Tai Chi Masters Push Hands Comp 1992

[Stigweard]

This is a push hands competition from 1992 showing some of the biggest names in mainland taiji all competing against one another. They are all grandmasters.

First bout: Li En-jiu vs. unknown. Li is a Chen stylist that studied under Hong Jun-sheng.

Second: Wei Shu-ren vs. Men hui-feng. Wei is a Yang stylist known for advocating the "no force" perspective. Men is THE top wushu teacher in China , a leading proponent of wushu taiji, practices everything under the sun, and was awarded the first 10 duan rank by the Chinese government. Yes I know, no one's ever heard of him. He's unknown in the West.

Third bout: Li Bing-ci vs. Lin Mo-gen. Li is a Wu stylist. Lin was a top student of Li Ya-xuan (a disciple of YCF).

Fourth bout: Liu Cheng-de vs. unknown. Liu is a Chen stylist again from the Hong lineage and is in one of my favorite push hands clips.

Fifth bout: Xin Yu-he vs. Men Hui-feng. I know nothing about Xin. Maybe someone can fill me in.

http://www.youtube.com/user/internalsearcher#p/a/u/2/NEeBTKdoeD0

[Machin Shin]

[lazy cloud]

I am a little surprised at some of the footwork.

[Stigweard]

 

Wouldn't that just tear a hole in your knickers!

 

[Wells]

Funny that the first match begins with Tai Chi...and ends as a scuffle as you would expect to see in kindergarten. I guess they switched to the more effective technique at last... If the match would have lasted longer, maybe hair-pulling would have been the final solution!

[zerostao]

http://www.youtube.com/user/baguamaweiqi

[doc benway]

It's funny how lot's of much less credible and less experienced "masters" of Taijiquan love to publish demos of their superhuman skills but these "grandmasters" look just like me and my mates when we push...

 

Where's the magic?

[Aaron]

Hello folks,

 

I haven't practiced martial arts much, but I can tell you that the bout that amazed me was on the first video, the second to the last. If you watch the man in green, his balance is nothing short of phenomenal. He barely struggles, keeps his footing without stress and his movements are so fluid, if you can't compare that to water, I'm not sure what you can. For me that's the magic. Also keep in mind this is a push hands competition, so there wont be any kicks or punches, really it's more like wrestling, so comparing it to you and your friends wrestling may be accurate, but I'm positive if any of us got in that circle, we wouldn't have remained standing past the first few seconds.

 

Anyways, thanks for sharing the video, I've actually developed a good deal of respect for Tai Chi after watching this.

 

Aaron

[Sloppy Zhang]

Funny that the first match begins with Tai Chi...and ends as a scuffle as you would expect to see in kindergarten. I guess they switched to the more effective technique at last... If the match would have lasted longer, maybe hair-pulling would have been the final solution!

 

I really, really wanted someone to do a judo throw all of a sudden, and just slam the other guy.

 

 

I love tai chi, and as much as I love meditation and qigong, when it comes to martial arts, I like stuff that's going to work in an all out confrontation. Push hands is a nice exercise and all, but as far as competition.... well, I dunno, to me, it seems like push hands was always a way to start upping your skills and getting ready for real encounters, but I just don't see many tai chi people working up to increasing levels of mobility and intensity. But maybe I just missed something....

Edited April 9, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Stigweard]

It's funny how lot's of much less credible and less experienced "masters" of Taijiquan love to publish demos of their superhuman skills but these "grandmasters" look just like me and my mates when we push...

 

Where's the magic?

I'm with you on that one my friend

[Stigweard]

I really, really wanted someone to do a judo throw all of a sudden, and just slam the other guy.

 

 

I love tai chi, and as much as I love meditation and qigong, when it comes to martial arts, I like stuff that's going to work in an all out confrontation. Push hands is a nice exercise and all, but as far as competition.... well, I dunno, to me, it seems like push hands was always a way to start upping your skills and getting ready for real encounters, but I just don't see many tai chi people working up to increasing levels of mobility and intensity. But maybe I just missed something....

Nope you haven't missed a thing IMO. Playing Tui Shou is about learning a certain skill set on the way to all-out combat -- adhering, listening, yielding, following, leading, severing the root, issuing force etc.

 

Unfortunately many practitioners see it as the be-all-and-end-all of martial arts ... it's not. It's just a training drill. But hey what do I know, I'm just a stupid knob from Australia.

 

[Stigweard]

[mYTHmAKER]

 

looks like wrestling

[Wells]

looks like wrestling

I thought the same.

It looks simply like the faster and stronger guy wins.

[Immortal4life]

Chen Village Push Hands competition-

 

 

Tai Chi Push Hands Tricks-

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3308028374750317361#

 

More Chen Village-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNXnxCpjUNM

 

Chen Bing-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWBBhVLbDgk

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

[doc benway]

Nice clip - a little touch of Shuai Jiao here and there but the teacher is demonstrating some very nice pushing hands techniques. It would be nice to see him against someone more skillful - he is way out of any of the students' league.

[doc benway]

It looks simply like the faster and stronger guy wins.

Not at all - the teacher is just way beyond the students' skill level. Alot of the Chinese and Taiwanese players mix some Shuai Jiao in with Tui Shou in competition. This is just how they (we) practice. If you ever compete internationally - you need to be prepared for this.

[Sloppy Zhang]

looks like wrestling

 

Given that I haven't had access to an in person teacher, my understanding of the sensitivity as typically taught in tai chi suddenly skyrocketed after working out with some Brazilian Jujutsu guys. All out wrestling, in my personal opinion, is a step up from push hands, as you are going full force but are still in contact with the other person. Throw in strikes, allow movement away from the opponent, and start them off separately, and you've stepped up once more into full contact sparring, which is where I think martial arts tai chi training should go.

[mYTHmAKER]

Given that I haven't had access to an in person teacher, my understanding of the sensitivity as typically taught in tai chi suddenly skyrocketed after working out with some Brazilian Jujutsu guys. All out wrestling, in my personal opinion, is a step up from push hands, as you are going full force but are still in contact with the other person. Throw in strikes, allow movement away from the opponent, and start them off separately, and you've stepped up once more into full contact sparring, which is where I think martial arts tai chi training should go.

 

Push hands training is sensitivity training on the way to free form fighting.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Push hands training is sensitivity training on the way to free form fighting.

 

Yeah, all I'm saying, though, is that not a lot of people (that you see publicly during demonstrations, live or on youtube) ever really get to that point.

 

Which is why I think if you see really aggressive push hands, it almost looks like wrestling- since it's sensitivity training, your opponent is resisting, but you still aren't using striking techniques.

 

I think it'd be awesome for these guys doing really intense push hands to branch out, allow strikes, and start off from a position of non-contact, basically, do some rounds of free fighting.

[Andrei]

I think it'd be awesome for these guys doing really intense push hands to branch out, allow strikes, and start off from a position of non-contact, basically, do some rounds of free fighting.

 

Then it's not tui shou it's san shou.

 

 

 

[Stigweard]

Yeah, all I'm saying, though, is that not a lot of people (that you see publicly during demonstrations, live or on youtube) ever really get to that point.

 

Which is why I think if you see really aggressive push hands, it almost looks like wrestling- since it's sensitivity training, your opponent is resisting, but you still aren't using striking techniques.

 

I think it'd be awesome for these guys doing really intense push hands to branch out, allow strikes, and start off from a position of non-contact, basically, do some rounds of free fighting.

Yup I agree with you here, except for the non-contact bit. Right from the start you have to have contact in my opinion. Contact training cuts the crap real quick. If you start with non-contact you can acquire unrealistic ideas and habits that have no practical use when you get to contact training or combat.

 

Start with being pushed and struck (in a safe way mind you), learn the natural responses of the body, learn how to adapt and protect yourself, then let your own applications and attacks naturally evolve out of this. And when being struck you have to work from the worst case scenario back up to best case scenario. By this I mean you have to first look at how the body reacts to a push-punch (i.e. pushing the opponent's body with the fists but not actually impact striking ... yet), drill it over and over again. This also teaches the push-puncher the right locations and directions to cause the most disruption to the opponent's core, which is the main point.

 

This is more like "push bodies" instead of "push hands".

 

Then when you and your partner are comfortable with push-striking, up the intensity and allow impact striking to come in. Again work from the worst case scenario of, "Oh f**k I am copping a hit," incrementally back up to where you might see the strike coming and can do something about it before it hits the core of the body.

 

Combine this sort of training with all your Tui Shou and Shuai Jiao and you are developing a good foundation for combat. Oh and don't forget about doing all this sort of training on the ground as well. Most fights on the street end up there.

 

Just on another note, I personally dislike the whole push the opponent away silliness that you see in most Tui Shou. That is just a stupid tactic in real combat in my not so humble opinion. If I have gone to all the trouble of breaking your root and floating your qi, the last thing I want to do is give you a chance to recover or, even worse, pull out a weapon. I want you at my feet with my knee in your face, I want you controlled and incapacitated and I have no hope of doing this if my techniques land you 10ft away from me.

 

[aridus]

Excellent stuff. Some don't see the value, and are confused by form (or lack thereof) but for me, form is organizing your tool box. With a good tool box, you take out what you need at the right time, and use it, without having to "organize it" (stick strictly to form) first.

 

Practices have saved my life more than once, because my body was trained to react. In one case, when I used to work in construction, a 10 foot piece of angle iron that was being hauled up a scaffold slipped and fell straight for me. The thing weighed almost as much as me and was coming straight for my head, but I was not only able to deflect it, but stayed upright without severe injury. I got the angle just right so that I did not receive much of the force at all, only enough to save me. Was not seriously injured at all, only a bruise and scrape on my arm. That's good for deflecting a huge piece of iron. It could have killed me.

[aridus]

Just on another note, I personally dislike the whole push the opponent away silliness that you see in most Tui Shou. That is just a stupid tactic in real combat in my not so humble opinion. If I have gone to all the trouble of breaking your root and floating your qi, the last thing I want to do is give you a chance to recover or, even worse, pull out a weapon. I want you at my feet with my knee in your face, I want you controlled and incapacitated and I have no hope of doing this if my techniques land you 10ft away from me.

 

Yeah. My rule has always been either commit and stick, or commit to getting the hell away and don't stop. Trying to do both is dangerous. I have not been in real fights except for only a couple times, but it's always been either stick and follow through everything, or get away. I've never thrown someone and not followed it, if I have your hands, I keep them and follow and don't allow them to be recovered to be used against me. If you are down I am right there on top.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yup I agree with you here, except for the non-contact bit. Right from the start you have to have contact in my opinion. Contact training cuts the crap real quick. If you start with non-contact you can acquire unrealistic ideas and habits that have no practical use when you get to contact training or combat.

 

Except that only training starting from contact is also unrealistic training, as it leaves out aspects of combat which do not start in being in contact. Consider styles like Muay Thai, which rely on striking. Consider your opponent might have a reach advantage on you. Perhaps you try to close in and grapple, but they do not like what it is you are trying to do, so they keep their distance and try to just punch the shit out of you. You've got to be able to stick, sense, and do your tai chi stuff to someone who won't commit with a full body lunge or grapple.

 

Which is why I think......

 

Then when you and your partner are comfortable with push-striking, up the intensity and allow impact striking to come in. Again work from the worst case scenario of, "Oh f**k I am copping a hit," incrementally back up to where you might see the strike coming and can do something about it before it hits the core of the body.

 

This is good stuff to do, and I agree with...

 

Combine this sort of training with all your Tui Shou and Shuai Jiao and you are developing a good foundation for combat. Oh and don't forget about doing all this sort of training on the ground as well. Most fights on the street end up there.

 

This point as well.