I think I figured out the rapture thing.

[manitou]

Why should "karma" connotate time in the equation? Karma is all the added layers to the primordial spirit and the task is to realise that they are simply an illusory state. Karma is "wanting something" and the more you want the more you will put yourself into debt. There is no time as such only a measure of change and as you know everything is constantly changing around us.

 

Tackling the mind is the master key if you seek liberation.

 

 

 

Good point, to look at karma as 'wanting something'. We can do whatever we like as long as we're willing to pay the price tag. Looking at time as a measure of change is perfect. I've known people who rigidly adhere to the karma being punishment thing - I think it goes more to what you've said - wanting something. And I do think karma can be undone somewhat by new understanding and good intent of heart.

[Everything]

Its hard to follow what everyone means exactly.

 

No one has ever consciously experienced the place of death and returned to tell about it. The very nature of death makes it so that you remain unconscious, depending on what consciousness means for you. But I think you know what I mean. So, then how did we get this idea of death? Its similar to beginning and end. At each year, we begin new, and young, we celebrate the death of the old and birth of the new age. Destruction makes place for new things in nature all the time. It is part of our life, as is sacrifice and suicide with a definite constructive purpose, or destruction with a definite constructive purpose. I remember a tree that had seeds which would remain closed for 20 years untill some fire came along and made the circumstance ideal for it to grow. I forgot how it exactly worked or where it is, too bad. Would be a great example to explain the concept of death. So like any other word on the planet, death is relative. But we can talk relatively about the relativity of death for more wise conversations.

 

As to the scary moment that awaits us all, we do not know what will happen untill we experience it. So wandering in that future seems pointless to me, since a person full of life cannot even be touched by such fears of death. But then, being impulsively full of life out of fear for death is too extreme aswell. Find the balance.

 

Respect death for you will face it everytime you do courage. A moment of loneliness and fear, because no one can do courage for you, and you cannot fail when doing courage(unless you play victim, then its not doing courage). Courage is not confidence. It is not having courage, it is doing courage or doing the right thing with full capacity. Failing or succeeding, confidence is the reward. Death is not avoidable, but the destiny for those who do courage. Death of the old self, and birth of the new self. A movement towards a better self. Because when we do courage, it is diffrent from just drinking a cup of tea, and we see this. We notice it and thus notice the change it brings onto our self. We fear the change, call it death, then when death is over, a new life awaits and we forget death altogether. But death will always return, for it is a motion of nature. Ebb into death, flow into life. You get where I'm going with this.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Everything

[strawdog65]

Dawei - good point. But the material mind may be the very thing that is causing all this. If we are all One, then we must manifest thought from a common juncture, because we are manifesting from the inside to the outside. Unless one wants to look at the Tao as the void somehow being outside of ourselves.

 

I think the earth manifested from the inside out, over time. One layer and one event over the other. My guess is that the 'I' inside you is the very same 'I' that's inside me; the only difference is our conditioning. I'm also wondering if each and every one of us don't share the very same subconscious brain, and the subconscious brain is continuing to 'create' all that we see. It would be the conscious part of the brain that gives us the illusion that we are separate people.

 

I sometimes think about those huge mushroom masses that extend for miles upon miles under the earth in various areas - have you read about those? I wonder if the brain analogy can be extended to include the mushroom masses as being part of the earth's brain. After all, from mushrooms extend all sorts of separate realities, if you ingest them. My guess is that the indigenous would consume these plants (the ones that grew above) and have a group hallucination that would function as their thought-bubble, their template for future living in some cases. Perhaps our worldly affairs thought bubbles were all kicked off by the hallucinogenic plants. If you read Revelations, it sure reads like one who has been given visions during a hallucinogenic experience.

 

I don't mean to detract from the visions....if they were given by the plants, then they're there for a reason.

 

Perhaps fire is the originator of life. Perhaps all the suns are actually huge balls of awareness, chunks of which break off and become planets. The awareness stays within the planet by means of the molten fire at the center of the earth. when the time is right and conditions have ripened, the fire inside continues manifesting; earth, weather, grass, animals, humans, and beyond. The humans are the ones who have manifested with the ability to think outside of themselves. Perhaps It wants to manifest the finest humans with all their senses, so that It can Experience all that it thinks of.

 

This certainly wouldn't explain the Why (other than just plain experience), but maybe there's something to it as to the How.

 

 

Manitou HI!

 

Thanks for this very Interesting thread!

I just wanted to throw something into the mix....

What if what we believe to be a reality where we are existing separately and apart,

is actually a holographic existence where we as separate and whole, contain the parts and

whole of everything else... within us.

Just as with a hologram, the smallest piece contains the information of the entirety... maybe so too with us.

We perceive separateness but maybe we are the repository of all things?

 

Great Thread!!!

 

Peace!

[C T]

If we are all One, then we must manifest thought from a common juncture, because we are manifesting from the inside to the outside. Unless one wants to look at the Tao as the void somehow being outside of ourselves.

Hi Manitou,

 

Its quite clear your insights are deep and well-placed.

 

Its quite correct, in my view, that thoughts manifest from a common ground, but not too sure if its accurate enough to say that such are manifested from the inside to the outside. Where is this inside? Where is outside? Are these two 'sides' not linked in a seamless, eternal continuation? Any one aspect cannot arise, imo, without causing, affecting and effecting the other aspect to start vibrating as well.

 

What we deem to be aspects - be it our views, our needs, fears, aversions, beliefs, delusions, mentations, sensual grasping and avoidances - when these are all pacified - when the wantings cease (as Gerard has mentioned), then what power does karma have over such a mind? The mind that is unmoved, unmovable, solid, adamantine like a diamond, or, using the pop metaphor, like a mirror... such a mind is birthless/deathless. Whatever attempts to stain and taint such a mind will only end up tainting and staining itself.

 

When the mind is fully present, or when mindful attention is whole, karma begins and ends there... the chance for any carry-over is diminished. Its the unfinished businesses of our thoughts, words and actions that accrue deposits, or seeds that then bring forth sprouts and from these many other seeds and so on and so forth. Its a messy process. It is much more prudent to remain vigilant of our mind, so that whatever starts there get to finish there.

 

Upon investigation and introspection, we may realize that the mind is 'empty' essentially. If we then look even deeper, we can see that that which arises, or is continually arising in the mind, is also ending simultaneously. Familiarizing ourselves with the non-substantive nature of mind, the mind that is nowhere, we will begin to see that indeed whatever negativities, or positivities for that matter, perceived, mentated, are borne out of clinging to the ideology of a self. This clinging arises from where? The mind. If mind is empty, how can our perceptions and beliefs be phenomenally manifested and deemed solid when the base for such manifestations is fundamentally empty?

 

Not sure if this makes any sense to you. I am writing this in haste. I know tis not the ideal way to put ideas across, but i am going to hazard this post, and see what your views about it are. I like how you string other's thoughts together, so it will be interesting, should you have the inclination to ponder on this, to see what you have to say.

 

Mucho Gracias.. in gratefulness.

Edited April 16, 2011 by CowTao

[johndoe2012]

Manitou, have you read any of the Seth books?

 

I think your idea about is very similar to the one presented in

 

Seth Speaks

 

The Nature of Personal Reality

 

The Individual and Mass Events

[manitou]

I fully agree that there is a place where karma does not exist. It is in the wu-wei mindset as well.

 

CowTao, I'm getting a little up there in years and I can't mentally keep up with your thoughts. It stretches my brain a bit far.

 

Your one comment:

 

Its quite correct, in my view, that thoughts manifest from a common ground, but not too sure if its accurate enough to say that such are manifested from the inside to the outside. Where is this inside? Where is outside? Are these two 'sides' not linked in a seamless, eternal continuation? Any one aspect cannot arise, imo, without causing, affecting and effecting the other aspect to start vibrating as well.

 

 

 

The only thing I know is that I "see" it in some dimension in my head, and I just can't put it into words. I see it as the rays of the sun are to the sun, is what we are to Source. This place is seeing seems like it's behind me and a bit over my right shoulder; and there are a bunch of triangulations to situations. This is merely my own experience and I wouldn't expect anyone to take anything I "saw" here with anything more than a grain of salt.

 

I also know that there's a beautiful golden brilliant place, so brilliant that it's beyond description. It somehow is the core; it hums so loudly that it's unbearable and pleasant at the same time. It's a weightless place, this place that feels like Source and Awareness and Convergence of Souls....the only time I've been there was during an incredible accidental tantric sex experience, but the feeling of a Presence is imprinted on my soul, for lack of a better word.

 

 

 

WTM: Thanks for the pointers on the Seth books. Maybe I'll check into them -

Edited April 16, 2011 by manitou

[manitou]

Manitou HI!

 

Thanks for this very Interesting thread!

I just wanted to throw something into the mix....

What if what we believe to be a reality where we are existing separately and apart,

is actually a holographic existence where we as separate and whole, contain the parts and

whole of everything else... within us.

Just as with a hologram, the smallest piece contains the information of the entirety... maybe so too with us.

We perceive separateness but maybe we are the repository of all things?

 

Great Thread!!!

 

Peace!

 

Hi Straw Dog! Haven't heard from you in a little while. Have you been taking a mental vacation?

 

I too like the holographic idea, I know that fits in somehow too. It particularly seems to reconcile the quantum physics 'particle and wave' phenomena; as a holograph of its own nature seems to be a bit of a junction between time and space.

 

I often think of the analogy of the waves in the ocean; the water particles themselves aren't the things that move much; it's the energy of the current disturbing the particles momentarily then going on its merry way.

Edited April 16, 2011 by manitou

[Gerard]

Gerard, , I'd love to hear anything you have to say about ending up in distant places, if you are interested in expanding on that point.

 

cat,

 

I'd love too but there are certain topics that shouldn't be discussed openly not because of the memebers that visit this forum but the broader audience online. This is one of them. I hope you do understand. Anyway, when you asked this question you must have had a direct experience with it, right?

 

 

 

Good point, to look at karma as 'wanting something'. We can do whatever we like as long as we're willing to pay the price tag. Looking at time as a measure of change is perfect. I've known people who rigidly adhere to the karma being punishment thing - I think it goes more to what you've said - wanting something. And I do think karma can be undone somewhat by new understanding and good intent of heart.

 

Glad to see you grasped the idea. It's a shame that karma has been always associated with negativity.

 

In the spiritual path is easier to attain egohood than Buddhahood, so to speak, this leads to an endless karmic dream.

 

Learning to let go of the self will help to overcome desire, wanting things, karma. To me this is the ultimate obstacle (as I already mentioned numerous times) as the mind is what controls the ego.