from Nan Pai, other schools will use them as well.

Edited April 15, 2011 by tccii

[The Way Is Virtue]

umm..by lineage its usually meant the actual names of teachers. (just a note).

 

Hi Daode. I would be interested to hear some details about your specific lineage and teacher's name as well. Can you provide some details regarding 'the teacher of single yang'? I believe there are references on your website to a book written by this teacher (the lineage holder?) of your school? What is the name of his/her book? Does your group offer any workshops or ongoing classes in North America as of yet? I could not find this info on your website.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Nan Pai, Bei Pai, Yin Xian Pai... and parts of a few others.

 

Hi tccii. Can you provide any details about who your teachers of these traditions are and maybe a little about them? Is this info on your website?

[Guest allan]

well, Allan tried to prove that Liu's understanding of 方圆 in CTQ as "round and square" is correct since it is allegedly represents Heaven and Earth atributes derived from Yi-jing. To that end he pointed out that 方 comes from Kun section of Yi-Jing, which indeed contains that word.

 

However, by that logic 圆 should have come from Qian section of Yi-jing. But since there is no 圆 in Qian, then this logic is incorrect.

 

Yi-jing is not the source for this expression.

 

 

 

that is it, just musing aloud, no issues.)

 

Using logic to study or understand the profound Yijing will not take us far. Deep pondering is necessary.

 

The Round is there. Find it out for yourself. (I have already provided hints.)

[Procurator]

Hi Daode. I would be interested to hear some details about your specific lineage and teacher's name as well.

sure, the senior teacher is Mr. Dmitri A. Artemiev, we refer to him as DA, he is an academically trained sinologst with a degree in Chinese Studies. Naturally he is fluent in chinese, knows China inside out. He is an indoor student of the Single Yang patriarch. His contact details are available on the web page.

 

Can you provide some details regarding 'the teacher of single yang'?

not personal details, i never met him and frankly i am not in a hurry to. access to him is restricted, details are confidential.once i asked DA what is the teacher like and he said "he is around 70 now, when he is sitting next to young persons, he looks younger than any of them" . there are workshops with his participation but again the access is limited to senior students.

 

I believe there are references on your website to a book written by this teacher (the lineage holder?) of your school? What is the name of his/her book?

yes there are. although i have translated large parts of that book from chinese, i dont know its exact title. everything that involves the patriarch's personal details in on need-to-know basis.

 

 

Does your group offer any workshops or ongoing classes in North America as of yet? I could not find this info on your website.

its because there is none and i dont expect any over the next 10 years.

 

there are no books or dvds or online video courses. probation period for becoming an indoor student is 1 year. teaching is personal and in class. fees are reasonable but mandatory. indoor students are expected to participate in trips to China and retreats at least twice a year.

 

beguinners courses on martial arts, qigong and first stage of neidan are open for general public but further progress is for indoor students only.

[The Way Is Virtue]

sure, the senior teacher is Mr. Dmitri A. Artemiev, we refer to him as DA, he is an academically trained sinologst with a degree in Chinese Studies. Naturally he is fluent in chinese, knows China inside out. He is an indoor student of the Single Yang patriarch. His contact details are available on the web page.

...

 

Hi Daode. Thanks for the details on your group.

[Procurator]

 

 

(I think I should leave this forum. Little by little I'm posting here my whole book on the Cantong qi )

its gonna be a bestseller i am sure; we can change the subject too.

[xuanying]

its gonna be a bestseller i am sure; we can change the subject too.

???

[宁]

this article talks about foundation, granted, the english is a bit awkward but nevertheless.

 

http://all-dao.com/methods.html

 

i had an old friend on this forum, by the name of procurator, all of these remind me of him.

he talked abit about the wu-liu pai. unless i'm mistaken, the probation period for the indoor student included that the he'd study and translate chinese texts related to alchemy.

thanks for the link!

[Procurator]

???

i meant we can talk about something else besides CTQ

[xuanying]

i meant we can talk about something else besides CTQ

Ah sure.

[tccii]

Hi tccii. Can you provide any details about who your teachers of these traditions are and maybe a little about them? Is this info on your website?

 

Since you asked so nicely, how could I refuse!

 

Following is partial list of our Chinese teachers.

 

http://silenttao.com...chers-in-china/

 

They have all made important contributions in some way but in terms Taoism and Nei Dan, the following are most relevant to your question:

 

Li Laoshi: Technically from the southern Zhong-Lu school, he was also a synthesizer and a scholar. His knowledge was encyclopedic. He answered a lot of questions and filled in a lot of holes. His teaching is the probably the most significant influence on our cultivation.

 

He Laoshi: Longmen and Taijimen (a secretive Taoist sect,not to be confused with some modern groups that use that appellation). An iconoclast, despite being the abbot of a Taoist temple, he prided himself on never having worn Taoist robes. His use of Qigong for healing and foundation building was a strong influence on our teaching. He organized and explained the principles of using Qigong for healing very thoroughly and systematically.

 

Chen Laoshi: Wudang Longmen (a branch of the Northern Quanzhen School) He taught a great number of classical Qigong forms, but we had greatest affinity with the Taiyi Qigong material. He taught a system of Nei Dan that most closely resembles Zhao Bi Chen's system.

Edited April 16, 2011 by tccii

[The Way Is Virtue]

Since you asked so nicely, how could I refuse!

Following is partial list of our Chinese teachers.

http://silenttao.com...chers-in-china/

They have all made important contributions in some way but in terms Taoism and Nei Dan, the following are most relevant to your question:

 

Hi tccii. Thanks for the info and link regarding your various teachers.

Best wishes...

[xuanying]

Just wanted to add that my translation of the Cantong qi has finally been published:

 

Fabrizio Pregadio

The Seal of the Unity of the Three:

A Study and Translation of the Cantong qi,

the Source of the Taoist Way of the Golden Elixir

Golden Elixir Press, 2011

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/press/trl_02_ctq.html

[tccii]

We have recently published a review of Fabrizio Pregadio's new book on the Can Tong Qi along with an interview of him in our paper:

 

Interpreting the Ancient Codes

Exploring the Classics of Taoist Alchemy

An Introduction to the Zhou Yi Can Tong Qi

TCCII Publications, 2012

Contents

1) Introduction

2) Interview with Fabrizio Pregadio (see this topic for an excerpt)

3) Book Review of the Can Tong Qi (see this topic for an excerpt)

4) Essay on Interpreting the Ancient Codes

5) Resources for Further Study

Interpreting the Ancient Codes paper is available as a

free PDF download from TCCII.

Edited January 5, 2012 by tccii

[phoenix_darshan]

If anybody is interested to read some excerpts about da cheng jie yao 大成捷要 (an untranslated alchemical text) they can find the first couple of chapter translated into english on:

http://fiveimmortals.com/the-essentials-of-the-shortcut-to-the-great-achievement/

 

It is a good read intersersed with additional comments by a Daoist priest to explicate the texts metaphorical meaning

 

Enjoy