[TTC Study] Chapter 33 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[rene]

It's interesting to see how Henricks dealt with the last line. I wonder if 'fond memories' is what Laozi had in mind there, lol.

[Marblehead]

It's interesting to see how Henricks dealt with the last line. I wonder if 'fond memories' is what Laozi had in mind there, lol.

 

Yes, Henricks' translation is totally compatible with my mind-set. That line should cause some discussion.

[Aaron]

I like Henrick's translation. It makes more sense to me. I never felt that the Tao Teh Ching pointed towards immortality in the sense that seems to pervade much of Chinese folk lore, but rather that he was a very practical man. In that sense, "to die but not be forgotten" not only makes a great deal of sense to me, but actually answers that question.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

It makes more sense to me.

 

Aaron

 

Exactly.

[anatman]

if i remember correctly,it is said that lao tzu rode off"into the west(sunset)on a white buffalo".if your going to be remembered,that's a classy way(i think).

 

and i find i like hendricks too.

[Marblehead]

if i remember correctly,it is said that lao tzu rode off"into the west(sunset)on a white buffalo".if your going to be remembered,that's a classy way(i think).

 

 

Yeah, that's pretty much the way the story goes.

[manitou]

Lin Yutang:

 

He who knows others is learned;

He who knows himself is wise.

He who conquers others has power of muscles;

He who conquers himself is strong.

He who is contented is rich.

He who is determined has strength of will.

He who does not lose his center endures,

He who dies yet (his power) remains has long life

 

 

If we are an observer of other people, we can be learned about their actions and behaviors. But to be able to interpret their actions and behaviors requires that the observer Know Himself from the inside out; to get down to the Oneness that we all share. The true human essence. It takes much more to conquer self than to conquer other people; to look into the mirror without turning our face away and see ourselves for what we actually are is to develop a Christ consciousness.

 

To make the decision to love everything we have, everyone around us, is to truly become rich. To become contented with what we are and what we have.

 

When it says 'He who does not lose his center endures...' This is the one day at a time-ness of trusting the universe. Why not trust the universe? Not trusting it is fine, but what does it get you? A life of fear. I'd rather trust, even if I'm wrong.

Edited April 13, 2011 by manitou

[Marblehead]

If we are an observer of other people, we can be learned about their actions and behaviors. But to be able to interpret their actions and behaviors requires that the observer Know Himself from the inside out; to get down to the Oneness that we all share. The true human essence.

 

True.

 

Your last sentence I would use, "The true human animal." We are, after all, just one of many animals on this planet.

[Aaron]

Hello Manitou,

 

Although I agree with your opinion that understanding one's self helps one to understand others much better, I'm not sold on the notion that it's what's being said here. For me they are being presented as two separate ideas.

 

The man who knows people is intelligent,

The man who knows himself is truly wise...

 

or something like that. That doesn't mean that the man who knows himself doesn't know other people, but rather that the more important thing is to know yourself. Clearly a lesson the psychological community has chosen to ignore... ... joking there.

 

Aaron

 

edit- the joke of course is that the psychological community chooses to study others in the pursuit of understanding how the human mind works, whereas they would probably be better served by studying themselves.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Twinner

[manitou]

That doesn't mean that the man who knows himself doesn't know other people, but rather that the more important thing is to know yourself. Clearly a lesson the psychological community has chosen to ignore... ... joking there.

 

Aaron

 

edit- the joke of course is that the psychological community chooses to study others in the pursuit of understanding how the human mind works, whereas they would probably be better served by studying themselves.

 

 

Okay. We're probably saying the same thing. Everything is One. Mankind is part of the Everything. Therefore, mankind is all one. We think we are separate rays, but in actuality we are all the sun; that's the metaphor that describes it best for me.

 

I sure hope not to offend anybody, but I have noticed something over the years; that a portion current day mental health professional are rather screwed up themselves. If one spends their entire day looking for the flaws in others, but without knowing themselves first, they are merely solidifying the shield of denial within their own psyche. After all, they are always with the one in the know, their client being the one not in the know. The ego would have a tendency to balloon over the years, this being the case. Thicker and thicker the denial gets.

 

The psychiatrist or counsellor who knows himself to the core, who has become a self-realized individual - think Deepak Chopra - this person knows others because they have found the Source through themselves first; this is the third eye vision that accompanies a true healer of minds.

 

After all, Twinner, how many mental health pros have we met in meetings? And it's in there that they find themselves for the first time.

[zerostao]

"knowing others can only be considered being intelligent, knowing one's own character is to attain true clarity of being"

 

"winning over others is strong, winning over oneself is true power"

 

"being content is being wealthy"

 

"to persist is to have inspiration"

 

"not deviating from the tao is everlasting"

 

"death without perishing is longevity"

 

 

this chapter works for me. i am surprised there was so little discussion about it.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 33

1. One who knows others is intelligent.

2. One who knows oneself is brilliant.

3. One who exceeds others has strength.

4. One who is self contained is strong.

5. One who is self contented is rich.

6. One who is diligent has volition.

7. Not loosing one's foundation will be long lasting.

8. One who passed away but not forgotten,

9. It's longevity.

 

33

1. 知人者智，

2. 自知者明。

3. 勝人者有力，

4. 自勝者強。

5. 知足者富。

6. 強行者有志。

7. 不失其所者久。

8. 死而不亡者，

9. 壽。

 

Edited:

6. One who is diligent is ambitious has volition.

Edited July 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Chapter 33

 

6. One who is diligent is ambitious.

 

Your translation is similar to others but I suggest that we need read this line with caution. The word "ambitious" can be misguiding.

[ChiDragon]

6. One who is diligent is ambitious.

 

Your translation is similar to others but I suggest that we need read this line with caution. The word "ambitious" can be misguiding.

 

My original translation for this line was:

6. One who is diligent has volition.

 

Will this work.....???

[zerostao]

for me chapter 33 effectively summarizes the entire TTC as it is emphasizing

self awareness, self-control, contentment, and (instead of ambitious i would say)

aspiration.

manitou made an excellent point about the danger of looking at the faults of others and not seeing our own.

 

and i will repeat> i am surprised there was so little discussion about it.

i will discuss with myself for my own benefit as i find this chapter to be that important.

 

"knowing others can only be considered being intelligent, knowing one's own character is to attain true clarity of being"

how did Lao Tzu value intelligence as compared to how he valued clarity?

the more time we can spend learning about ourself and cultivating our character

is attaining a higher realization.

 

"winning over others is strong, winning over oneself is true power"

i have always said the only person i am competing against is myself.

it is thru introspection that we can (and it is difficult and that is why it is called "true power")

remove our undesirable traits, selfishness , lusts, etc

 

"being content is being wealthy"

when i was "rolling" and had money to burn, i still was not satisfied, i wanted more and more.

i certainly did not have happiness becoz of my status. i was even a bit greedy and always wanting more.

now i am happy with what i have. i am content and in being content i feel "rich"

(just playing baguazhang at my leisure makes me feel very rich )

it seems that things just come easier to me now i dont have to be in an agressive pursuit.

and i certainly appreciate more what i do have and what folks have done for me.

 

"to persist is to have inspiration"

realizing just how profound the tao is and being active in having goals to come closer to attaining the tao.

and remember that the higher the goal is proportional to the more obstacles that will be encountered.

it is thru persistence that we acheive our goals and this provides inspiration to continue to do so.

 

"not deviating from the tao is everlasting"

all things come from tao. we must adhere to the principles of tao to survive.

deviating from the tao results in deteriorization.

 

"death without perishing is longevity"

we live and we die , this is natural.

what is important is to establish the true value of existence- the continuation of the spirit.

only the spirit that is in unity with the tao is everlasting.(true longevity)

[dawei]

My original translation for this line was:

6. One who is diligent has volition.

 

Will this work.....???

I think the two words 強 (to make an effort) and 志 (purpose and determination) are not tied together enough. The effort needs strength (of purpose). Volition just means one has a choice (a will); one has the power to choose but does not mean that the actual choice itself has any power behind it. I think the latter idea is what is meant to be conveyed.

 

Compare these three:

Chan - He who acts with vigour has will.

 

English/Feng - Perseverance is a sign of willpower.

 

Legge - he who goes on acting with energy has a (firm) will.

 

All three use "will" which is similar to volition but the last two see that the 'will' is being described here as having some sort of strength behind it. So the last two translations are much better since the strength of the 'will' is better understood in the line.

Edited July 26, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

My original translation for this line was:

6. One who is diligent has volition.

 

Will this work.....???

 

Yes. In my opinion it is much closer to the philosophy of Taoism. (Remember, we are told again and again to lessen our desires. 'Ambition' and 'desire' are too closely related words.)

[Marblehead]

for me chapter 33 effectively summarizes the entire TTC as it is emphasizing

self awareness, self-control, contentment, and (instead of ambitious i would say)

aspiration.

 

So are you still looking for that perfect, unblemished mirror or have you already found it?

[dawei]

Yes. In my opinion it is much closer to the philosophy of Taoism. (Remember, we are told again and again to lessen our desires. 'Ambition' and 'desire' are too closely related words.)

I would agree that ambition is the wrong word but the sentence is focused on the kind of diligence one has. I don't think Taoism is saying to lessen the kind of diligence one possesses in a task. I am not crazy about 'diligence' here but it's not my translation.

[Marblehead]

I would agree that ambition is the wrong word but the sentence is focused on the kind of diligence one has. I don't think Taoism is saying to lessen the kind of diligence one possesses in a task. I am not crazy about 'diligence' here but it's not my translation.

 

Good consideration. True, 'diligence' almost sounds religious. Hehehe. We are spontaneous people. Don't have to get down on our knees and smash our head against the ground five times a day.

 

Perhaps though, diligence is necessary for those who have not yet attained the clarity of spontaneity?

[ChiDragon]

Good consideration. True, 'diligence' almost sounds religious. Hehehe. We are spontaneous people. Don't have to get down on our knees and smash our head against the ground five times a day.

 

Perhaps though, diligence is necessary for those who have not yet attained the clarity of spontaneity?

6. 強行者有志。

 

A more direct translation would be:

6. The one who forces oneself to do something has volition.

 

Annotation:

"Diligence" is a form of discipline which one has to be forced upon oneself by will.

 

What is so religious about it....???

Edited July 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[zerostao]

So are you still looking for that perfect, unblemished mirror or have you already found it?

i am content to continue to polish and not deviate from the one i have.

hehehehehehe !!! the number of posts to this discussion doubled very quickly.

seems the entire TTC study area has been livening up lately.

edit> i think the nei-yeh will liven up one day too.

Edited July 26, 2011 by zerostao

[Marblehead]

i am content to continue to polish and not deviate from the one i have.

hehehehehehe !!! the number of posts to this discussion doubled very quickly.

seems the entire TTC study area has been livening up lately.

edit> i think the nei-yeh will liven up one day too.

 

My mirror is cracked. Hehehe. But there are areas that are still very functional. I just have to seek them out.

 

Yes, I am very pleased with the participation in the TTC Chapter threads and I agree, more people are joining the discussions and this is good, IMO.

 

Yeah, I know. I should be posting in the Nei-yeh threads but I am kept pretty busy with the TTC threads. They are a matter of record so I will get to them eventually.

[ChiDragon]

6. 強行者有志。

 

A more direct translation would be:

6. The one who forces oneself to do something has volition.

 

Annotation:

"Diligence" is a form of discipline which one has to be forced upon oneself by will.

 

What is so religious about it....???

 

Recently, I went to Hong Kong, China and bought couple books. One is the Tao Te Ching and the other is Zhunag Tze.

 

The Tao Te Ching was translated into modern Chinese line-by-line. Therefore, I have to revise this line.

6. 強行者有志。

6. The one who forced upon oneself to do something has inspiration.

Edited May 22, 2012 by ChiDragon