Eastern traditions vs Western traditions

[gendao]

YES, there are MANY practitioners who acquire them. i was one of them. one of my teachers, and author, David Allen Hulse, was amazing. another author, Lon Milo Du Quette, is also highly adept in the use of various 'abilities.' Du Quette is in the public eye, sort of. Hulse is closed door, but he openly gives interviews. i have had the privilege of witnessing the skills of them both.

 

Aliester Crowley was on the level. Boleskine House was no fluke. the magicks that were conjured there were very real, just misunderstood by laypeople. Thelemites face East in their rituals. east by north-east. they do this because they honor Boleskine House as their Mecca, of sorts. Crowley didn't even complete the rituals of Abramelin the Mage while he was there, but he rendered the veils in such a way that Boleskine became the fulcrum of the Thelemic Current.

 

i know western occultists who could impress the masses with their abilities, but they will ultimately face annihilation.

Could you give some examples of these "proven abilities" that were developed solely/primarily from these Western "magick" traditions?

 

Are we talking healing, psychic reading, manifestation, telekinesis, pyrokinesis, levitation, teleportation or what?

[Sahaj Nath]

Could you give some examples of these "proven abilities" that were developed solely/primarily from these Western "magick" traditions?

 

Are we talking healing, psychic reading, manifestation, telekinesis, pyrokinesis, levitation, teleportation or what?

 

hmm...

 

 

not sure what you mean when you say "proven" abilities, but i know what has been demonstrated to me and what i have done. but can i prove it? not likely.

 

as for "solely/primarily" from the west, again, i'm not sure what you mean. to my knowledge there is no occult practice that is the exclusive domain of any one tradition. Tibetan Bon and Taoist magics do the same things that the west does at the highest levels, just with different names and symbols & whatnot.

 

but with that being said:

 

healing as well as hexing or making sick, because they believe you must be skilled at both to truly understand what you are doing and what you are not doing. the only eastern practitioner i know who has ever taught that publicly is JAJ, who believes that you need to be able to distinguish your energies that create cancer and your energies that destroy it. otherwise you end up with new age beliefs like in the Reiki community which believes the energy that's transmitted can never be harmful, no matter what state the practitioner is in.

 

telekinesis is a big one. everyone practices this to some level of competency. generating ones own energy and focus to move light objects is an elementary level, which typically begins with something like causing the surface of a dish of water to ripple. but a high-level practitioner might conjure a being that is without our physical limitations (of acquiring and storing energy) and can therefore move much larger objects. btw, the "beings" that are conjured are not necessarily "beings" in the sense of being separate, individual lifeforms. but it doesn't matter. that's a much more involved discussion. for the purpose of this discussion, the incantation is what matters as it's a very different level of practice from just basic energy manipulation.

 

depending on what system you're studying, weather magick is an important practice as well. splitting clouds, gathering clouds, calling the wind and the rain. i've seen and have been taught a little weather magic, which is one of the reasons i practice outdoors and cultivate during thunder storms, even though almost every qigong master advises against it. you can really screw up your system if you don't know what you're doing. and if you're really unfortunate, you can generate a high enough concentration of ions to get hit with lightning. that would suck.

 

astral projection is a shifting and evolving practice. nowadays there are too many ways to remote view that DON'T build & refine the energy body, so a lot of groups are now more interested in your ability to perform an entire ritual in your mind's eye, with perfect clarity, and without moving the physical body. it sort of forces the quality of astral projection that's not necessarily present in other supposed acts of astral travel.

 

what else can i share:

 

inside a pyramid in Cairo, Crowley performed a ritual wherein which he conjured a light out of thin air and read from it. i've seen this done a few times.

 

i've participated in demon evocation and banishment, and i've seen crazy invocation/possession rituals.

 

i've seen other 'flashy' stuff, too. and of course, there are things i'll never speak of and certainly won't share on a public forum where there are so many kids running around trying to play DragonBall Z.

 

i've seen people screw themselves up, too. in the 80's and 90's there was a house in Berkeley where people would go to recover from failed works or unintended side-effects (like schizophrenia). and i saw a lot of unskilled young people who seemed almost eager to screw themselves up just to have something to brag about. anything to be in the club, i guess.

 

the real work was to ultimately make every act a magickal one. where you can manipulate the world with ease, where your will unfolded without effort, and where all occurrences communicate wisdom to you. you can read a crowd or a freeway or a weather pattern the way that new age people read tarot cards. you can knock an item out of a stranger's hand in order to set in motion a series of events that will lead two people to fall for each other, but might also lead to a tragic car accident if you're not paying attention. it gets pretty out there.

 

but i've pretty much seen all of this stuff up close in one way or another. all from western esoteric groups and practices.

 

 

this stuff is not for everyone, whether we're talking east or west. some folks can here the music, and some folks can't. most of the people on this board won't achieve much of anything, no matter how many years they put into it. others will work 10 times harder than i ever had to and still only barely achieve mediocrity.

 

Buddha said that everyone can awaken. Buddha lied. it's the most obvious thing in the world. but at least he got people trying to better themselves. *shrugs*

 

but without sufficient emotional fortitude and mental depth, without sufficient strength of will and detachment from the petty and mundane, you will peak before you are even halfway up the mountain.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Hundun

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Aaron]

Hello Folks,

 

When I was first starting out in psychology, I had a mentor who studied under Milton H. Erickson. I didn't know it at the time, but many of the forms of hypnosis that he taught me were apparently very similar to Qi practice, or at least I've been told. For instance after several decades of practice I can feel the energy in my body, channel that energy and remove pain with relatively little problem. I can also channel that energy to help me breathe better, stay alert, etc. Now much of this isn't considered Qi practice, but it's commonly used in hypnosis for people suffering from illness. In fact it's been found that hypnosis can dramatically improve one's success rate for surviving certain diseases like cancer.

 

If you are really interested in Western Traditions that can help you with channeling the energy in your body my first suggestion is hypnosis. No it wont help you to move objects with your mind or tell what the winning lottery numbers are, but it will help you to find a center of balance in your life and if needed manage illness and pain. Since then I've modified my own hypnosis practice in a way that it's more akin to meditation. I use no induction techniques, rather I concentrate on what I need to do and do it. This is one of the reasons I'm a firm believer that Qi practices are little more than our ability to consciously tap into the energy that is within and around us.

 

Here's a simple exercise I use to manage pain for instance, in fact I was taught it when I had a toothache. My mentor had me visualize the pain as a small ball of light. I would breathe in and as I breathed in I would visualize myself breathing in positive energy, as I breathed out I would visualize myself breathing out the pain and watching the pain go into a ball of light held within my hands. When the pain was gone I would push the energy away. Those first few times it took a bit of time to be rid of the pain, but after years of practice I can be rid of pain almost immediately.

 

As an aside, my mentor told me about Erickson having polio. Each morning he would do a little self-hypnosis in order to rid himself of the discomfort. If you read up on some of what Erickson describes, much of it is very Eastern minded, in particular the intuitive understanding that he developed about hypnosis. Much of what we know today and practice comes from his own investigation and understanding.

 

You might want to check it out, but then again, that might not be your cup of tea. Good luck regardless. My last piece of advice from someone who traveled the Aliester Crowley, Qabbala circuit at one point, Eastern Traditions are far more authentic in their understanding of the nature of reality. Western Traditions are a bit more flashy, but they lack substance. Just an opinion.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Just wanted to add that I have used hypnosis to help me survive a major life threatening injury. A few years back I was working on a job and a drill came around and hit me in the side of the head. The blow split my skull open to the bone and I severed an artery. I was able to maintain my calm and help to slow the flow of blood by visualizing it going someplace else. I was also able to block out the pain and shock and make it to the hospital in time to receive treatment. No exaggeration here, this really did happen. It took nineteen stitches to sew up the artery, which had been virtually shredded. The doctor didn't believe what happened. He was astounded that I was able to function in the condition I was in.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Twinner

[Jetsun]

So my friend was telling me that since I live in the West it might be better to practice something like Golden Dawn (Hermetics) stuff instead of Eastern traditions which seem more geared towards non-Western thinking. He said GD is better for westerners because it's more sensorial oriented, and eastern traditions are just less practical here in the West and is even becoming so in the East as China is getting even more capitalist than the US.

 

I said well...GD stuff seems very much like magickal, which I like but right now I want to get into the basics. Eastern traditions seem more self reliant, he agreed.

 

So what do you guys think? I may get into GD stuff but later.

 

I also do have a copy of Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon. ALl in all it seems more hands-on type of stuff than Eastern traditions, which are focused on cultivating.

 

In my opinion you may benefit from looking at a Jungian or western mythological perspective to the self a bit, investigate the process of 'individuation' and finding your 'true self'. I think it is easy for some people who are focussed on eastern spirituality to get caught up in denying the self or denying the needs of the self and trying to transform the self before you have even got to know and accepted it; this is a trap I fell in. The heroes journey described in many myths isn't about changing you or merging with the universe it's about rediscovering the real part of you and embracing all that you are and getting to know and love as much of this as you can:

 

 

 

 

 

No need to drop eastern spirituality just get the best of both worlds.

[Sahaj Nath]

In my opinion you may benefit from looking at a Jungian or western mythological perspective to the self a bit, investigate the process of 'individuation' and finding your 'true self'. I think it is easy for some people who are focussed on eastern spirituality to get caught up in denying the self or denying the needs of the self and trying to transform the self before you have even got to know and accepted it; this is a trap I fell in. The heroes journey described in many myths isn't about changing you or merging with the universe it's about rediscovering the real part of you and embracing all that you are and getting to know and love as much of this as you can:

 

 

 

 

 

No need to drop eastern spirituality just get the best of both worlds.

 

 

absolutely. well put.

[d'avid]

Jesus was rather into Western traditions:-)

 

There seems to be a plentitude of approaches in the West and in the East, so comparisons are based on generalisations.

 

I don't think it justs boil down to mysticism versus magic. I guess in both hemispheres there is specific tendencies of the lower personality to (appearantly) thwart (or foster) the unfoldment of the real self, f.ex. by inflation or denial of the lower desires. I believe that in the West the genuine mystery traditions have been kept secret most of the time which protected them to some degree against misuse and misinterpretation which still took place.

 

However I know only little about the Western traditions and still much less about the Eastern. So I cannot really compare. I know that the later influenced the former much. I don't think much should be said about the core of teachings on behalf of those beginning aspirants that are most conspicous due to their imbalances. I think first of all the self wants to clear one from what disturbs one's balance and therefore those complexes connected with the emotional wounds and traumas of the past may be stimulated / triggered which can take years to get through. That's what I observe with myself, that the intensity of such subconcious patterns overlaid my trials to move consistently on a coherent so called "occult" path. Israel Regardie wrote interestingly about such and Jung did as well.

 

In some writings Paul Foster Case mentioned that there is a difference in regards to the order of the elements in Western and Eastern methods that appear to be contradictory but can/will be reconciled from a higher perspective as just describing different angles.

 

@Hundun - if you like to share something of your experiences with David Allen Hulse, I was an interested listener. I was also interested in reading an interview with him. Maybe you have a good link at hand? I bought a book from him. I didn't understand much but I got a glimpse of his conciousness by watching his picture and was fascinated.

 

Feel free to correct me concerning content or language (English being my 3rd language only).

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

The main weakness in the western tradition is its incapability of discovering qi and those steps that lead to a high spiritual level, shen . In that case , the build-up of a reliable , practical spiritual system in the West is nearly impossible. What ,therefore leaves, is the reliance on the ways of visualization or witch spelling , which conversely lead them astray from entering the state of mindlessness, a pre-condition for initializing much high-quality type of qi.

 

Praying in the Christian hertitage seldom lead people to a state of mindlessness, even if sometime it does, its significance is totally ignored by them .The Westerners are just weak in manipulating emptiness or mindlessness .Yet " a state devoid of any minds is equal to emptiness exist everywhere" (from Mahāyāna- śraddhotpāda-śāstra 大乘起信論; ) The Chinese or Indians can handle emptiness, even endless layers of it, and their complicate relations with minds, no-minds, no no-minds without any difficulties.

 

A Wisdom popped up from mindlessness is something unthinkable for the Westerners..

 

However, it is only in the Greek-Western heritatge that electron, atom, particles , and their related characteristics ,are discovered, making it the only physical science that human beings have .

Edited April 30, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[d'avid]

to me you seem to compare with exoteric religion only. From what I know from the esoteric tradition of the West, the development of the mind is considered important so that it's erroneous beliefs about the nature of reality can be corrected and so that its powers that are at work anyway can be used to create more "mindful" circumstances and conditions for life to express itself.

 

Sometimes it seems to happen in some Eastern traditions that the personality and the subconcious structure of the aspirant are just bypassed rather than transformed. Discrimination is key to understand the unity behind all seeming separation.

 

I don't think that we know enough to make a useful comparison. Someone here in the forum declared the Western way to be the way of the fire and the Eastern way to be the way of the water. Why are such statements made? Such as all general statements should be carefully examined before being seeded into one's subconciousness.