What exactly is "birthing a spiritual embryo"

[fatherjhon]

I have run across this a number of times in some books. I know it is an advanced stage of niegong, I know it is the goal of many Taosist practices, and I think it is related to living enlightenment on a level that the Buddhists say is only possible for Buddhas at death.

 

But that does not tell me what it is. So if you'll humor the vague question, what is a spiritual embryo, what does it do, and how does it function?

[The Way Is Virtue]

I have run across this a number of times in some books. I know it is an advanced stage of niegong, I know it is the goal of many Taosist practices, and I think it is related to living enlightenment on a level that the Buddhists say is only possible for Buddhas at death.

But that does not tell me what it is. So if you'll humor the vague question, what is a spiritual embryo, what does it do, and how does it function?

 

The spiritual embryo (fetus) is a symbolic term used in at least some traditions of Taoist internal alchemy. The spirit of ordinary people is sometimes referred to as the yin or negative spirit. When we die this negative spirit is all that remains and we return to the yin spiritual realms. My understanding of taoist internal alchemy (at least in some traditions) is that the practitioner is working towards generating and fully developing the yang or positive spirit, which allows the practitioner to achieve spiritual immortality in the sense that the practitioner is no longer subject to the cycle of birth and death. Other abilities/accomplishements are achieved as well and there are different levels of attainment in internal alchemy practice. That is a rough idea of the concept. This might not apply to all traditions of internal alchemy however. Those who are more versed in the concepts of Taoist internal alchemy may be able to provide further info on this.

 

You can read a description of the overall Taoist Imternal alchemy process from two different traditions here:

http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/practical-process-taoist-internal-alchemy-practice

and here:

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Inner_Alchemy

 

Best wishes...

Edited April 17, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[exorcist_1699]

 

http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/practical-process-taoist-internal-alchemy-practice

 

Best wishes...

 

The mentioned website seems interesting..

[fatherjhon]

The spiritual embryo (fetus) is a symbolic term used in at least some traditions of Taoist internal alchemy. The spirit of ordinary people is sometimes referred to as the yin or negative spirit. When we die this negative spirit is all that remains and we return to the yin spiritual realms. My understanding of taoist internal alchemy (at least in some traditions) is that the practitioner is working towards generating and fully developing the yang or positive spirit, which allows the practitioner to achieve spiritual immortality in the sense that the practitioner is no longer subject to the cycle of birth and death. Other abilities/accomplishements are achieved as well and there are different levels of attainment in internal alchemy practice. That is a rough idea of the concept. This might not apply to all traditions of internal alchemy however. Those who are more versed in the concepts of Taoist internal alchemy may be able to provide further info on this.

 

You can read a description of the overall Taoist Imternal alchemy process from two different traditions here:

http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/practical-process-taoist-internal-alchemy-practice

and here:

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Inner_Alchemy

 

Best wishes...

 

Right this is interesting.

 

Is this the same as the po and hun souls that are (I think) subunits of Shen? I seem to recall that the po is yin and associated with running worldly functions of the mind an body while the hun is yang dealt with the energy and karmic bodies. I am not up on my Taoist cosmology like I should be either, where/what are the yin/yang spiritual realms?

 

I appreciate the help.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Right this is interesting.

Is this the same as the po and hun souls that are (I think) subunits of Shen? I seem to recall that the po is yin and associated with running worldly functions of the mind an body while the hun is yang dealt with the energy and karmic bodies. I am not up on my Taoist cosmology like I should be either, where/what are the yin/yang spiritual realms?

I appreciate the help.

 

My knowledge of Taoist theory is not sufficient enough to provide definitive answers to these questions.

I have found that different sources do not seem to always describe things in exactly the same way, and the theory can sometimes seem fairly complicated as well. Some alchemy writings refer to developing yang spirit but can also refer to cultivating primordial nature. I am not clear on how these two concepts tie together. On the one hand it would seem that we all have primordial nature, so it would seem one does not need to develop it but more like we just need to cultivate ourself to return to it, but at the same time internal alchemy seems to place emphasis on developing yang spirit (primordial spirit) as being important in this process. So maybe yang spirit is what develops as we cultivate ourself and thus return closer to our primordial nature, but maybe that is not right at all.

 

Regarding the hun and po. I also do not have a very clear idea of these concepts but here is a description based on my very limited and very possibly faulty understanding. Hun shen (sometimes translated as the yang soul) is associated with the liver (wood element) and is the shen of the qi. Po shen (yin soul) is associated with the lungs (metal element) and is the shen of the jing. This seems to be in line with what you said above. Cognition (consciousness) brings about the po shen which causes jing to arise. Jing causes the Hun Shen to arise which in turn causes qi to arise. Qi leads to shen to arise. Shen (consciousness) in turn causes jing to arise. So this is a five element constructive and supportive cycle.

Shen -> Po -> Jing -> Hun -> Qi, and then back to shen again.

Well, that is one way I have seen it described anyway. The cultivation of jing, qi, and shen seem to be central in internal alchemy cultivation, but how exactly Hun and Po fit into the internal alchemy process I am not certain.

 

 

I'm even less knowledgeable on the spiritual realms according to Taoist doctrine, and there seems to be some variation on the description of these realms depending on the source as well, but I am not sure. I think though that as one cultivates to a higher level one is suppposed to naturally resonate with higher levels in the spritual realms that are on a par with one's level of attainment when one dies. One no longer has to reincarnate when one attains the higher heavenly realms. Well, something along those lines anyway.

 

Maybe someone out there can clarify all or some these concepts and how they fit together further. My knowledge of Taoist doctrine and theory is still pretty elemental and sketchy as you can see.

Edited April 19, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[King Kabalabhati]

In the Mo Pai tradition, according to Danaos Kosta's books, an immortal is someone who has succesfully fused Yin and Yang (heaven and earth) Chi in their dantien. This means they can take their Yang energy with them when their body dies, so they take their emotions and personality with them as well. There is no talk of a "spiritual embryo" though. Either it's a different technique or just the terms used are different.

[fatherjhon]

In the Mo Pai tradition, according to Danaos Kosta's books, an immortal is someone who has succesfully fused Yin and Yang (heaven and earth) Chi in their dantien. This means they can take their Yang energy with them when their body dies, so they take their emotions and personality with them as well. There is no talk of a "spiritual embryo" though. Either it's a different technique or just the terms used are different.

 

 

Eva Wong wrote something on this in Holding Yin, Embracing Yang but it is a direct translation without much commentary to explain what all the pretty metaphors are about.

 

I first came across "spiritual embryo" in a book on Da Mo's Muscle/Tendon Changing and Marrow/Brain Washing Classics by Yang Jwing-Ming, but it was explained that the advanced practice is for enlightenment and gave no details but a lot of instructions. It was more of a manual. That book dealt with external training and came out of the Buddhist tradition, so "spiritual embryo" might be an early Buddhist practice Taoism pick up and worked into its chigong. Someone that has worked with Buddhist style chigong might know something.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Eva Wong wrote something on this in Holding Yin, Embracing Yang but it is a direct translation without much commentary to explain what all the pretty metaphors are about.

 

I first came across "spiritual embryo" in a book on Da Mo's Muscle/Tendon Changing and Marrow/Brain Washing Classics by Yang Jwing-Ming, but it was explained that the advanced practice is for enlightenment and gave no details but a lot of instructions. It was more of a manual. That book dealt with external training and came out of the Buddhist tradition, so "spiritual embryo" might be an early Buddhist practice Taoism pick up and worked into its chigong. Someone that has worked with Buddhist style chigong might know something.

 

Once Buddhism reached China there was a lot of interaction between Taoism and Buddhism in China.

The term spiritual embryo or fetus is definitely associated with Taoist internal alchemy, but it is possible that certain Buddhist traditions may have borrowed this term from Taoism or maybe a similar concept exists in some Buddhist traditions. Many Taoist alchemy texts contain this concept.

[manitou]

I am really blowing smoke here, because I don't know anything of any of this, from the Chinese traditional point of view.

 

But the term spiritual embryo does strike a chord in me. We must become as a child to be enlightened. We must lose our judgment, leave our minds totally open to receive and accept stimulus from the universe as it comes in; not to be furled in a mindset that is far away, or worried about tomorrow.

 

Even the great shaman the Nazarine said it. Something about being 'as a child' to enter the kingdom of heaven (which is here and now, to my thinking).

 

Perhaps the spiritual embryo concept stems from this idea. We truly are reborn into something different; we develop a burning flame inside, a flame which seems to have more importance to our individual lives than anything that happens on the outside.

[ShaktiMama]

I am really blowing smoke here, because I don't know anything of any of this, from the Chinese traditional point of view.

 

But the term spiritual embryo does strike a chord in me. We must become as a child to be enlightened. We must lose our judgment, leave our minds totally open to receive and accept stimulus from the universe as it comes in; not to be furled in a mindset that is far away, or worried about tomorrow.

 

Even the great shaman the Nazarine said it. Something about being 'as a child' to enter the kingdom of heaven (which is here and now, to my thinking).

 

Perhaps the spiritual embryo concept stems from this idea. We truly are reborn into something different; we develop a burning flame inside, a flame which seems to have more importance to our individual lives than anything that happens on the outside.

 

 

In my conversations with other women and in my own experiences, woman naturally creates a spiritual embryo when the kundalini starts to move and mature. Women don't speak of it much because it tends to get poo poo'd and ridiculed by the traditionalists.

 

I have also watched a flat bellied woman grow a belly that looked about 5 months pregnant during an exercise I was leading. It took about 5 minutes to manifest and was gone that evening.

 

s

[The Way Is Virtue]

[exorcist_1699]

A biological embryo is a product of an intercourse between a male and a female; a so-called spiritual fetus in Taoist alchemy is a product after qi and Shen of us having had their intercourse.

 

 

The term " spiritual " embryo is not so precise as it is not purely spiritual , it involves "assimilating" pre-heavenly qi from outside as the "seed" otherwise no " fetus" will arise to be nourished for many months to come in our body .

 

A man having a spiritual fetus does get some similar feelings as a woman gets conceived.

 

And because the seed originates from the external qi , which always has its limitless source, a spiritual one is not so short-lived as a biological one..

Edited April 22, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[starhawk]

Before I came to seek Tao, one of my favorite movies was 2001.

 

It still is

 

It alludes to many esoteric practices. Of course, it is science fiction.

 

The space body.

 

I think people should focus on cultivation before trying to answer what is at the top of the chart of inner luminosity. My two cents.

Edited April 22, 2011 by starhawk

[Dagon]

Nice and direct reply starhawk. Assuming is not knowing Knowing is only achieved through direct personal experience and reflection of that experience.

[exorcist_1699]

 

It alludes to many esoteric practices. Of course, it is science fiction.

 

The space body.

 

I think people should focus on cultivation before trying to answer what is at the top of the chart of inner luminosity. My two cents.

 

Likely some civilization in this universe already mix physical science (similar to our Greek + Western stuff) well with Qi-stuff ( Chinese+ Indian ( ?) ), without the bias tilting in favor of the materialist /rationalist view.., and theirs are therefore many times powerful than ours.

Edited April 22, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[ShaktiMama]

Nice and direct reply starhawk. Assuming is not knowing Knowing is only achieved through direct personal experience and reflection of that experience.

 

Experiential and empirical practice beats studying and talking theory any day.

[manitou]

Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will know what you believe.

 

 

Shaktimama, I just noticed your tag line beneath your response. I've never seen this better put.

 

This is exactly as I see it too. Shamanic perspective must include one leg of the tripod fixed firmly in what the person is currently manifesting. It tells us what their heart actually wants, despite what they say they want.

 

Beautiful picture, BTW...

[Mandrake]

and I think it is related to living enlightenment on a level that the Buddhists say is only possible for Buddhas at death.

 

This is completely wrong, and is not a view supported by either Daoism and Buddhism; there are many more steps after this to go through, and this is far from Buddhahood.

 

 

Mandrake

[ShaktiMama]

Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will know what you believe.

 

 

Shaktimama, I just noticed your tag line beneath your response. I've never seen this better put.

 

This is exactly as I see it too. Shamanic perspective must include one leg of the tripod fixed firmly in what the person is currently manifesting. It tells us what their heart actually wants, despite what they say they want.

 

Beautiful picture, BTW...

 

Thanks.

I just finished teaching a 2 hour class on line last night in a study group about Conscious Evolution and CO-Creation based on some of the philosophy of Barbara Marx Hubbard noted futurist and other contemporary philosophers like Bertrand Russell, Tiellhard Chardin,Buckminster Fuller and Abraham H. Maslow.

 

More than a half hour of it was spent leading kundalini meditations and giving shakipat. You are seeing an unretouched photo taken afterwards in the Shakti kundalini afterglow.I just took the red out of my pupils.

 

 

We are studying how to become a Conscious Citizen of the Universe and more productive stewards of Mama Earth.

[The Way Is Virtue]

From what I have seen:

Taoists cultivate through cultivating virtue, practices, and through studying doctrine and theory. (many traditions include chanting and worship/prayer as well)

Buddhists cultivate through cultivating virtue, practices, chanting, and studying sutras and the dharmma. (many traditions include prayer and worship as well)

Hindus cultivate through cultivating virtue, practices, chanting, prayer, worship of the divine, and reading scriptures.

Christians cultivate through cultivating virtue, practices, prayer, devotional singing, worship of the divine, and reading scripture.

Etc, etc...

 

IMO, we all have to start with where we are and work from there, even though 'where we are' may very much be a product of our current beliefs and understanding. As we progress we may find that certain practices or approaches that were helpful to us previously may no longer be needed, and we may then start adopting a different approach, but IMO we always have to work from where we are and with our own personal make up and current state of mind, and views, and beliefs, etc., at any given 'point in time'. As an example of what I am trying to get at, Gautama Buddha, apparently deeply understanding this, passed on the dharmma and passed on various ways to cultivate. Why did the Buddha pass on information about various practices and approaches and also universal and spiritual 'laws'? Depending on how one reads various scriptures such as the Bible or Hindu texts or Buddhist sutras and scriptures, etc., one can find guidance on practice and doctrine and theory. There are apparently many approaches, so if this is true, it would seem we would be well advised to not fall into the trap of looking down our noses at all other approaches and we should be careful to not automatically assume that our own personal approach is the only right approach or best approach, and all other approaches are faulty or useless. Sure there may very well be many useless or even harmful approaches and practices out there, but it would seem to me that we should at least be careful about being too quick to pass judgement on all other approaches that are different than our own. Who knows, we might just learn something or understand something that we weren't previously aware of. In the end, we ultimately each have to follow our own heart...

 

 

[Edit - Add later:]

I Re-read my reply above and realized it probably wasn't all that clear in regards to what I was trying to get at. A few comments were made previously along the lines of one should just mainly focus on 'practice', and it seemed to be implied that reading and thinking about and discussing theory and concepts and information about specific practices may not be so important or helpful.

 

I personally would say that reading or discussing and thinking can be a type of cultivation as well, if kept in balance. In my view it can help us to get some degree of understanding or at least a concept of what we are working on and how it might bring us closer to our goals, and it can also help to get us in a better frame of mind or preparedness for our other practices. What we can can get from books may be much less than what we can get from discussions directly with an accomplished teacher, since a accomplished teacher can keep the discussion limited to what is most beneficial to us at any given time, and can present things in a way that we personally can best relate to. However, we can still derive at least some such benefits from reading on our own and discussing with others as well, I think. It depends what one is reading and discussing.

 

I guess my point is that there are many aspects to cultivation (not just 'practice'), and different traditions may give different empahasis to these various different aspects, or approach them in different ways, as from what I can gather there definitely seems there can be different focuses in different traditions. The ulitmate end result may be similar or the same, or it may not be so similar at all. So, I think that we should not assume that 'everything really is the same' and thus everyone should take the same approach, or try to judge another approach based on what works for our approach. In general though, I think we can probably say that we should not neglect the importance of practice, but what is referred to as 'practice' can vary quite a bit in different traditions. Ok, maybe this is not really any clearer. I guess I would say that we should not neglect any of the various aspects of cultivation of our own particular system or tradition. Specific 'practices' are just one aspect only of overall cultivation, IMO.

 

 

Best wishes to all...

Edited April 23, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[ejr1069]

I am really blowing smoke here, because I don't know anything of any of this, from the Chinese traditional point of view.

 

But the term spiritual embryo does strike a chord in me. We must become as a child to be enlightened. We must lose our judgment, leave our minds totally open to receive and accept stimulus from the universe as it comes in; not to be furled in a mindset that is far away, or worried about tomorrow.

 

Even the great shaman the Nazarine said it. Something about being 'as a child' to enter the kingdom of heaven (which is here and now, to my thinking).

 

Perhaps the spiritual embryo concept stems from this idea. We truly are reborn into something different; we develop a burning flame inside, a flame which seems to have more importance to our individual lives than anything that happens on the outside.

 

Connecting to your inner child...I have been trying to do this for the better p;art of a year now.

[manitou]

Connecting to your inner child...I have been trying to do this for the better p;art of a year now.

 

Nice connection you made there. The inner child.

 

I have to honestly tell you that at the age of 64 my inner self grows younger and younger, this started to happen a few years ago. Things I would never have found funny before tickle me to death; I was brought up in such an anal world, that there's been a wonderful breakout to the silly.

 

I do believe a lot of it has to do with the ongoing spiritual quest. As don Juan Mateus used to tell Carlos Castaneda, there comes a point where the teachings are no more, and nature then becomes the teacher. Nature then leads us into the situations we need for our particular psyches to find what it is they have been looking for.

 

I believe part of the lightness of character and lack of worry comes from feeling down deep in the bones that the Universe is a friendly place, even though we may not be able to see it sometimes. I'm not talking about cockeyed optimist stuff. I'm talking about the levels of awareness that are emerging even as we speak. As low as it seems that mankind is sunken to new lows - we can't forget that there's an opposite in the dynamic that knows that mankind is also stretching to new highs. We are part of that trend, the stretch upward. It's just that it's not sexy for the news to report that stuff.

 

It's so easy to be cynical. It sounds so smart to be critical. People laugh at you when you express the light or the enlightened thought. As it says in the Tao, paraphrasing, I alone am muddled with no opinion; the fools are luminous.

[deci belle]

This is completely wrong, and is not a view supported by either Daoism and Buddhism; there are many more steps after this to go through, and this is far from Buddhahood.

 

 

Mandrake

 

When you know there is nothing whatsoever being, known and knowing— there's your spiritual embryo. The experience is universal, yet different for each individual. Suddenly, in the vastness of cosmic space, it hovers in stillness. The embryo is symbolic of a vision— the first indication of inconceivable existence outside the matrix of the primal organization. In taoist terminology, what follow is the "ten months" of incubation.

 

After a long time, decades— there is a solidification of maturity and one can begin to manifest inconceivable activity unbeknownst to others in everyday ordinary affairs— in itself a far cry from evolution leading to buddhahood.

Edited April 26, 2011 by deci belle

[manitou]

When you know there is nothing whatsoever being, known and knowing there's your spiritual embryo. The experience is universal, yet different for each individual. Suddenly, in the vastness of cosmic space, it hovers in stillness. The embryo is symbolic of a vision the first indication of inconceivable existence outside the matrix of the primal organization. In taoist terminology, what follow is the "ten months" of incubation.

 

After a long time, decades there is a solidification of maturity and one can begin to manifest inconceivable activity unbeknownst to others in everyday ordinary affairs in itself a far cry from evolution leading to buddhahood.

 

 

It seems like what you're saying here is that the spiritual embryo can also be born at the point in time where we realize there is no 'external' God, we've come full circle on that too. There's a point in time when we break out in laughter because we realize that in one sense, all our reading and all our studying has led us right back to the beginning, where we started. It's like it's been all for naught, except that's not quite true either. What we've done is eliminated the false ideas that were introduced to us early on. It's after this point of laughter that we can totally turn ourselves over to Life and ride it without concern, seeing the signs along the way; knowing when to act, when not to act. Our timing takes on an impeccability that was missing before. As many have said, 'Life becomes the teacher'.

 

P.S. Deci - I take it you work with sound?

Edited April 26, 2011 by manitou

[lino]

A biological embryo is a product of an intercourse between a male and a female; a so-called spiritual fetus in Taoist alchemy is a product after qi and Shen of us having had their intercourse.

 

 

The term " spiritual " embryo is not so precise as it is not purely spiritual , it involves "assimilating" pre-heavenly qi from outside as the "seed" otherwise no " fetus" will arise to be nourished for many months to come in our body .

 

A man having a spiritual fetus does get some similar feelings as a woman gets conceived.

 

And because the seed originates from the external qi , which always has its limitless source, a spiritual one is not so short-lived as a biological one..

 

It's not a "spiritual fetus" it is mass spead out. I saw a

a copy of Dies "Daylight" compress to be visible to

conventional sight.