[TTC Study] Chapter 33 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

 

6. 強行者有志。

6. The one who forced upon oneself to do something has inspiration.

Oh!, that is such a tricky sentence using those words. (I always define "inspiration" as [inner] self-generated.)

[Informer]

What about . . .

 

One who perseveres through adversity has a strong will.

 

(Like if someone quits smoking cold turkey, they are persevering through the adversity of addiction, hence they have a strong will)

 

Just a thought.

[ChiDragon]

What about . . .

 

One who perseveres through adversity has a strong will.

 

(Like if someone quits smoking cold turkey, they are persevering through the adversity of addiction, hence they have a strong will)

 

Just a thought.

6. 強行者有志。

6. The one who forced forces upon oneself to do something has inspiration.

 

I see that you are still thinking about the other translation. However,

強行者(the one who does thing forcefully or unwillingly) in the phrase does not contain the meaning of 'perseverance'.

Edited May 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

John Wu:

 

And he who adheres assiduously to the path of Tao is a man of steady purpose.

 

ChiDragon:

 

The one who forced upon oneself to do something has inspiration.

 

Given that John Wu may have taken liberties with the translation, I think that this does present the concept well.

 

"The one who force(s) upon oneself to do something has inspiration."

 

Sure, I would be inspired by whatever if I were to steadfastly follow my chosen path.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

John Wu:

 

And he who adheres assiduously to the path of Tao is a man of steady purpose.

 

 

I think that John Wu had squeezed "the path of Tao" into his thought. The line is about personal behavior not about Tao.

Edited May 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I think that John Wu had squeezed "the path of Tao" into his thought. The line is about personal behavior not about Tao.

Hehehe. I know. But you have to admit that it sounds nice.

[Stosh]

I'm claiming no expertise at all here but I like the process you guys are using,

could line six mean something along the lines of

 

A man who sticks to his plan actualizes his will.

 

And for line 8

A man that has lived strongly affects things beyond his death

 

I feel presumptuous saying anything ,

but I find it a terriffic endeavor

and so, wanted to stick my nose in

Edited May 23, 2012 by Stosh

[Informer]

Sounds to me like you got it, they seem to be pointing at the same thing.

 

(Which is all this is, pointers)

 

I think the trick is to point at the same thing using the fewest words.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Informer

[ChiDragon]

Stosh, welcome to the club...

 

'Will' was not advocated by LaoTze. If there is will, then there is desire. It is not Wu Wei.

 

Chapter 3

1. Dejectedly soliciting intelligentsia,

2. Discourage people from striving.

3. Not to value hard to obtained goods,

4. Prevent people from being thieves.

5. Not being seen desirable,

6. People won't become perturbed.

7. With sagacious ruling,

8. Emptied one's heart,

9. Solidified one's belly,

10. Weaken one's volition,

11. Strengthen one's bone,

12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,

13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

 

I think lines 10 thru 12 of Chapter 3 reflect LaoTze's thinking.

 

PS...

@informer

I meant to throw this at you too, finally, here is my chance...

Edited May 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Stosh, welcome to the club...

 

'Will' was not advocated by LaoTze. If there is will, then there is desire. It is not Wu Wei.

 

[i think lines 10 thru 12 of Chapter 3 reflect LaoTze's thinking.

 

Im not surprised to be corrected on that since I never did get the idea of being will-less

Like a ouija board shuttle.

 

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us!"

Stosh

[Informer]

Desire is as to obtain things that one does not have and is not likely to have, (wanting) is what it seems to me he was referring to. So it is not in regards to spiritual evolution, (Spiritual evolution is something we all already have and can achieve). it is not wanting, but doing.

 

Intention to realize spiritually is using will, so everyone who is reading a spiritual text likely has some sort of intention there.

 

The real question is what is will (imo) . (Choosing and Doing)

Edited May 23, 2012 by Informer

[Marblehead]

I'm claiming no expertise at all here but I like the process you guys are using,

could line six mean something along the lines of

 

A man who sticks to his plan actualizes his will.

 

And for line 8

A man that has lived strongly affects things beyond his death

 

I feel presumptuous saying anything ,

but I find it a terriffic endeavor

and so, wanted to stick my nose in

Yes, welcome to the TTC Study threads. I too think you have a good handle on the concepts.

 

Feel free (as in free will) to comment on any of the Chapters; there will always be a few of us who are willing (as in free will) to discuss the concepts with you.

[Informer]

I see it as will power is like exercising will over something, choosing for it, where will is simply choosing for you.

[Stosh]

Thanks,

Well I was thinking that maybe not all things one tried to make be in the expected future fell into the same category. This may be in line with informers post.

Buddha seemed to be ok with "middle path sorts of desires" if you know what I mean.

Reasonable stuff within ones grasp.

And I try to use that addage "Great minds think alike"

So that line Im corrected on reminds me of "Keep your eyes on the prize"

[Marblehead]

'Will' was not advocated by LaoTze. If there is will, then there is desire. It is not Wu Wei.

I agree with you but I disagree with your assumption. So there. Hehehe.

 

I think that Wu Wei and Free Will are compatible philosophies. Sometimes we wu wei and other times we wei wu wei. It is our free will that is allowing for the alterations, not some moral code that has been shoved down our throat.

 

Sure, reduce our desires. Without question.

 

Sure, keep our body healthy. Without question.

 

But to negate our freedom from making choices? Absolutely not!

 

I think that Line 10 is misleading through the use of the word "volition".

[ChiDragon]

I agree with you but I disagree with your assumption. So there. Hehehe.

 

I think that Wu Wei and Free Will are compatible philosophies. Sometimes we wu wei and other times we wei wu wei. It is our free will that is allowing for the alterations, not some moral code that has been shoved down our throat.

 

Sure, reduce our desires. Without question.

 

Sure, keep our body healthy. Without question.

 

But to negate our freedom from making choices? Absolutely not!

 

I think that Line 10 is misleading through the use of the word "volition".

 

As I'd mentioned before, LaoTze was not really concern about the positive stuff, he was more concern with the adversity from the negative outcome. I will let you digest this and see if you will come up with this again....

Edited May 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

As I'd mentioned before, LaoTze was not really concern about the positive stuff, he was more concern with the adversity from the negative outcome. I will let you digest this and see if you will come up with this again....

Hehehe. Once again I have to agree with you but ...

 

Yeah, I know, I am supposed to stick with the TTC and not try to insert my personal opinion. But then, as I do not read Chinese I will argue the various words used to translate the original if what I read causes a conflict in my mind.

 

Oh, I am sure you will see me questioning again. In fact, you can count on it.

[3bob]

It's interesting to see how Henricks dealt with the last line. I wonder if 'fond memories' is what Laozi had in mind there, lol.

 

The rest of the TTC alludes very well to what is meant in the last line of 33, but without experience of same this is mainly a word game.

[Stosh]

Starting with the premise that Lao wasnt advocating folks to sit around like vegetation,

continuing with the idea that it would be just fine to hug your child

also that the dude didnt care to have his fish dinner picked through

also that he had the motivations to write things study language and philosophy

and that you cant even lift your hand without willing it to rise

because humans dont have enough instict to behave even like a reptile without our will

and that human nature was to be valued

and that its human nature to have SOME will and desires

He MUST have at some point divided self defeating wills and desires from those which were enriching!

 

For a non Taoist to be peaceful he needs to accept what life throws at him

It would be wise to appreciate all his moments on the road to his goals rather than rely on the achievement of the goal itself because the "trip to Cancun may not be all that the Brochure said it would be"

If this is the sentiment of Wu wei . Terriffic! The translation needs to accommodate it.

 

I dont read any Chinese language especially 2300 yr old stuff, someone who CAN do that really should find the phraseology that makes the wisdom live again. It is not enough to translate the words without the meaning.

I have been told by a speaker of both Japanese and Mandarin that translation to english is super difficult because the means by which MEANING is conveyed is so different.

 

Sorry to get so maybe off track but novice folks like myself need the wise to clarify , not just repeat, because we cant do it all ourselves correctly.

[ChiDragon]

Stosh...

 

Welcome aboard. You are a gentleman and a scholar....

[The Observer]

Well, it's been quite a while since I post here but let me get right into things....

 

Good consideration. True, 'diligence' almost sounds religious. Hehehe. We are spontaneous people. Don't have to get down on our knees and smash our head against the ground five times a day.

 

Perhaps though, diligence is necessary for those who have not yet attained the clarity of spontaneity?

 

Okay so I think this is an important realization (for me anyways) that has been brought to light by many people and experiences I've come across as of late...the importance of hard work. The explicit truth is that the Tao Te Ching is the description of the fully realized sage; the implicit is that it took diligence, mistakes, study and experience to bring the seeming effortlessness of the sage to fruit.

Edited June 6, 2012 by The Observer

[Marblehead]

Okay so I think this is an important realization (for me anyways) that has been brought to light by many people and experiences I've come across as of late...the importance of hard work. The explicit truth is that the Tao Te Ching is the description of the fully realized sage; the implicit is that it took diligence, mistakes, study and experience to bring the seeming effortlessness of the sage to fruit.

I totally agree. To live, especially spontaneously, results in making many mistakes. But we learn from these mistakes, Right?

 

And yes, a fruitful life, IMO, requires hard work.

[ChiDragon]

I totally agree. To live, especially spontaneously, results in making many mistakes. But we learn from these mistakes, Right?

 

And yes, a fruitful life, IMO, requires hard work.

 

hehehe, then it won't be "seeming effortlessness".

[Marblehead]

hehehe, then it won't be "seeming effortlessness".

Nope.

 

You can wu wei when you get old and established.

 

For now, get your butt to work!