Eleven silly Taoist alchemical questions

[exorcist_1699]

Based on a book* written by a Ching-dynasty(1644-1911, AD)Taoist master, Fu JinChuan (付金銓),I summarize the following eleven questions in Taoist alchemy .If you find them silly ,then I have to say "yeah ", they are:

 

1) Taoist alchemy is said to be simple, or very simple. As Zhang BoTuan puts it : " Those who know the truth recognize how simple it is ; those who can't discern it , likely incline to make it as complicated as they can". But why so simple ?

 

2)It is said to be "just before our eyes" . Why?

 

3) Why say that Taoist alchemy is laughable ? Those who are stupid or smartest laugh at it . Those who are clever smile and ignore it . Is it due to its claim of attaining eternity , or because it emphasizes on using other sex's body?

 

4)Why say that it should be done at home, not on high mountains?

 

5)Why say that it must be succeeded through dual-cultivation, not solely by the effort of our mind or oneself?

 

6)Why say that those hazards will definitely arise in our practice? Any exceptions?

 

7) Why an " old yellow-faced female matchmaker" is needed ?

 

8)Why make use of the time is crucial? Why say that the flexible Zi time(活子時) is more important than the fixed Zi time ( 11:00pm~1:00am)?

 

9)It is said that real hermits live in public, hidden in mass , not in deep cave. Why ?

 

10)Why say that if not having our Te polished and upgraded,then there is no way of proceeding , or of laying the foundation?

 

11)why talk about the sun and moon?

 

 

 

*" Stone for testing gold" ( 試金石) by Fu JinChuan. There are originally 24 of them, but I cut them to half here....

Edited April 12, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[The Way Is Virtue]

Based on a book* written by a Ching-dynasty(1644-1911, AD)Taoist master, Fu JinChuan (付金銓),I summarize the following eleven questions in Taoist alchemy .If you find them silly ,then I have to say "yeah ", they are:

...

*" Stone for testing gold" ( 試金石) by Fu JinChuan. There are originally 24 of them, but I cut them to half here....

 

Well, these questions do not look easy, and some are probably trick questions, but I will take a crack at trying to answer them anyway for fun.

 

 

1) Taoist alchemy is said to be simple, or very simple. As Zhang BoTuan says: " Those who know the truth recognize how simple it is ; those who don't know , likely incline to make it as complicated as they can". But why so simply ?

 

Because taoist cultivation makes use of natural processes, so one only needs to know how to align oneself with these natural processes and doesn't really need to do or know anything more to proceed?

 

 

2) It is said to be "just before our eyes" . Why?

 

Because everything arises from tao and everything is therefore of tao?

 

 

3) Why say that Tao is laughable? Because it claims eternity possible , or because it emphasizes on using other sex's body?

 

Because a person pursuiing tao seems to be acting against 'common worldly sense'?

 

 

4) Why say that it should be done at home, not on high mountains?

 

Because everything that is needed for cultivation is already within us?

 

 

5) Why say that it must be succeeded through dual-cultivation, not solely by the effort of our mind or oneself?

 

Because cultivation of tao requires the dual cultivation of nature and life (xing and ming)?

 

 

6) Why say that those hazards will definitely arise in our practice? Any exceptions?

 

No idea...

[Added later:] Because we are not perfect so we cannot avoid all hazards on our own? Exception might be if one follows exactly as an accomplished teacher directs us?

 

 

7) Why an " old yellow-faced female matchmaker" is needed ?

 

No idea... Wait, on second thought it may refer to Earth element (yellow color) which facilitates the merging of true yang and true yin, thus doing a kind of match making?

 

 

8) Why make use of the time is crucial? Why say that the flexible Zi time(活子時) is more important than the fixed Zi time ( 11:00pm~1:00am)?

 

Because we need to practice to make progress? Certain times of the day and night are more beneficial for practice; however, it is better to practice when one can manage it than to not practice at all?

 

 

9) It is said that real hermits live in public, hidden in mass , not deep in deep cave. Why ?

 

Because to cultivate virtue to a high level one must learn to live harmoniously with others and help others where one can? One cannot achieve this in complete isolation?

 

 

10) Why say that if not having our te polished and upgraded, then there is no way of proceeding, or laying the foundation?

 

Because cultivating te is the way of aligning with and cultivating tao within ourself, and no alignment with tao means no cultivation of tao is possible?

[Added later:] In terms of xing and ming, we can't proceed in tao cultivation if we have an insufficient 'basis' and insufficient 'materials' to start working with?

 

 

11) Why talk about the sun and moon?

 

Because it represents true yang and true yin, or at least yang and yin, which is an important concept in taoist cultivation?

 

 

I hope I didn't flunk this test too badly.

I would be interested to hear the correct answers...

 

 

.

Edited April 11, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[tccii]

Well, these questions do not look easy, and some are probably trick questions, but I will take a crack at trying to answer them anyway for fun.

 

 

I hope I didn't flunk this test too badly.

I would be interested to hear the correct answers...

 

[/Quote]

 

Your answers are good. I don't know if there is a single "correct" answer. (If you can name it, it is not Tao!) As with most Taoist concepts there are many layers of meaning. The importance of any given interpretation may vary significantly by school.

 

 

 

2) It is said to be "just before our eyes" . Why?

 

Because everything arises from tao and everything is therefore of tao?

 

 

This one has a double meaning referring to a certain stage in the practice. Also, it is related to the "Dao is obtainable in an instant" concept we are discussing over here.

 

 

4) Why say that it should be done at home, not on high mountains?

 

Because everything that is needed for cultivation is already within us?

 

 

Yes. Also has a dual meaning in the Yin Yang Pai. This one is also related to question 9.

 

 

5) Why say that it must be succeeded through dual-cultivation, not solely by the effort of our mind or oneself?

 

Because cultivation of tao requires the dual cultivation of nature and life (xing and ming)?

 

 

Dual cultivation has a dual meaning in certain branches of the Southern School and the Yin Yang Pai.

 

 

6) Why say that those hazards will definitely arise in our practice? Any exceptions?

 

No idea...

[Added later:] Because we are not perfect so we cannot avoid all hazards on our own? Exception might be if one follows exactly as an accomplished teacher directs us?

 

 

I am not certain that a good teacher can prevent them from arising. Instead, the very fact that hazards will arise is why it is so important to have a teacher.

 

 

8) Why make use of the time is crucial? Why say that the flexible Zi time(活子時) is more important than the fixed Zi time ( 11:00pm~1:00am)?

 

Because we need to practice to make progress? Certain times of the day and night are more beneficial for practice; however, it is better to practice when one can manage it than to not practice at all?

 

 

Great observation. One of the biggest obstacles most people face is looking for the ideal time to practice. There is no better time than now... There is also another meaning which relates to one of the specific techniques of the practice.

 

 

 

9) It is said that real hermits live in public, hidden in mass , not deep in deep cave. Why ?

 

Because to cultivate virtue to a high level one must learn to live harmoniously with others and help others where one can? One cannot achieve this in complete isolation?

 

 

I would add that some believe to cultivate in this world requires higher level of virtue (Te). Think about it practically, which is easier? To cultivate when everything is taken care of for you and you have nothing to do but practice. Or to cultivate when you have a wife, family, friends, job and bills to which you must attend? The latter are the "Hidden Dragons."

 

 

11) Why talk about the sun and moon?

 

Because it represents true yang and true yin, or at least yang and yin, which is an important concept in taoist cultivation?

 

 

Also a dual meaning in Yin Yang Pai. Also related to a specific technique in some schools.

Edited April 12, 2011 by tccii

[exorcist_1699]

Mr. Fu does not provide any answers for his questions, nor can I. I think , what he wants to attain is to clarify some bias and ambiguities.

 

Anyway, for some of them , I do get some ideas to share:

 

1) Regarding the simplicity of Taoist alchemy : I think by using Zen 's method to attain an awakening, then use that Mind to sublimate our jing to qi , likely be a very simple way..

 

7) As some members here already mentioned, a matchmaker is to enable qi and shen to "marry" and then have an intersourse. Why yellow? The intercourse likely happen in the middle of our body, and the middle's color, in Chinese culture, is always said to be yellow.

 

8)Although yang-energy is said to arise at the Zi time in ordinary people's body (old people's Zi tends to be shifting backforwards , say to 3~5 am), and practicing at that time makes them easier arouse their jing ang qi , it is not necessarily important for the experienced Taoist practitioners. To them , yang can arise at any moment, many times a day in their bodies , dependent more on the spiritual quality than what time it is. So, whenever, it arise, you "assimilate" it..

Edited April 12, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[hagar]

I would not even try to answer more than the first question.

 

1) Taoist alchemy is said to be simple, or very simple. As Zhang BoTuan puts it : " Those who know the truth recognize how simple it is ; those who can't discern it , likely incline to make it as complicated as they can". But why so simple ?

 

The first and ultimate step is backwards. It is simple through realizing the One.

 

It is singular in gathering back the light into the physical presence of your true nature. The bright light returning back into the true red physical essence.

 

h

[The Way Is Virtue]

Mr. Fu does not provide any answers for his questions, nor can I. I think , what he wants to attain is to clarify some bias and ambiguities.

 

Now you tell me...

 

 

8)Although yang-energy is said to arise at the Zi time in ordinary people's body (old people's Zi tends to be shifting backforwards , say to 3~5 am), and practicing at that time makes them easier arouse their jing ang qi , it is not necessarily important for the experienced Taoist practitioners. To them , yang can arise at any moment, many times a day in their bodies , dependent more on the spiritual quality than what time it is. So, whenever, it arise, you "assimilate" it..

 

Interesting....

[manitou]

What a WONDERFUL bunch of silly questions!! I love them.

TWIV, you are really brave for being the one to kick this off.

 

Sometimes I think the "just before our eyes" thing also refers to the fact that we had it as children. We KNOW this stuff inside, we just have to get back to it. Remember when you were a kid and would put your hands up and say "Abracadabra!", and just KNOW that you actually had the power to effect the change? And then how frustrating it would get because we couldn't actually make it happen? It's like the knowledge is innate, it's something that's there but we can't quite tap into it.

 

I don't know about Taoist alchemy, or what that really means. I do know that getting close to enlightenment is laughable, because once you come full circle and realize there is nothing floating around out there to petition for anything, we realize that we're exactly back where we first started. With ourselves. And Who We Are. Once we realize that, it is truly laughable because of all the cogitation and mental masturbation it took to get there. It's more of a process of elimination; someone earlier said 'going backwards'. I fully agree with this; it's like going back to the future, or going forward to the beginning, or something like that. I feel that at the point we're all at on this forum, we're standing in a stream, facing downstream but walking slowly upstream.

 

As to using the other sex's body (I'm not sure in what context you're speaking, but I assume we're not talking about actual sexual activity), this may be referring to the fact that we're all One. We're ALL male and female, just in varying degrees. Perhaps the best way to understand the totality of yin and yang is to do it from the perspective of the opposite sex for a period of time.

 

As to the dual cultivation question, (not solely by the effort of our mind or oneself) perhaps this means that it's our job to get ourselves out of the way by doing the inner work and making the channel worthy. When the channel becomes worthy, this is when the Snake makes its entrance; this is not controllable by anything we do. The snake shows up at the appointed moment. Mine happened during an auto accident, but the channel had been prepared by working the steps of recovery and cleaning out my previously rotten insides.

 

Perhaps the old yellow-faced female matchmaker also refers to the fact that the way of the Tao on the earth is the function of the Yin, as opposed to Yang. To be the receptor of all that flows downward to the lowliest place. Perhaps it means that we must embrace the female yin in order for the matchmaking to take place?

 

Why talk about the sun and moon? This is an interesting question.

We, at our basest element, seem to come from the sun. We seem to be the stuff of stardust. The moon is merely a reflection of the sun. Perhaps the convergence or collective of souls is in the sun; perhaps this is what fire really is. Perhaps the molten part of the sun that remains within our earth is merely an outreach of our sun, and everything that has evolved from within this "sun" at the center of our earth is what we see around us every day.

 

In another thread I mentioned that I was a little awestruck by looking up at a full moon on a trip to China and seeing the very same face in the moon that I see in my own backyard at home! It was a bizarre and sudden awareness that the face of the moon is the one thing we all have in common, regardless of where on the planet we stand. Or it might just be that pointing to the moon merely means that we've reached the end of the verbal and intellectual road, and that direct experience is the only teacher from that point on.

 

But either way, the moon is a reflection of the sun off rock and this is certainly a great metaphor for the illusiveness of everything we see.

[thelerner]

The first question answers the next 10.

 

It is simple for those who don't pick and choose; simpler when we don't get pre-occupied by the extraneous.

 

Keep things as simple as they need to be. Don't add layers and fill your mind with unnecessary thoughts. IMO better a taoist bum, then a taoist scholar.

[adept]

The first question answers the next 10.

 

It is simple for those who don't pick and choose; simpler when we don't get pre-occupied by the extraneous.

 

Keep things as simple as they need to be. Don't add layers and fill your mind with unnecessary thoughts. IMO better a taoist bum, then a taoist scholar.

 

Or a Ch'an bum

In the words of the profound Ch'an text the Hsin Hsin Ming :

 

'The Great Way is not difficult

for those who have no preferences.

When love and hate are both absent

everything becomes clear and undisguised.

Make the smallest distinction, however

and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.

If you wish to see the truth

then hold no opinions for or against anything.

To set up what you like against what you dislike

is the disease of the mind.

When the deep meaning of things is not understood

the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.'

 

 

These could easily be the words of a Taoist sage. The similarities are startling.

[manitou]

Or a Ch'an bum

In the words of the profound Ch'an text the Hsin Hsin Ming :

 

'The Great Way is not difficult

for those who have no preferences.

When love and hate are both absent

everything becomes clear and undisguised.

Make the smallest distinction, however

and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.

If you wish to see the truth

then hold no opinions for or against anything.

To set up what you like against what you dislike

is the disease of the mind.

When the deep meaning of things is not understood

the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.'

 

 

These could easily be the words of a Taoist sage. The similarities are startling.

 

 

I agree - it doesn't get much better than this. No distinctions.

[thelerner]

I agree - it doesn't get much better than this. No distinctions.

Hmnn, maybe its no distinctions thus no distractions.

[exorcist_1699]

I would not even try to answer more than the first question.....

 

It is singular in gathering back the light into the physical presence of your true nature. The bright light returning back into the true red physical essence.

 

h

 

 

Anything related to the sun ?

[manitou]

Anything related to the sun ?

 

 

I'm thinking there's a great analogy between fire and the soul. I'm even wondering if the onset of man's awareness of self didn't happen when man discovered fire. In one thread, Marbles said something about being open to the ideas of both evolution and creation, or something like that. The advent of man's ability to even be social must have been greatly influenced by a big firepit. Man's awareness of fire may have been the kiss of 'creation', the infusion of the god-spirit (for lack of a better term) into the hominids.

Edited April 13, 2011 by manitou