That Tan Tien thing

[Audiohealing]

So I've been doing chi kung and meditating diligently for the past 4 weeks now and am starting to get a good tangible feeling of chi which I am immsenly happy about.

 

However, I've never felt my Tan Tien being "warm" or "tingly" or activated even upon focusing all my awareness in the area. I get somewhat of an effect when focusing directly behind the navel but isn't that something else?

 

I read somewhere that the "2.5 inches below the navel" thing was just a myth to hide the real truth that the tan tien is actually located at the navel. How does it differ from the spleen chakra?

 

Thanks

[xHSG]

So I've been doing chi kung and meditating diligently for the past 4 weeks now and am starting to get a good tangible feeling of chi which I am immsenly happy about.

 

However, I've never felt my Tan Tien being "warm" or "tingly" or activated even upon focusing all my awareness in the area. I get somewhat of an effect when focusing directly behind the navel but isn't that something else?

 

I read somewhere that the "2.5 inches below the navel" thing was just a myth to hide the real truth that the tan tien is actually located at the navel. How does it differ from the spleen chakra?

 

Thanks

 

This is not a myth to hide the real location but a confusion about ancient writings which did make such claims. the problem was people forgot 2.5 or 1.5 inches below the navel refers to a location while lying face up, i.e. a few inches into the body cavity. There is also a real point called Ocean of Chi on the outside of the body below the navel sometimes called the false dan tian (tan tien), which is an important acupoint.

[effilang]

In my experience you will not feel any tangible sensation in the dan tien until the Qi that has been built there has finished clearing obstructions in the channels. Thats why it's normal to first feel Qi in the meridians and also get a lot of spasms and shakes, while the charge in the LTT is spreading around to take care of the most immediate issues.

 

Once the body has reached a certain balance, i feel it then concentrates in the tan tien to proceed towards opening the micro cosmic orbit.

 

This progression may be different for everyone, because we are so individual in our compositions, but this is my experience.

 

I have felt though that when the Qi is in the limbs and torso, it is not concentrated in the LTT, and when it is concentrated in the LTT it is not entirely in the limbs. Maybe this might have something to do with the method of breathing, Yin vs Yang, leading the Qi to the LTT vs out to the Limbs.

 

If you feel it in the limbs this is good, especially if/while you're doing external moving exercises. But always do a little sitting meditation afterwards (or a lot) using reverse breathing, to bring the Qi from the extremities back to the LTT, so the charge does not dissipate and can build for the microcosmic breakthrough.

 

You don't need to do anything special. Just be aware of the Tao, be aware of the interconnectivity of everything and everyone and the Qi will build on it's own. Add sitting meditation to that and simple Zhang Zhuang and with persistence you will achieve good results.

 

Some people who are not even spiritual or undertake any sort of practices can have an accident and suddenly attain a level of development comparable to people who have been meditating arduously for years.

 

It's this, it's that, it's all of the above... Just pick one thing, make sure you include sitting meditation and keep doing it and things will happen.

Edited April 19, 2011 by effilang

[Wells]

This is not a myth to hide the real location but a confusion about ancient writings which did make such claims. the problem was people forgot 2.5 or 1.5 inches below the navel refers to a location while lying face up, i.e. a few inches into the body cavity. There is also a real point called Ocean of Chi on the outside of the body below the navel sometimes called the false dan tian (tan tien), which is an important acupoint.

VERY INTERESTING! Could you please quote a belivable source who says that the dan tian is really exactly behind and not under the navel (while standing )?

It would make more sense to me than the "traditional" location, because the Ming Men ("Door of Life") is located just beneath the two kidneys, and exactly opposite the navel.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Dorian Black

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yang Jwing-Ming has some interesting explanations for what the dantiens physically and where to find them.

 

He says they are where a ton of nerves and receptors are, that generate a ton of bio-electricity and life. So, the brain jumps out as one. The heart\chest region. And then the digestive track. A BUNCH of stuff going on that generates energy.

 

The thing about the lower dantien is that it is also the physical center of gravity, so it'd make sense that there would be some "stuff", both energetically and physically there.

 

There is also a "real" and a "false" dantien. The "real" one being inside your body, the center, there energy can actually be stored and worked with. The "false" one, if I recall correctly, was a point somewhere below the navel, most often associated with acupuncture (which is why it became so easily mistaken for the actual one, because more people read and passed around acupuncture books than they did working with their own body), that energy could pass through (like the microcosmic orbit) but not be used to store energy.

 

But that's just what I recall from one or two of his books (a lot of them reprint info, so I'm sure this info is in a couple of them).

[Jetsun]

This is not a myth to hide the real location but a confusion about ancient writings which did make such claims. the problem was people forgot 2.5 or 1.5 inches below the navel refers to a location while lying face up, i.e. a few inches into the body cavity. There is also a real point called Ocean of Chi on the outside of the body below the navel sometimes called the false dan tian (tan tien), which is an important acupoint.

 

After all these years I thought they all meant a few inches below the navel not a few inches into the body, but having the dan tien on the level of the navel does make more sense as that is where the umbilical chord was so at one point in our lives that area must have been energetically open.

[Birch]

"Some people who are not even spiritual or undertake any sort of practices can have an accident and suddenly attain a level of development comparable to people who have been meditating arduously for years."

 

 

Huh. And I figured it was worth doing (meditation) anyway. Bum choice! How awful the accident for the person who wasn't looking! What was the person who wasn't looking for it looking for then? I'm serious.

 

I enjoy meditation, only because I enjoy the silence:-) And it's not the be all and end all. Sort of like getting offline from time to time But then - to take the allusion further - you get back online. Then what? Huh.

 

I reckon we're (speaking for myself) looking to wake up from whatever we do not wish to experience. Otherwise, well? IMO I reckon all that sh*t about sitting around rivers is pretty spot on. I reckon many wakings up await us. Not just one.

 

But it all does seem to me to be going boomshacka with the waking up stuff right now. I mean, have you been offline recently??

 

Edit to make topic:

 

As far as I can figure, LDT is one of your neurosystems (to not utter the word "brain) and as long as you starve it (or feed it cr*p l) then indeed, that is what it will do for you. But if you start paying attention to it, feeding it with your awareness, attention and energy, then it will (re)start doing for you what it's designed for :-) It might not always coincide with the rest of you. I think that's quite a dangerous part of developing it.

Edited April 20, 2011 by -K-

[styx_oarsman]

This is not a myth to hide the real location but a confusion about ancient writings which did make such claims. the problem was people forgot 2.5 or 1.5 inches below the navel refers to a location while lying face up, i.e. a few inches into the body cavity. There is also a real point called Ocean of Chi on the outside of the body below the navel sometimes called the false dan tian (tan tien), which is an important acupoint.

 

I'm really happy to hear this because I've been doing sitting meditation for a couple of months and I've come to a point where I can feel warmth around and "inside" my navel area - and I was wondering why I don't feel it more in my underbelly instead. I figured I was doing something wrong... So, thanks for clearing this up for me

[joeblast]

After all these years I thought they all meant a few inches below the navel not a few inches into the body, but having the dan tien on the level of the navel does make more sense as that is where the umbilical chord was so at one point in our lives that area must have been energetically open.

the umbilicus is its own thing, its not "that point" to which we're referring - and its both about 2 inches below the center of the umbilicus (qihai according to my acu-point finder, on me ) and inside front to back in proportion of 3 to 7 (taoist yoga, luk.) the qihai point is merely the external CV point - focusing qi there will merely serve to focus qi on the CV (filling, as it were) but the real location doesnt automatically flood (or, "flow elsewhere," as Yi directs qi...) as long as you "keep the center" well in practice

[effilang]

[Non]

This is not a myth to hide the real location but a confusion about ancient writings which did make such claims. the problem was people forgot 2.5 or 1.5 inches below the navel refers to a location while lying face up, i.e. a few inches into the body cavity. There is also a real point called Ocean of Chi on the outside of the body below the navel sometimes called the false dan tian (tan tien), which is an important acupoint.

 

 

OOOOOOkokokok...

 

So You're saying the "real dan tien" is basically at the level of the belly button (navel) correct? And that it was confused with the acupoint Qihai which is 2.5 inches inferior to the belly button/navel, while the real dantien is just 1.5-2.5 inches INTO the body at the level of the navel.

 

IS THIS CORRERERECTT??T??

[Non]

the umbilicus is its own thing, its not "that point" to which we're referring - and its both about 2 inches below the center of the umbilicus (qihai according to my acu-point finder, on me ) and inside front to back in proportion of 3 to 7 (taoist yoga, luk.) the qihai point is merely the external CV point - focusing qi there will merely serve to focus qi on the CV (filling, as it were) but the real location doesnt automatically flood (or, "flow elsewhere," as Yi directs qi...) as long as you "keep the center" well in practice

 

Alright nvm.

 

Than IMO I think Yang Jwing Ming is just trying to make big bucks talking about a "real dan tian".

 

Nobody confused the dan-tien, it was always at the Qihai point few inches into the body, nobody thought it was at the mere surface of the belly.

 

I was always taught it was at the level of Qihai about 2-3 inches inside the belly. Never was I told it was just "qihai at the surface of the belly".

 

Yang Jwing Ming makes it seem like everyone was being taught this but I don't ever see anyone say that it isn't 2-3 inches inside the belly.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Non

[Dagon]

The fire goes there, once you feel your chest ablaze.

[Mark Foote]

So I've been doing chi kung and meditating diligently for the past 4 weeks now and am starting to get a good tangible feeling of chi which I am immsenly happy about.

 

However, I've never felt my Tan Tien being "warm" or "tingly" or activated even upon focusing all my awareness in the area. I get somewhat of an effect when focusing directly behind the navel but isn't that something else?

 

I read somewhere that the "2.5 inches below the navel" thing was just a myth to hide the real truth that the tan tien is actually located at the navel. How does it differ from the spleen chakra?

 

Thanks

 

My take is that the tan-t'ien is the point around which the psoas reciprocates with the extensors. There are ligaments associated with the rectus, oblique, and transverse abdominals that meet equally behind the surface of the lower abdomen; opposite this meeting point, the sacrum is moving forward and back, side to side, and on the tilt along the lines of the sacro-tuberous ligaments left and right. The activity generated by the stretches of the sacrospinous in the hamstrings and quads stretches the ilio-tibial, and generates activity in the sartorious muscles to turn the pelvis left and right. Free movement of the sacrum facilitated by the engagement of the ilio-lumbar ligaments in inhalation and exhalation causes activity in the legs that returns in this way to the extensors, up the back of the spine in three sections to the temporal bones and the parietals, where the nerves control the rhythm of the fluid that causes the sacrum to move. The stretch that generates action in the extensors causes reciprocal stretch and action in the psoas muscles, and the place around which this activity turns is the tan-t'ien.

 

Kate, did you see my write, "waking up and falling asleep"? For me, waking up and falling asleep seem to be about the same thing.

 

I agree with Effilang, "You don't need to do anything special. Just be aware of the Tao, be aware of the interconnectivity of everything and everyone and the Qi will build on it's own." I finally got some words I like about that, like ants on a page, they arranged themselves for my eyes:

 

"Dogen said: "To study the way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self."

 

Simply by being where we are, we can come to forget the self. The sense of place engenders an ability to feel, and each thing we feel enters into the sense of place- even before we know it.

 

This being where we are with each thing, even before we know it, is shikantaza."

 

Hope you like that.

[gendao]

VERY INTERESTING! Could you please quote a belivable source who says that the dan tian is really exactly behind and not under the navel (while standing )?

It would make more sense to me than the "traditional" location, because the Ming Men ("Door of Life") is located just beneath the two kidneys, and exactly opposite the navel.

Page 22 of Foundations of Internal Alchemy mentions this "Southern Lineage" interpretation, as well as several others...

 

In Opening the Dragon Gate, another possibility is introduced in which the dantian's location varies holographically with your latitude on the planet. Therefore, when at the equator - it would shift towards the level of the navel. But the further north you move, the further down on your body your dantian would drop.

Since Daoism originated in Northern China - the dantian would be a bit below the navel at that latitude. Whereas in Southern China, it might be up closer to the navel (according to this postulate).

 

The other factor is that traditionally, you only start off with an "empty" xiatian and have to actually "build" a dantian there. Which takes a long time and so you wouldn't likely sense anything there to begin with for a long while..

Edited April 21, 2011 by vortex

[Maddie]

Page 22 of Foundations of Internal Alchemy mentions this "Southern Lineage" interpretation, as well as several others...

 

In Opening the Dragon Gate, another possibility is introduced in which the dantian's location varies holographically with your latitude on the planet. Therefore, when at the equator - it would shift towards the level of the navel. But the further north you move, the further down on your body your dantian would drop.

Since Daoism originated in Northern China - the dantian would be a bit below the navel at that latitude. Whereas in Southern China, it might be up closer to the navel (according to this postulate).

 

The other factor is that traditionally, you only start off with an "empty" xiatian and have to actually "build" a dantian there. Which takes a long time and so you wouldn't likely sense anything there for a long while..

 

You know thats very interesting, because when I lived in Alaska my dan tien felt lower down. Now that I'm in Texas it feels slightly higher... weird.

[Wells]

Page 22 of Foundations of Internal Alchemy mentions this "Southern Lineage" interpretation, as well as several others...

Thanks!

In Opening the Dragon Gate, another possibility is introduced in which the dantian's location varies holographically with your latitude on the planet. Therefore, when at the equator - it would shift towards the level of the navel. But the further north you move, the further down on your body your dantian would drop.

Allright, that seems a little strange to me...

The other factor is that traditionally, you only start off with an "empty" xiatian and have to actually "build" a dantian there. Which takes a long time and so you wouldn't likely sense anything there for a long while..

Yea, I heard about that.

On the other hand, in every Taichi system I know of, tan tien is not only aready there but it contains the "original" chi or "One Chi", what is the source of our being. This energy declines in life until it burns out and you age, get sick and finally cease to exist and the central goal is it to replenish this energy to it's primordial state. But the sources and statements about the position change between the two that were mentioned.

(this one is interesting:

http://www.taijiquandao.com/03paginasingles/01introduction/10thedantian.htm )

 

However, in TCM the original or primordial energy is called "jing" (pre-natal jīng, also sometimes called yuan qi) and it is supposed to be located between or in the kidneys and this energy is also related to ming meng.

 

So, when I put the clues together, in my opinion the position right between navel and ming meng seems more likely to be the truth than the other position.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Dorian Black

[Birch]

My take is that the tan-t'ien is the point around which the psoas reciprocates with the extensors. There are ligaments associated with the rectus, oblique, and transverse abdominals that meet equally behind the surface of the lower abdomen; opposite this meeting point, the sacrum is moving forward and back, side to side, and on the tilt along the lines of the sacro-tuberous ligaments left and right. The activity generated by the stretches of the sacrospinous in the hamstrings and quads stretches the ilio-tibial, and generates activity in the sartorious muscles to turn the pelvis left and right. Free movement of the sacrum facilitated by the engagement of the ilio-lumbar ligaments in inhalation and exhalation causes activity in the legs that returns in this way to the extensors, up the back of the spine in three sections to the temporal bones and the parietals, where the nerves control the rhythm of the fluid that causes the sacrum to move. The stretch that generates action in the extensors causes reciprocal stretch and action in the psoas muscles, and the place around which this activity turns is the tan-t'ien.

 

Kate, did you see my write, "waking up and falling asleep"? For me, waking up and falling asleep seem to be about the same thing.

 

I agree with Effilang, "You don't need to do anything special. Just be aware of the Tao, be aware of the interconnectivity of everything and everyone and the Qi will build on it's own." I finally got some words I like about that, like ants on a page, they arranged themselves for my eyes:

 

"Dogen said: "To study the way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self."

 

Simply by being where we are, we can come to forget the self. The sense of place engenders an ability to feel, and each thing we feel enters into the sense of place- even before we know it.

 

This being where we are with each thing, even before we know it, is shikantaza."

 

Hope you like that.

 

 

Thanks Mark! Nicely written. I've been doing a "double wake-up" the past few mornings because my first experience upon waking has been something like "ugh" so I sort of backtrack and change it before I actually do get up so that "ugh" does not become the color of the day.

 

Dan Ariely (sp?) has a weird experiment about this stuff in one of his latest irrationality books. It's weird because he openly admits to manipulating (ok, he calls it "priming") people into the required experimental condition. As an aside, I wonder if he wonders about how ethical (or just plain weird or kooky) that is?

 

Anyway, I guess my double-wake-up is sort of cheating with respect to the terms you put down in your writing. Yeah, a kind of avoidance. But who knows what my "ugh" idea/feeling comes from in the first place? It could be something really pointless and unimportant.

 

Pointless killing the day because I have some strange desire for acceptance of everything. That in itself is sort of weird. A desire for acceptance! What do you think? I'm not a skilled enough notation meditator to reach back into the sequence preceding my waking up to figure it out. I can do it ok if I'm awake already, just not through the transitions so I can't say if it is really "the same" as falling asleep.

 

Sorry for falling off topic. To get back on it. Given the adage about "blood following qi", it might be a safe pick to focus on certain areas and not others. My acupuncturist told me I was too much in my head (again, dammit). I believe it was also Yang Jwing Ming who theorized about people in Northern hemispheres having more qi in their heads vs people in the Southern hemisphere having more qi...well

[Mark Foote]

Thanks Mark! Nicely written. I've been doing a "double wake-up" the past few mornings because my first experience upon waking has been something like "ugh" so I sort of backtrack and change it before I actually do get up so that "ugh" does not become the color of the day.

 

Dan Ariely (sp?) has a weird experiment about this stuff in one of his latest irrationality books. It's weird because he openly admits to manipulating (ok, he calls it "priming") people into the required experimental condition. As an aside, I wonder if he wonders about how ethical (or just plain weird or kooky) that is?

 

Anyway, I guess my double-wake-up is sort of cheating with respect to the terms you put down in your writing. Yeah, a kind of avoidance. But who knows what my "ugh" idea/feeling comes from in the first place? It could be something really pointless and unimportant.

 

Pointless killing the day because I have some strange desire for acceptance of everything. That in itself is sort of weird. A desire for acceptance! What do you think? I'm not a skilled enough notation meditator to reach back into the sequence preceding my waking up to figure it out. I can do it ok if I'm awake already, just not through the transitions so I can't say if it is really "the same" as falling asleep.

 

 

Hi, Kate, hope folks don't mind if we stroll sideways along the thread; upside down, perhaps! I too feel like these mornings as winter finally becomes spring are especially challenging, there's a nice word for it.

 

Mostly I am looking for a freedom of awareness before I fall asleep, yet I also find I can't really shake off sleep without a freedom of awareness. I have to let go, but it's not a letting go I can do, I'm sure you know what I mean- when it's challenging, it's challenging!

 

Returning right-side up for a moment, the utility of the tan-t'ien is in the sense of pitch, yaw, and roll wherever consciousness takes place; that is rooted in the tan-t'ien I think, even if the mind is not with the tan-t'ien, as Chen Man-ch'ing prescribed it should be for the most benefit. This morning I finally recalled the ability to feel, an ability moving like a path under the feet of my consciousness, and it was good.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Mark Foote