Eastern traditions vs Western traditions

[Non]

So my friend was telling me that since I live in the West it might be better to practice something like Golden Dawn (Hermetics) stuff instead of Eastern traditions which seem more geared towards non-Western thinking. He said GD is better for westerners because it's more sensorial oriented, and eastern traditions are just less practical here in the West and is even becoming so in the East as China is getting even more capitalist than the US.

 

I said well...GD stuff seems very much like magickal, which I like but right now I want to get into the basics. Eastern traditions seem more self reliant, he agreed.

 

So what do you guys think? I may get into GD stuff but later.

 

I also do have a copy of Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon. ALl in all it seems more hands-on type of stuff than Eastern traditions, which are focused on cultivating.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Non

[nickyro]

Hi.

I was into GD/magick/bardon a few years ago.

To say the truth, this stuff is now outdated because they had fake western esoteric materials, and only a small access to eastern esoterism back in the late XIX century.

When further knowledge came from india those western school greatly increased their level and changed their teachings (the AA has a huge yoga part).

The question is, do you want to evolve spiritualy or be able to read tarot cards which doesnt even work and look badass with useless theorical kabbalah.

 

Nowadays, there are much better systems available (AYP/KAP/R.Bruce...).

Edited April 24, 2011 by nickyro

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Sloppy Zhang]

First and foremost, you should practice what resonates with you. Trust me, a system (or ANYTHING) can make the "most sense" to study, but if it doesn't resonate with you, it ain't gonna happen, and you're just going to waste your time. Find something that you like, and stick with it, even if you don't know how it (or even "if") it will work out (see my sig for inspiration).

 

And that practice should be complete, which, for me, has two primary components: helps you handle ALL aspects of life, and outlines a CLEAR set of steps for how to better yourself and reach some sort of ultimate goal (enlightenment, unity with universal consciousness, etc).

 

 

Anyway, from a lot of research and reading and personal practice, I have come to a stunning conclusion- most of the paths have the same end goal.

 

I'll take IIH as an example- it is awesomely straightforward, and very easily accessible, not to mention has en entire paradigm and backup theory thanks to a lot of other writers.

 

The goal of IIH is union with the Godhead, all that good stuff which you'd get going through the chakras, culminating in than awesome realization of enlightenment.

 

However, it is not one of those "sudden realization" or "insight" schools. It builds. And it does so by getting you familiar with and practicing with all of those energies that are in the physical (the four elements), mental, psychic, and spiritual realms. I mentioned in the "6th Element" thread how, in IIH system, these elements correspond to chakras, and working with them through the IIH can equate to a Kundalini awakening.

 

Sure, when you are all enlightened, and fully united with the cosmos, it will all seem silly, all that word and study you did, because it will be so easy for you. But until you get to that point you're sitting there doing nothing! Literally, you're sitting there in a room facing a wall waiting for the bolt of lightening called enlightenment to come and get you. Maigicians think that is silly. When magicians want something, they go and get it.

 

The course of a magician takes them through the full deck of the tarot, which represents The Fool's Journey (hint: the magician is the fool!) They start at the beginning, clueless, and come full circle! (Not unlike many a concept which has come out of eastern thoughts!)

 

Wester magic focuses on ALL aspects of existence, high AND low. Some systems think that is pointless, that it is a trap and will keep you from realizing your true goal. If you think that, don't do magic. Western magic traditions feel there is value in learning the lower.

 

Read through the IIH, get the feel for it, then read through "Opening The Dragon's Gate". I, for one, found many a striking similarity, though obviously each one is through their own cultural lens.

 

Freeform made a post a long time ago about how some traditions "build up", and others take down. IIH builds up. Sometimes that is not for everybody.

 

Furthermore, if you want to get into that whole "fire method" vs "water method distinction", IIH is a fire method (though keep in mind it IS well balanced and includes ALL elements and ALL aspects of life).

 

Speaking once more to the whole cultural things- depends on the situation, depends on the situation, depends on the person. You can't just say "ah, you're a westerner, you must think this way, you should study this." In one of 5ET's videos about his revival of indigenous western tradition, he makes the point that western traditions have western cultural themes, symbolism, and messages, so culturally would be more relateable and easily understood conceptually, and I think that's a far better point, because honestly, a lot of eastern stuff is hidden behind cultural symbolism, languages, and implicit meaning. Not to mention fragmented and misunderstood enough as it is, then taken to the west in even smaller fragments by an even more distant audience.

 

But sometimes you need to move OUT of your box for you to get it, and sometimes you need something that will tell it like it is in plain ol', easy to understand, ENGLISH!

 

Western traditions give you a little bit of this, eastern traditions give you a little bit of something else. A complete tradition will have everything. A tradition that resonates with you will make you have more progress.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Sloppy Zhang]

Still it starts with Stillness and Concentration.

Some people like to avoid this and ask why things not work

and judge the thing interlectually.

Easy understanding for our mmorpg age : Do you want play mage, monk, priest, thief, warrior ect? Each class has its weakness in leveling and skilling and their strong point. In all case you choose to play.

 

Q

 

You make a lot of video game analogies

 

Not that that's a bad thing

[gendao]

Well, the proof is in the pudding. Are there any living masters of these Western esoteric traditions who have any tangible attainments? I don't think Aleister Crowley could even actually do anything "magickal," for instance.. So, color me skeptical.

 

There are at least definitely various masters of Eastern cultivation methods ranging from healers to Indian gurus and Chinese neigong masters who serve as living proof for these various methods.

Edited April 24, 2011 by vortex

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well, the proof is in the pudding. Are there any living masters of these Western esoteric traditions who have any tangible attainments? I don't think Aleister Crowley could even actually do anything "magickal," for instance.. So, color me skeptical.

 

There are at least definitely various masters of Eastern cultivation methods ranging from healers to Indian gurus and Chinese neigong masters who serve as living proof for these various methods.

 

Who do you have in mind for these living masters?

 

Color me skeptical, but how many people, when they discover they have a treatable form of cancer, go seek out these people, proteges of these people, or members of some such tradition to get energetic healing?

 

Color me skeptical, but for all the talk about mystical transcendence and being able to see into different realms and levels of existence, how many of them get divine aid to help find missing persons? Or have they transcended so much, they realize it's pointless to help?

 

I'm a skeptical guy. As far as I am concerned, a whole lot of NOTHING has been produced by ANYONE which could actually get someone to stop and think. (for the rational skeptics out there).

 

However, for most discussion purposes, I take two things as operating assumptions: 1) that this stuff is real, 2) there is a way for humans to do it.

 

I don't tend to throw this around because it distracts from most conversation, and otherwise I'd just sit here saying "bah, humbug" and sounding like a dick the whole time (every time I've brought the subject of skepticism up even slightly, it has not been well received, here or elsewhere), but if you wanna open the can of worms, that's all right

 

 

As for Mr. Crowley, I've heard conflicting things. I have heard that there was one instance in which he was levitating when lecturing to his students. And for some of their tests, they had to find a specific thing on the astral plane, come back, and describe it. Not only did their testimony have to match each others', it had to mach Crowley's. But whose to say with what scientific rigor those tests were administered. Then there's the whole binding satan attempt which supposedly failed and royally screwed him, but there are a lot of screwy things that went on in his life.

 

As far as modern masters, there are two people on http://forums.vsociety.net/, with the usernames Prophecy and Veos, who are supposedly very advanced students of yoga and of Bardon's material. Back in the early days of that board, they would show up at in real life gatherings and perform stuff. Apparently won over a large following, and cemented their status as legitimate as far as the forum goes. But a lot of those same students left, rationalized away the feats, and ultimately turned on the teachers. So they focus on their core group of students, teach some intro courses online, and the like. They are both pretty nice and generally responsive through the forum, maybe for those who care they may agree to be met in real life once more.

 

But IIH and western magick isn't really my thing, so I didn't really pursue the matter.

 

Anyway...

Edited April 24, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[ralis]

Who do you have in mind for these living masters?

 

Color me skeptical, but how many people, when they discover they have a treatable form of cancer, go seek out these people, proteges of these people, or members of some such tradition to get energetic healing?

 

Color me skeptical, but for all the talk about mystical transcendence and being able to see into different realms and levels of existence, how many of them get divine aid to help find missing persons? Or have they transcended so much, they realize it's pointless to help?

 

I'm a skeptical guy. As far as I am concerned, a whole lot of NOTHING has been produced by ANYONE which could actually get someone to stop and think. (for the rational skeptics out there).

 

However, for most discussion purposes, I take two things as operating assumptions: 1) that this stuff is real, 2) there is a way for humans to do it.

 

I don't tend to throw this around because it distracts from most conversation, and otherwise I'd just sit here saying "bah, humbug" and sounding like a dick the whole time (every time I've brought the subject of skepticism up even slightly, it has not been well received, here or elsewhere), but if you wanna open the can of worms, that's all right

 

 

As for Mr. Crowley, I've heard conflicting things. I have heard that there was one instance in which he was levitating when lecturing to his students. And for some of their tests, they had to find a specific thing on the astral plane, come back, and describe it. Not only did their testimony have to match each others', it had to mach Crowley's. But whose to say with what scientific rigor those tests were administered. Then there's the whole binding satan attempt which supposedly failed and royally screwed him, but there are a lot of screwy things that went on in his life.

 

As far as modern masters, there are two people on http://forums.vsociety.net/, with the usernames Prophecy and Veos, who are supposedly very advanced students of yoga and of Bardon's material. Back in the early days of that board, they would show up at in real life gatherings and perform stuff. Apparently won over a large following, and cemented their status as legitimate as far as the forum goes. But a lot of those same students left, rationalized away the feats, and ultimately turned on the teachers. So they focus on their core group of students, teach some intro courses online, and the like. They are both pretty nice and generally responsive through the forum, maybe for those who care they may agree to be met in real life once more.

 

But IIH and western magick isn't really my thing, so I didn't really pursue the matter.

 

Anyway...

 

 

As for Bardon, I think he put too much emphasis on "divine providence" as some absolute controlling force and rigid rules as to how one relates with "divine providence." That term was used in Europe at that time and was even used by Hitler in justifying his heinous acts.

 

His insistence that if one does not follow his instructions in IIH to the letter, then one will never accomplish KTQ etc. Honestly, there more efficient ways than IIH.

 

I only use certain parts of Bardon's writings that I find useful. Bradon's books are nothing more than compilations of his notes and lectures that were compiled by his secretary.

Edited April 24, 2011 by ralis

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[d'avid]

Hi Non,

 

Eastern practices that take care of the energyflow of your body-system can still be pursuited when discovering a Hermetic mindset.

 

Bardon's system is not without doubt, some things were transmitted encrypted and some others can really lead you astray.

 

I can recommend you to have a look at the B.O.T.A.-Tarot and the works of Paul Foster Case, maybe by starting with these books:

 

http://www.bookdepos...e/9780978053512 (is also showing a bridge to other alchemical traditions)

 

http://www.bookdepos...e/9780981897721

 

I do believe that one can get quite far with Tarot-Meditations without having to join a lodge.

 

 

This kind of work involves magic too, but goes straight to recognition of the One Self and puts you more and more in touch with your inner teacher, your true self.

 

 

Israel Regardie who broke his oath to publish the Golden Dawn material wanted every aspirant of a new fraternity to dedicate himself to psychoanalysis too, as he has seen some not so nice developments. If more energy is flowing down from the tree of life in your vessel, your subconcious patterns will be accented / strenghtened too (until you do something to change these patterns which present themselves woven into your reality) - the illusions (or neuroses) might first become stronger. Maybe the public Eastern ways of (body / energy) cultivation are safer.

 

All the Best on your path,

 

David

Edited April 24, 2011 by d'avid

[寒月 Hanyue]

So my friend was telling me that since I live in the West it might be better to practice something like Golden Dawn (Hermetics) stuff instead of Eastern traditions which seem more geared towards non-Western thinking. He said GD is better for westerners because it's more sensorial oriented, and eastern traditions are just less practical here in the West and is even becoming so in the East as China is getting even more capitalist than the US.

 

I said well...GD stuff seems very much like magickal, which I like but right now I want to get into the basics. Eastern traditions seem more self reliant, he agreed.

 

So what do you guys think? I may get into GD stuff but later.

 

I also do have a copy of Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon. ALl in all it seems more hands-on type of stuff than Eastern traditions, which are focused on cultivating.

 

I think this is an area that either appears simple to you, or complex as hell. I have been told the same, that trying to study Japanese esoteric systems was pretty pointless because the deep symbology that comes from growing up within a culture is not there. I disagree. The equivilent of these systems in the West uses just as much arcane symbology and most of which meant nothing to me when I was being taught it. You learn through experience and time, and a teacher helping to guide you, and helping to explain your experiences along the way.

 

Ultimately it was the descriptions and language of the Western traditions, as well as the majority of people attracted to the study of them that led me to look elsewhere.

 

As time goes on, I find that the deeper I go in the Chinese traditions I am studying the same thing, but now it makes sense, and the language does not feel so tainted with paranoia and arrogance.

 

I think it is generalisation.

Since there are schools in the west which are like those in the east.

 

This is also my experience and view. I used to feel a great divide bewteen East & West in the mystery schools, now I realise that both East & West have a variety of traditions, and the divide is how they approach the work, geography has little to do with it. It is more where they start you off on the circle and whether you begin by facing inwards or outwards.

 

Everthing still start with concentration and stillness.

 

Wholeheartedly agree on this as well.

 

But it would be still very interesting as the east provide obvious energy cultivating exercise.

Would be nice to hear expirience of a good cultivate Taoist making cross-magick doing a Golden Dawn Ritual or something Similar like calling Cernunos on western believe ground

or Futhark Rune

 

Q

 

The use of the right hand as a sword and used to energetically 'cut' shapes/patterns for healing and protection is found East and West in more traditions that I care to mention. The specifics get local cultural colour, but the heart is the same.

 

First and foremost, you should practice what resonates with you. Trust me, a system (or ANYTHING) can make the "most sense" to study, but if it doesn't resonate with you, it ain't gonna happen, and you're just going to waste your time. Find something that you like, and stick with it, even if you don't know how it (or even "if") it will work out (see my sig for inspiration).

 

Agree 100% But we have to be careful. There is also the saying 'teach what they want, because they know not what they need'. So sometimes what resonates is not what we need, it is simply what we want, which is why a teacher is required.

 

These days we can be oh so decadent when it comes to these things. We have so many options. Do I study a Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Tibetan, Nepalese, Burmese, Javanese, Hermetic, neo-shamanic, or wiccan system? Or any combination thereof. In the past you studied what you did because that was what you had access to, or you simply found yourself studying with a teacher, but you were not so aware of all these options. Of what other were doing, and whether the grass was greener.

 

For the most part I would simply say follow your heart, and try not to worry about it. Study something that interests you, if you keep going you will continue round the circle and find where things will lead you, and as you move you may find that another teacher or system comes along and takes you in another direction. But study what you have at your feet for now, and plunge its depths.

 

All the best,

[gendao]

Who do you have in mind for these living masters?

 

Color me skeptical, but how many people, when they discover they have a treatable form of cancer, go seek out these people, proteges of these people, or members of some such tradition to get energetic healing?

 

Color me skeptical, but for all the talk about mystical transcendence and being able to see into different realms and levels of existence, how many of them get divine aid to help find missing persons? Or have they transcended so much, they realize it's pointless to help?

 

I'm a skeptical guy. As far as I am concerned, a whole lot of NOTHING has been produced by ANYONE which could actually get someone to stop and think. (for the rational skeptics out there).

Yes, I know of someone who got cancer and went to a Chinese acupuncturist/herbalist for treatment instead of getting chemo. And fortunately, he did get cured that way.

 

And I think there's enough energy healers out there in the general population now using these methods that we all know of some cases like these (if not always so dramatic). They may vary in skill level and results - but I think there's at least a body of evidence large enough to support that there is some validity to these arts.

 

And of course, there's also many well-known Chinese & Indian masters - including guys like Wang Liping or the numerous gurus written about in Ram Dass's Be Love Now. I mean, just his personal accounts of his experiences with Neem Karoli Baba alone make Aleister Crowley sound like some totally lame D&D wannabe geek.

 

Whereas, I am not even aware of any professional "Hermetic" magicians who offer healing or other services. They have no measurable presence or body of evidence to speak of. I'm not saying there couldn't be a few exceptions here and there - but the Eastern methods just seem a lot more accessible and proven (with both past and present practitioners).

As for Mr. Crowley, I've heard conflicting things. I have heard that there was one instance in which he was levitating when lecturing to his students. And for some of their tests, they had to find a specific thing on the astral plane, come back, and describe it. Not only did their testimony have to match each others', it had to mach Crowley's. But whose to say with what scientific rigor those tests were administered. Then there's the whole binding satan attempt which supposedly failed and royally screwed him, but there are a lot of screwy things that went on in his life.

 

As far as modern masters, there are two people on http://forums.vsociety.net/, with the usernames Prophecy and Veos, who are supposedly very advanced students of yoga and of Bardon's material. Back in the early days of that board, they would show up at in real life gatherings and perform stuff. Apparently won over a large following, and cemented their status as legitimate as far as the forum goes. But a lot of those same students left, rationalized away the feats, and ultimately turned on the teachers. So they focus on their core group of students, teach some intro courses online, and the like. They are both pretty nice and generally responsive through the forum, maybe for those who care they may agree to be met in real life once more.

I'd never even heard his levitation rumor. But if he truly possessed that ability, I'm guessing he would have showcased it a lot more often.

 

Astral travel is somewhat impressive...but still not as impressive as working "magic" out in the real world. As in, actually healing people of physical ailments or something.

 

I don't know anything about Prophecy and Veos, but if they were using yoga as well - then it's hard to say exactly which methods actually developed their alleged abilities.

 

Anyhow, I'm not against any Western traditions - I just haven't seen or heard of too many advanced practitioners of them. If there are any, I'm all ears.

 

Although also, a lot of it seems like a lot of symbolic-ritualistic-ceremonial-fantasy-over-conceptual-in-your-head stuff that just doesn't personally appeal to me, either.

[Sloppy Zhang]

And I think there's enough energy healers out there in the general population now using these methods that we all know of some cases like these (if not always so dramatic). They may vary in skill level and results - but I think there's at least a body of evidence large enough to support that there is some validity to these arts.

 

But see it's all anecdotal. And there's a whole bunch if issues with that.

 

I don't know anything about Prophecy and Veos, but if they were using yoga as well - then it's hard to say exactly which methods actually developed their alleged abilities.

 

Well as they and their understudies explain it, the magic system that Franz Bardon (at the very least) teaches is a type of yoga, or rather, it gets the energy going in sometimes new, sometimes the same ways.

 

Here's what I wrote in the 6th element thread (from my understanding):

 

Basically, through the magick paradigm, as you work with the elements you work with their corresponding chakras, and as you master the elements (in ALL of their areas of influence: physically, energetically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually) so too do you master each chakra. So it's basically a form of kundalini awakening leading up to the point where you fully integrate with the cosmic consciousness through the crown.

 

But that's if you're interested in the Hermetics.

 

Anyhow, I'm not against any Western traditions - I just haven't seen or heard of too many advanced practitioners of them. If there are any, I'm all ears.

 

Prophecy, Veos, and Bardon are some of the best that I've come across who teach stuff that is actually meant to be used. The thing is, a TON of responsibility is on the student.

 

There is an articles section on that forum, there are some good articles by Veos and Prophecy. (here)

 

It's just interesting, because proponents of western stuff is like "it's way more accessible than eastern stuff", and proponents of eastern stuff are saying the reverse.

[gendao]

But see it's all anecdotal. And there's a whole bunch if issues with that.

Well, anecdotal and experiential. Which is what science is really too - just with more rigorously controlled settings.

 

But the simple reality is that the vast majority of common phenomena in life have been commonly-accepted based upon consistent mass anecdotal experience, yet never actually scientifically "proven."

 

For example, the sky is blue...sugar tastes sweet...etc.

Well as they and their understudies explain it, the magic system that Franz Bardon (at the very least) teaches is a type of yoga, or rather, it gets the energy going in sometimes new, sometimes the same ways.

 

Prophecy, Veos, and Bardon are some of the best that I've come across who teach stuff that is actually meant to be used. The thing is, a TON of responsibility is on the student.

 

There is an articles section on that forum, there are some good articles by Veos and Prophecy. (here)

 

It's just interesting, because proponents of western stuff is like "it's way more accessible than eastern stuff", and proponents of eastern stuff are saying the reverse.

Ok, but their system is not really a whole separate "Western" system then...as much of it is simply & directly kundalini yoga.

 

The more "Western" aspects of it seem to be the "Harry Potter" rites/spells/etc stuff that I remain rather skeptical of due to a seeming lack of a good body of evidence. For which Prophecy, Veos & Bardon would not really be good examples of anyways since they merged a lot of yoga into their training.

 

I guess, show me a real-life Harry Potter who developed tangible abilities primarily/exclusively from Western "magick," and then I'll be interested...

Edited April 24, 2011 by vortex

[markern]

Hi.

I was into GD/magick/bardon a few years ago.

To say the truth, this stuff is now outdated because they had fake western esoteric materials, and only a small access to eastern esoterism back in the late XIX century.

When further knowledge came from india those western school greatly increased their level and changed their teachings (the AA has a huge yoga part).

The question is, do you want to evolve spiritualy or be able to read tarot cards which doesnt even work and look badass with useless theorical kabbalah.

 

Nowadays, there are much better systems available (AYP/KAP/R.Bruce...).

 

AA?

[Sloppy Zhang]

I guess, show me a real-life Harry Potter who developed tangible abilities primarily/exclusively from Western "magick," and then I'll be interested...

 

 

The most stereotypically magic articles I can think of from those guys are this one on elemental magic which is from a class he taught, a lot of direct exercises (can download the full pdf on bottom of his post), a A treatise on elemental magic, more of a lecture, and this one on Ars Anima Gladius.

 

Though William Misetele tends to categorize the Bardonian magician almost as more of a shaman- a lot less rigid than the yoga flavored guys at vsociety. He seems fairly receptive and responds well to inquiry, might want to drop him a line.

 

And then I guess Rawn Clark has been up to a bit, his site has some new stuff on it, but I never got along with his flavor quite either (a bit on the kabbalistic side, perhaps?)

 

Anyway, if you're looking for capable people, those are who I would start with. Bardon's is one of the few whose system actually directly says "do this, get magic", and then actually tells you step by step what to do. You just gotta take the time to do it. Take a bit of time.

 

Anyway, sorry if it's all old news to you.

 

But if we start playing around with "what's eastern?" and "what's western?" then who knows. I recall taomeow making a post where she divided things up based on a language classification- object or process oriented languages, so in that sense India would get lumped in with Europe

 

So, I dunno, even the most "purely western" traditions that I can think of have some similarities or cross-pollinated with other cultures. People don't live in isolation, right? People moved around back then too.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[nickyro]

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Dagon]

I personally feel that all teachings have wisdom. It is up to you to sort it out!

 

I personally think the east has more evolved teachings because it has been around longer. Although at times it doesn't evolve much and is simply rehashed from the past.

 

I haven't looked much into hermetics so I can't say from that perspective.

 

I would read some of each and then pick out what I find to be true, then I would ask others what they thought about a particular idea that I wasn't certain of, so that I might further my own understanding and resolve on the matter.

 

What can you tell me about hermetics?

[Jetsun]

The Fourth Way has been presented in a way for the Western mind and there are teachings within that I don't find anywhere in Eastern spirituality. I have not met any masters of this system myself but the lineage recently released a book called "The Reality of Being" by Jeanne De Salzmann who was Gurdjieff's successor which is a collection of teachings from her notebooks which I regard as one of the highest level esoteric books I have ever read and it is clear to me that she was a highly conscious if not a completely realised master, yet most people have never even heard of her. I think there are western systems which are alive and which work you just need to look in the right places.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I personally feel that all teachings have wisdom. It is up to you to sort it out!

 

I personally think the east has more evolved teachings because it has been around longer. Although at times it doesn't evolve much and is simply rehashed from the past.

 

I haven't looked much into hermetics so I can't say from that perspective.

 

I would read some of each and then pick out what I find to be true, then I would ask others what they thought about a particular idea that I wasn't certain of, so that I might further my own understanding and resolve on the matter.

 

What can you tell me about hermetics?

 

A good article on the subject.

 

I suggest reading "Initiating Into Hermetics" by Franz Bardon. Has some theory in the beginning, but is much more focused on the practice and practical aspects of Hermetic development, so good if you want to see Hermetics in action.

 

Another good site.

 

You could also look at some Golden Dawn books, but they've been a bit too much for me to get into. If you really got on a Hermetics kick, find some by Regardie.

[Sahaj Nath]

okay,

 

i didn't thoroughly read every single post in this thread, but i think i read enough to throw in my spare change.

 

not sure about anyone else around here, but Seth Ananda and i share a similar background in the Western Esoteric traditions. that's where i really began my journey.

 

here's my very general opinion:

 

people who are overly concerned with acquiring "abilities" might do better studying a western magical system as opposed to an eastern mystical one. the thing about magick is that it concerns itself primarily with the acquisition of abilities. and YES, there are MANY practitioners who acquire them. i was one of them. one of my teachers, and author, David Allen Hulse, was amazing. another author, Lon Milo Du Quette, is also highly adept in the use of various 'abilities.' Du Quette is in the public eye, sort of. Hulse is closed door, but he openly gives interviews. i have had the privilege of witnessing the skills of them both.

 

the trouble with the western systems is NOT the efficacy of the practices, bur rather the lack of work ethic on the part of the practitioners. it actually works as a sort of filter to weed out folks and to cast a shadow on the entire realm of practices so that the societies very easily remain secret. the outer circles are filled with disaffected youth and childish adults who ultimately become the face of the westerns orders. they have no real understanding or skill, and that keeps the browsers moving along. but anyone who engages the practices with the same discipline as is standard for the eastern arts will see that they are very effective and not to be trifled with.

 

the ceremonies and incantations can often work in a manner that sort of hacks into the psyche to produce desired results. depending on the task, one false step can prove disastrous.

 

Aliester Crowley was on the level. Boleskine House was no fluke. the magicks that were conjured there were very real, just misunderstood by laypeople. Thelemites face East in their rituals. east by north-east. they do this because they honor Boleskine House as their Mecca, of sorts. Crowley didn't even complete the rituals of Abramelin the Mage while he was there, but he rendered the veils in such a way that Boleskine became the fulcrum of the Thelemic Current.

 

i ultimately abandoned the Western systems because they were obsessed with acquiring personal power and because so few had the intelligence to properly cultivate it. i was even granted access to the inner circles where the TRUE Thelemites commune, but their hunger for power exceeded their thirst for understanding. they wanted to win their games, whereas i longed to be defeated. defeated DECISIVELY. by something greater than myself.

 

i know western occultists who could impress the masses with their abilities, but they will ultimately face annihilation.

 

the magickal path is ultimately a dead-end. the mystical path IS the path. i chose the East because the distinction is far more clear and intuitive.

[Seth Ananda]

okay,

 

i didn't thoroughly read every single post in this thread, but i think i read enough to throw in my spare change.

 

not sure about anyone else around here, but Seth Ananda and i share a similar background in the Western Esoteric traditions. that's where i really began my journey.

 

here's my very general opinion:

 

people who are overly concerned with acquiring "abilities" might do better studying a western magical system as opposed to an eastern mystical one. the thing about magick is that it concerns itself primarily with the acquisition of abilities. and YES, there are MANY practitioners who acquire them. i was one of them. one of my teachers, and author, David Allen Hulse, was amazing. another author, Lon Milo Du Quette, is also highly adept in the use of various 'abilities.' Du Quette is in the public eye, sort of. Hulse is closed door, but he openly gives interviews. i have had the privilege of witnessing the skills of them both.

 

the trouble with the western systems is NOT the efficacy of the practices, bur rather the lack of work ethic on the part of the practitioners. it actually works as a sort of filter to weed out folks and to cast a shadow on the entire realm of practices so that the societies very easily remain secret. the outer circles are filled with disaffected youth and childish adults who ultimately become the face of the westerns orders. they have no real understanding or skill, and that keeps the browsers moving along. but anyone who engages the practices with the same discipline as is standard for the eastern arts will see that they are very effective and not to be trifled with.

 

the ceremonies and incantations can often work in a manner that sort of hacks into the psyche to produce desired results. depending on the task, one false step can prove disastrous.

 

Aliester Crowley was on the level. Boleskine House was no fluke. the magicks that were conjured there were very real, just misunderstood by laypeople. Thelemites face East in their rituals. east by north-east. they do this because they honor Boleskine House as their Mecca, of sorts. Crowley didn't even complete the rituals of Abramelin the Mage while he was there, but he rendered the veils in such a way that Boleskine became the fulcrum of the Thelemic Current.

 

i ultimately abandoned the Western systems because they were obsessed with acquiring personal power and because so few had the intelligence to properly cultivate it. i was even granted access to the inner circles where the TRUE Thelemites commune, but their hunger for power exceeded their thirst for understanding. they wanted to win their games, whereas i longed to be defeated. defeated DECISIVELY. by something greater than myself.

 

i know western occultists who could impress the masses with their abilities, but they will ultimately face annihilation.

 

the magickal path is ultimately a dead-end. the mystical path IS the path. i chose the East because the distinction is far more clear and intuitive.

 

Very nicely put as usual my friend

There are things I would like to add as well but parenting duties call me,

[ejr1069]

I gravitate towards Eastern practices. Tarot cards, psychic readings, witchcraft, etc just have no appeal to me. Not judging. Just not interested.