Baghwan bashing

[Wayfarer64]

Dont get me wrong,I have nothing but gratitude for the legitimate teachers I have encountered.What Im getting at here is the egregiously corrupt ones! Why do they emerge & why are they followed.Im quite serious.I think its an issue that has yet to be satisfactorily resolved in our spiritual culture,and full on sociopathic types like Rajneesh provide an excellent case study.

 

I suppose on the emotional side I am admittedly both puzzled & frustrated by the same sad scenarios recurring again & again.Some progress in the area would be gratifying.But we still seem to alternate between shocking naivete & equally unrealistic cynicism in our approach to spirituality.With Rajneesh we not only have the phenomenon of his life ,we also have the current repackaging & rewriting of his life by his succesors,trying to elevate him into some noble figurehead in order to legitimate their own claims.

 

I have no problem with legitimate gurus!!!! But the pseudo-guru phenomenon is alive & well & taking its toll on a spiritually naieve ,yet sincere, community.I think this warrants considerable attention.The deathtoll amongst the Orange People wasnt as high as Jonestown,but the same essential mechanisms were in place.AND IT ALL SEEMS SO AVOIDABLE,if it can just be clarified & presented as a general caution on the path.

 

 

It seems that there is USUALLY a deep flaw in religions, or cults-in their founders and their followers, just because of the all too human element of ego manifestation... Greed, l ust, power mongering, creep into the scenerio...

Christ has the legacy of the Catholic Church to sully his teachings-(Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition).. Buddha himself may have become something of a parasite in the waning days of his life and is said to have died from over-eating! Yet the teachings that came through each of them can be used by anyone to improve their state of consciousness.

Teachings are also changed like in a game of post-office...Mohammed was not anti-Jew, but his modern followers usually are.

The more modern gurus mentioned here, are not well known to me, but I did have experience with the Guru Maharaji (I later dubbed him "Two new car garagee")- in the '70s... A truelly bizarre experience -when I was kindly taken to the Astro-dome in Texas for a gathering of the guru's followers. (this to avoid the end of the world predicted by the Guru- the astro-dome would some-how be left standing from which his followers would emerge unscathed)...

I over-heard some of his staff say that because the parking-lot seemed so empty they would set-aside a huge swath of it for the parking of alien (ET) ships to land. It would be anounced that they were coming but would remain invisible so as not to bring the US airforce etc... Then they had several cars re-parked in front of the main gate so that the press would believe that there was a larger gathering...Which was their real aim in the first place. But now they had their folowers believing aliens had come to pay tribute to the Guru. Oh what a web we weave -

Most had already given him all of their wealth. yet the main thrust of the Guru's speach was about giving up attachment to possessions-by selling them and giving the proceeds to him! It was a circus and felt more like a sales-pitch than a lesson in transcendence.

But my friends who had brought me swore his meditation techniques brought them a white-light experience and great bliss. This similar to what I had experienced in the Dalai Lama's presense, so who was I to argue?

(My experience with the Dalai Lama has also been brought to question on another thread here on TB)...

So in all, I guess we must find our way to enlightenment as if crossing a mine field...These threads may be helping us to question ALL imparted wisdom as suspect, & that too may be a false path towards cynicism...As Cloud points out above...

So with feet firmly planted we learn to soar and by looking inward, we find what is out there... Making the best of the moments we have still seems like a good plan to me...

[cloud recluse]

Wayfarer,

was that Maharaji the "Prem Rawat" guy?If so,you might be interested in

 

My Webpage

 

Anyhow,it sounds like youve encountered a few heavy hitters on the Guru front.I imagine that must be a fairly intense experience.

 

Your anecdote here brings up a critical question.How many spiritual experinces are the result of ones own yogic efforts,but presented to you as 'guruji's grace' when you are highly vulnerable as youy psyche tries to incorporate this new ecstasy?

 

Also,does having the yogic skill to access intense altered states gurantee in any way the interpersonal ethical skill to use that energy wisely on oneself (let alone on others)?To me,they are two very SEPERATE skills.Ideally,each would reinforce the other,but if one is focusing on only the internal yogic aspect,& being blown away by it,it may not seem necessary to reengage ones critical faculties for ethical analysis.

 

I imaging that distinguishing these two areas of skill,Internal Yoga & Ethical Yoga,would prevent us throwing the baby out with the bathwater

 

Regards,Cloud

Edited September 6, 2006 by cloud recluse

[Wayfarer64]

Wayfarer,

was that Maharaji the "Prem Rawat" guy?If so,you might be interested in

 

My Webpage

 

Anyhow,it sounds like youve encountered a few heavy hitters on the Guru front.I imagine that must be a fairly intense experience.

 

Your anecdote here brings up a critical question.How many spiritual experinces are the result of ones own yogic efforts,but presented to you as 'guruji's grace' when you are highly vulnerable as youy psyche tries to incorporate this new ecstasy?

 

Also,does having the yogic skill to access intense altered states gurantee in any way the interpersonal ethical skill to use that energy wisely on oneself (let alone on others)?To me,they are two very SEPERATE skills.Ideally,each would reinforce the other,but if one is focusing on only the internal yogic aspect,& being blown away by it,it may not seem necessary to reengage ones critical faculties for ethical analysis.

 

I imaging that distinguishing these two areas of skill,Internal Yoga & Ethical Yoga,would prevent us throwing the baby out with the bathwater

 

Regards,Cloud

 

Hi there Cloud-

 

Yogic skills are not so very hard to train for with some people- but the ethics may never enter their concsiousness... it is a tool to make money or gain power.

By the by - The final chapter of the guru maharaji was that he pissed off his mom - the real power within the organization- because he wanted to marry a western woman. She told him "Go to your room you can no longer be God!!!" And she made his brother the new head-honcho for a while...By then my friends who had brought me to Texas had wised-up but had also given up much of their material wealth in the belief of ... what ? maybe a new life I guess a new way of being...Sad & funny too. & yes the link is about the "two-new-car-garagee I came to deplore...Lord of the Universe yikes!

 

 

I am not sure that anyone born flesh and blood can maintain a perfect state of hyper-consciousness or enlightenment all the time. And it may be that the springing back into lower states of being actually brings some of these gurus to a very low place indeed. If they get lazy at that point and remain mired in base personal motivations-look out, getout and grab anyone you care about when the cosmic shit hits the kharmic fan it aint pretty and people lose their way in a big way. Being flung from ones "life" path into the wild world of inner turmoil is a sort of hell...Souls can be lost. And the empty shells look human but they are just empty husks with very dark appitites-like demons I guess. Very dangerous.

 

Seeking can be a real rat-race! Spiritual questing has taken a large part of my life's time and energy. I am not sure there is a teacher for me. But so far its the children, dogs and simple (poor and happy) folks who have offered me the purest love and most open hearted access to themselves and thus our shared reality...

An open aware mind expanding through time and space has got to be a pretty special thing on any scale of being. I look for that in teachers and myself, I find it in meditation, painting, playing musiv, love-making and LSD etc... That moment with the Dalai Lama still seems like the real thing to me but I will apply my sceptical reasonable powers of deduction and scientific yearning to analize what it was I experienced. as promissed ...(but I am pretty sure that paper is not a fair assessment of the growth from feudal Tibet into the more modern and changing Tibetan diaspora)...The world is changing the Dalai aLama as much if not more than he is changing the world... But thats a different thread -

 

That is another reason I think of the middle way as the way for me. There's no huge leap of cosmic glee and base angst to swing through. I hope to obtain a nice steady groove that keeps me on my toes and aware of the incredible beauty and joy any moment can offer -not some grandiose transcendent flip into a new state of being. This life is all the blessing and grace I seek. If I can just see it around me & within me...Sometimes this happens.

So ok-This life and this world are amazing just as they are day to day. & I think that is what I need to grasp more often from within myself.

So, I have seen how these guys can be of low charracter and able to project a "high" state of awareness into the susceptible minds of seekers.

But where is the sense of playful honesty (good humor) and open-minded inclusion of all life in our sense of being... One with All...The compassionate connectedness without a "gimme" attached? Making the effort may just be enough to grant us the grace to get through and remain happy with whatever we have... Pretty unAmerican huh?

But wanting more enlightenment is not so very different from wanting more chocolate, sometimes a little is enough to see us through...and the imbalance of overdoing and jonesing lays us lower than when we started....

sorry I gotta make these shorter huh?

not this time! I just read through some of that web site the little ck-scker is still at it! I can not believe he still has a following-very troubling to me & don't see my friends names on the ex-premie roll-call but I'm pretty sure they got out... Been a long time since '73...Down Many paths.With no thought of that little imp 'til now!

Like Knosses says in "Been Down so long it looks like up to me"- Beware the monkey demon!

Edited September 7, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[sean]

But wanting more enlightenment is not so very different from wanting more chocolate, sometimes a little is enough to see us through...and the imbalance of overdoing and jonesing lays us lower than when we started....

Awesome line. That is definitely a keeper.

[cloud recluse]

 

Seeking can be a real rat-race! Spiritual questing has taken a large part of my life's time and energy. I am not sure there is a teacher for me. But so far its the children, dogs and simple (poor and happy) folks who have offered me the purest love and most open hearted access to themselves and thus our shared reality...

 

 

Damn right ! And dont apologize for the lengths of your post by the way,its full of gems.You sound like a very seasoned 'seeker' (If you dont mind the term).Keep em coming

 

Regards,Cloud.

[Wayfarer64]

Sean & Cloud -

Thank you both for your kindness. Seasoned yeah-I'm 52. I went from fully baked in high school and half baked in college to being many things in many places, and now after ten years of giving much of my energies as the primary care-giver for my dieing mom, [while trying to be a political entity (Green Party) & tenants rights advocate]... I want nothing more than to paint and jam with my blues cronies in NYC...or whereever. Basically go back to my life as an artist which I left behind for those ten years...

I've had a pretty wonderful life but also had some real bad things go down - I ran into some neo-nazis in 1983 that had their fun and left me for dead.

(this next part is not for the faint of heart)

So I know something about the true nature of evil, as well as of light and grace. I know some people do not have a soul. I don't even think of them as "humans" they are not as senscient as many critters i've shared cognisense with... but they act talk and walk like they are real people. Only without compassion an open mind nor a soul to hold their spirit close they are just empty and HUNGRY to fill the emptyness, which usually leads to cruelty and imposing their wills on others. The scaryest thing of all is that they don't know what is wrong with themselves, to themselves they are what humanbeings are supposed to be...most of them is here- acting like a person with a spark of life wanting to be fulfilled, only without the inner guidence it is just willfull lusting for power over others and craving others to suffer with them in some way or other...This is also a way to power, because the blind craving for it gives them direction and purpose... The nazis exposed these traits for history to remember and for folks now and in the future to always be aware of as in beware!

When I looked into Rudy Guliani's eyes as I told him of police corruption in the infamous 9th precinct of the lower East Side... It seemed as if he had no soul to stop my gaze going ever deeper into his eyes. And thats when I realized just how much the eyes of men and beasts ARE windows into the soul...or lack there of!

(its back to the light from here-)

Like I wrote before it has been in the eyes of dogs children and people content with their lives-no matter what - these are the places I have seen the brightest love-lights or spiritual light in the world. (and the Dalai Lama did once hit me with a serious intensity of this inner force - though his background check has been made some-what suspect to me here, I'm still pretty damn sure he's one of the good guys.)

When Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles can do what they do/did to reach my soul then I think it is just that love-light or soul-light or spiritual light transformed into music to find a way out into the world. That joy can be and is everywhere inside of people with souls and will find its way out to be shared some how...

I'm not sure I've stated these points that well but the dangers are real and the shared joys are real and staying aware and observing the nature of things and people can save your life and spirit some real pain.

[cloud recluse]

 

Like I wrote before it has been in the eyes of dogs children and people content with their lives-no matter what - these are the places I have seen the brightest love-lights or spiritual light in the world. (and the Dalai Lama did once hit me with a serious intensity of this inner force - though his background check has been made some-what suspect to me here, I'm still pretty damn sure he's one of the good guys.)

 

 

Let me assure you of one thing,as this is obviuosly in reference to the SHADOW document on the Signs of Buddha Thread.

 

Even if Trimondis accusation as to the agenda of the Vajrayana turned out to be 100% corect total truth (& I am not actually claiming that myself),this stilll doesnt indicate anything about the spiritual MOTIVATION of the DL. And this,I think ,is important in evaluating any one individual guru (or anyone else).

The DL,in this hypothesis,could be approaching the world from a VAST depth of love & compassion.But his instrument for that compassion would be the Kalachakra myth,its his understanding of the world & how to express compassion in it in practical action.

 

How many people,inspired by a true & valid love,have carried out terribly counterproductive mistakes,tragedies even,constrained & misdirected by the limiations of their conceptual worldviews. Loving parents who torture children with"therapies" to "cure" them of homosexuality,Inquisitors genuinely trying to "save' heretics from some imaginary damnation.

 

If the Trimondi's are actually right,is it not possible that DL radiates a GENUINE raw love,but then trys to express it through a woefully reactionary myth ? Or perhaps their entire claim will collapse upon inspection.Or something in the middle.

 

This is a consideration with any guru I think.

 

Regards,Cloud

[Wayfarer64]

Cloud,

I believe you are right. As I've put out here already... every religion I've studied has serious problems of conduct and myth-making or just plain lies and every other human foible...

The history of Catholicism is a very good example... Constantine was looking to unite a faltering Roman Empire so he glorified this little know Jewish sect and made it the state religion. This because he had seen a vision of a cross in the sky-(which by the way will happen to anyone looking into the sun with bleary eyes)...

I am a devout believer in the teachings of love and inner connectivity to god that Christ offered. Yet I also believe that he pretty much found lots of these ideas in Buddhism -which was some 5oo years old at that time. He being raised in a town on the silk road from Tibet, through China to Rome's impressive network of roads. And perhaps he was even an incarnation of a Tibetan Buddhist Lama as the story of the three wise men parallels the practice of seeking the reincarnated Lamas that comes to us even today. This is of course speculation but it makes some historical sense to me...

Even with all their many faults, millions of people have found a way to express their connectivity to The God within themselves through the Catholic church, (and Tibetan Buddhism).

What the Church has done since its rather awkward inception, (and here Paul and the other gospels start to play a part)... is usually nothing to brag about -as an institution supporting genocide and greed etc. etc. for centuries. It is in large part a shocking tale of woe.

Only I believe it is due to the weaknesses of people not the strength of the teachings being found wanting.

The most obvious case of this for me is in America today. I can say (as kindly as possible), that I have very serious doubts about most "born-again" reactionary bigots being enlightened.

All of your thoughts on this hold water in my mind... and looking at the roots of any system is very important for those looking for answers to these deeper questions of "why am I here" and where is the meaning to be found in this life that often seems to arbitrary and cruel...And the baby/bathwater thing is on the table to ponder as well... How do we glean the Holy from the venal?

I just think that knowing the faults is needed but should be used to put things in perspective rather than undermine the useful and transcendent aspects.

If indeed the system of the Tibetan Buddhist practice and doctrine is based on a structure of misogyny and is leading to extremely questionable goals it should be exposed as that in truth. If however those factors are ancient left-overs from feudal economic structures and a patriarchal society (like most others world-wide have been), then I want to see them change freely into a more open structure.

Please remember women's sufferage is also very recent in the USA, and when I was in Italy in 1976 women were seldom "let " outdoors without a male escort or watchful chaparone -(this is no longer the case). So true and operative tolerance of women's rights is a pretty new concept all over the world. And surely needs more work in the Islamic lands. This is very sad because it is plain that where the original structure was extremely pro-equal rights for women and was not anti-Jew. It later became extremely anti-equal rights for women and well, now it seems most Muslems just can't stand their Jewish brethren no more....

I only know of a few matriarchal social structures - the ancient Hebrew is more so than most and the Pre-Islamic society found in Ache -pronounced atch-eye (Sumatra) was matriarchal and still has strong remnants of that alive and well in some areas...

So keep the faith. Little by little women will gain ground and bigotry, sexism, and all forms of predjudice will slip into the past. We faulty humans are trending toward the light most of the time.

[Russell]

In the Taoist religion I understand that one must become a demon before one becomes a God. And even the Gods are unstable at best. Like freeform says, the hardest thing to face is what's under the surface of our own hard feelings for what we consider so "other". I imagine this is another one of those endlessly difficult features of being human. Various methods of self-inquiry help enormously. Byron Katie's work, the 3-2-1 Shadow Process, any good parts work (ie: Internal Family Systems).

 

Re: Osho, I've gotten some good gems out of his stuff. Same with Chogyam Trungpa. Same with Muktananda. Same with Adi Da even. I'm fairly glad I was never in a situation where they were crashing at my place regularly, but I enjoy checking out their insights from time to time. It's a shame these people and their organizations have also caused suffering. I am not against a call to accountability but I'm also not into victimization movements ("poor us"). Often I even think there should be more said about abuse and decline of teachers at the hands of deranged students than vice versa.

 

Sean

 

 

Swami Beyondananda:

http://wakeuplaughing.com/index.html

Especially - the news

http://wakeuplaughing.com/news.html and

Swami for Precedent

http://www.wakeuplaughing.com/precedent.html

[cloud recluse]

 

I just think that knowing the faults is needed but should be used to put things in perspective rather than undermine the useful and transcendent aspects.

If indeed the system of the Tibetan Buddhist practice and doctrine is based on a structure of misogyny and is leading to extremely questionable goals it should be exposed as that in truth. If however those factors are ancient left-overs from feudal economic structures and a patriarchal society (like most others world-wide have been), then I want to see them change freely into a more open structure.

..

 

Wayfarer,I concur utterly It wasnt actually the Trimondis that started me looking askance at the Vajrayana institution,rather it was June Campbell in TRAVELLER IN SPACE,which dealt specifically with misogynistic practice,& didnt touch on the Trimondis broader claims of a militant Shambhallah vision allegedly driving the Kalachakra.

 

But one thing I will say,which returns to the topic of this thread here,is that whatever their failings,I dont get the same malicious side that I perceive in Rajneesh.However mixed the motives may or may not be,the Dalai Lama is definetely out there proposing solutions to some degree at least.Rajneesh,in the final analysis,only seems to have proposed Rajneesh.

 

Regards,Cloud

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Cloud and others -

I seem to be getting these threads confused in my mind between the 32 signs of the Buddha and the Baghwan-bashing. I think I've trashed every proponent of faith-based sexual initiatives and get-over guru I know of... And it may be that I've been coming at this from the wrong direction.

I should keep in mind that the basis for all human actions are still pretty basic -if not base, and that is the common-ground level from which I seek for a way to allow my spirit to take wing.

If I do not give these gurus and masters and teachers the same slack I give myself, I'm being unfair to our shared humanity.

I am not sure I could avoid taking advantage of fawning, attentive and attractive "followers". I would like to think I can control my more base needs and proclivities as I will myself to be the best person I can be at all times... but I know this is not the case. We can only expect our mentors and guides to be human-nothing more. We each know how difficult it is to be the best we can be at any given time/space coordinate. So I think I will back off some here and now to reflect on my own mishandling of the love and devotion I have been blessed with. But I do want to answer a question in another thread first- Peace-

[thelerner]

I was thinking over what Wayfarer said about some people having no souls. Maybe right, but I think in most cases its a matter of we close off our souls(empathy?) to people we label Them.

 

I know nothing of Guiliani, but I bet you could find those who says he is a warm loving guy with lots of soul and compassion. When you had a chance to talk to him, you were labeled as a THEM, a wacky special interest guy who wanted his time, efforts and money. So he shut you out- completely.

 

Are the Nazi types closer to souless. They may get there kicks and ego boost from beating up on the lesser beings who inhabit there world, but they can show true friendship to each other, pet their dogs and be good to their mothers. Again its definition of others as THEM. Believe me, I'm defending them and would as soon see them bodyless as souless.

 

But the root of the problem IMHO is defining others as THEM, and closing ourselves off, losing our empathy, our soul, for them. Its not just the who, it also the when. When I'm angry at my kids and yell at them, I feel the separation and hardness. '

 

I don't have answers, but I know the trap, thinking of others as THEM. Solutions? Karma Yoga helps; selfless acts of kindness. Awareness helps, watching your mind and soul expand and contract.

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

I was thinking over what Wayfarer said about some people having no souls. Maybe right, but I think in most cases its a matter of we close off our souls(empathy?) to people we label Them.

 

I know nothing of Guiliani, but I bet you could find those who says he is a warm loving guy with lots of soul and compassion. When you had a chance to talk to him, you were labeled as a THEM, a wacky special interest guy who wanted his time, efforts and money. So he shut you out- completely.

 

Are the Nazi types closer to souless. They may get there kicks and ego boost from beating up on the lesser beings who inhabit there world, but they can show true friendship to each other, pet their dogs and be good to their mothers. Again its definition of others as THEM. Believe me, I'm defending them and would as soon see them bodyless as souless.

 

But the root of the problem IMHO is defining others as THEM, and closing ourselves off, losing our empathy, our soul, for them. Its not just the who, it also the when. When I'm angry at my kids and yell at them, I feel the separation and hardness. '

 

I don't have answers, but I know the trap, thinking of others as THEM. Solutions? Karma Yoga helps; selfless acts of kindness. Awareness helps, watching your mind and soul expand and contract.

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

Michael,

What you say is all entirely true. And addresses the human condition on the Artha level of existance very well. The "Politics of the other" has always been with us causing mayhem and grief. But what I am alluding to and trying to illustrate is more metaphysical and insidious. There are people who have given up their very souls to become something other than fully human. I may not be able to explain the phenomina very clearly but it is not about creating differences among ourselves it is about seeing the humanity in each-other or the lack there-of in a very concrete way as some people have the ability to "read" auras.

Sociopaths have the ability to share love with those they consider part of "themselves" as most will still protect their own children, parents, pets and spouses etc. But otherwise there is a total lake of compassion, none. They can make no connection outside of the realm they consider their own.

What I'm trying to explain is along those lines of abhorant human behavior, but at a deeper level where the socio-psyco pathic nature is a totality. There is the ability to behave as if they are part of our shared humanity but the actual receptor/conveyor of humanity (soul) is not there. Maybe soul in the wrong word to use here - I could just say they have lost their capacity to behave in anything but a willfull manner. Their is no conscience to modify their most selfish will; or that their connectivity to the inner god-head is gone, or they are cold-hearted...But I just say they got no soul and think it makes the point.

Society usually doesn't see the multi-murdering serial killers until it is much to late and then we always hear what seemingly "nice " people these sick-fucks were... All I am trying to get across is that there are some very dangerous beings out there that can fool us and do us harm if we are not aware of their potential for evil.

And I believe that with a little insight and the force of our own inner-light to illuminate the darkness we can see the emptyness within them. That evil men pet dogs means nothing. Have you ever seen the film of Hitler with his dog? -a german shepherd that cringed and kept its' tail tucked the whole while AH was playing with him/her/ The dog's body language was of fear not playfulness. That pooch knew his master was a bad man it shows on the film...

There is evil and we can spot it in others as well as ourselves. And that is where the struggle has always been...! within each and everyone of us to nurture our own inner lights in order to illuminate whatever darkness also resides within us and make it powerless as a force in our lives. Everyone fights this fight. But some folks lose it and become problematic.

Peace