Suppression and Repression of Sexuality

[bodyoflight]

Hello Bodyofflight,

 

This is why I can't take you seriously. You show no emotional or spiritual maturity. From examining your actions I know you lack the experience (in spiritual practice) to actually understand what you are talking about. Someone who has reached enlightenment would not behave the way you do, ask the things you do, or treat others the way you do. You are acting in a petty and immature way. The comments you make are more in line with what an adolescent would say, rather than an adult. Behave like an adult and I think people will start to consider what you say seriously.

 

Aaron

 

It is funny .. why does anyone have to take my words seriously?

 

Is your ego that fragile, Aaron, that you have to depend on others for validation of your own ego?

[Apech]

the act of suppression energies or the act of controlling energies has one very important functions..

 

on the path of spirituality, sooner or later, you will visit the upper worlds/dimensions in your astral/etheric forms..

 

the training of divine willpower by one suppressing or controlling sexual energies is necessary because you will be using your divine willpower to control your astral forms when navigating the upper worlds/dimensions..

 

if you can't even the basic functions of suppressing or controling your sexual energies, what hope do you have in controlling your astral forms when visiting the upper dimensions?

 

wakey wakey

 

You seem to have a very vertical view of spirituality. I wonder what is your practice and tradition?

[bodyoflight]

You seem to have a very vertical view of spirituality. I wonder what is your practice and tradition?

 

some of the most powerful spiritually people i have seen had training in a number of traditions and not just one..

[Aaron]

It is funny .. why does anyone have to take my words seriously?

 

Is your ego that fragile, Aaron, that you have to depend on others for validation of your own ego?

 

Hello Bodyofflight,

 

I think you're attempt to redirect the blame back on me, rather than examine your own actions and make the right changes to your behavior is just further proof of your spiritual immaturity. Spirituality is about growth and understanding the interconnected nature of all things. When one does this, whether they are Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim, they will inherently understand the need for compassion and tolerance. I see you, whether you believe it or not and I am not making these suggestions to be argumentative, but rather I feel you are walking on a very negative and harmful path that will only lead to pain and suffering. You only know what's on the surface, the currents underneath escape you. Humble yourself, open your mind to what others say and then you can begin to understand.

 

Aaron

[ralis]

some of the most powerful spiritually people i have seen had training in a number of traditions and not just one..

 

 

Exactly, what have you accomplished in the spiritual realms? I certainly would like to know.

[Aaron]

I agree with what your saying, to a certain point. I am not saying, that what you typed is unfounded. Though let's look at it from another point of view:

 

We're on a so-called "Taoist" or "spiritual" forum. We're not talking about the average Joe here. There is really no point in celibacy if your not regularly meditating.

Anyways: When a cultivator chooses to be celibate, he is sublimating those energies into something higher. Though I can say that when you start to (can't remember the Taoist term) "revitalize lost jing;" Sexual urges can actually increase. This is where some control over your urges is needed, if you want to actually progress further past that point.

 

As for modern day priests in the Catholic/Cristian church: There was a point in time where monks from the Western Religions actually meditated. So those rules would've made sense back then. Nowadays though, they aren't cultivating, so those desires or basal urges aren't being turned into something higher. This is where problems with molestation can happen. Meditation will also over time, "purify" negative habitual tendencies, from their consciousnesses. Therefore they're "brains are rewired," and they are likely not to repeat, much less even fathom of repeating past behavioural tendencies. So even thinking of such evil will not recur and they can even be repulsed of such behaviour and won't ever act on it again.

 

Of course though I'm talking of cultivators. People who have doing this thing for years.

 

Hello Jack,

 

I understand what you're saying. When I say celibate traditions, I am not just saying the Catholic Church, but also the Buddhist monasteries. Recently investigations by human rights organizations have reported a high incidence of abuse of boys in Buddhist monasteries in Sri Lanka. These groups do not believe that this abuse is restricted to Sri Lanka, but may be a world wide epidemic. Most victims of sexual abuse in these places will not come forward for fear of losing face. I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find that more often, especially within the Western world, we are finding that just as many deviants are entering Buddhist and other Eastern traditions as they are Christianity. We are also finding that meditation and prayer can only do so much. Sex is a very natural part of the human experience. Denying this experience will more often than not lead to deviant behavior, regardless of how spiritually advanced one is.

 

I understand that there is a belief that one can escape these things, either by reaching a greater state of awareness or prayer, but what is commonly held to be true, in almost every case, is that if one has deviant impulses, they will NEVER be able to be completely rid of them. They may be able to manage them better, but they are never completely gone.

 

This is the commonly held misconception about enlightenment, by the way. That once one reaches enlightenment that they will never have to be angry, sad, or even happy again, that somehow they can control these emotions and dictate which ones are allowed to occur. Well that's not true either. What happens is that you begin to understand the nature of your emotions, so that your existence is not dependent on them. You will still have these emotions, but you can allow them to occur without being invested in them. This means that if you are a deviant you will still have deviant impulses, even if you are enlightened, the problem though, is that unlike anger, sadness, or happiness, allowing these impulses to occur is often harmful to others... this is one of the reasons most traditions discourage the mentally ill from practicing. They know that meditation and practice will not get rid of mental illness.

 

So again, I understand what you are saying, but I think the evidence seems to prove that one cannot be rid of sexual desire, at least not completely. Sexuality is not something one can turn on and off like a switch. In fact sex is like a valve, if one does not release the pent up urges they will begin to suffer emotionally. Yes one may be able to hold it in and deny the effects for a period of time, but I have yet to see someone completely avoid the effects in the long term. This is akin to training a lion. The lion may appear to be tame, but a wise trainer understands that the nature or lion is still there and that merely training it to behave in a certain way, doesn't remove that nature.

 

Aaron

Edited April 26, 2011 by Twinner

[bodyoflight]

Hello Bodyofflight,

 

I think you're attempt to redirect the blame back on me, rather than examine your own actions and make the right changes to your behavior is just further proof of your spiritual immaturity. Spirituality is about growth and understanding the interconnected nature of all things. When one does this, whether they are Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim, they will inherently understand the need for compassion and tolerance. I see you, whether you believe it or not and I am not making these suggestions to be argumentative, but rather I feel you are walking on a very negative and harmful path that will only lead to pain and suffering. You only know what's on the surface, the currents underneath escape you. Humble yourself, open your mind to what others say and then you can begin to understand.

 

Aaron

 

pain and suffering is a part of life.. i am not a sado-masochistic who enjoys pain and suffering but the events of the past 2 years have taught me that when pain and suffering come, just take it as a test...

 

you seem to be afraid of pain and suffering.. it is understandable.. your human/animal ego is still in charge afterall..

[bodyoflight]

Hello Jack,

 

I understand what you're saying. When I say celibate traditions, I am not just saying the Catholic Church, but also the Buddhist monasteries. Recently investigations by human rights organizations have reported a high incidence of abuse of boys in Buddhist monasteries in Sri Lanka. These groups do not believe that this abuse is restricted to Sri Lanka, but may be a world wide epidemic. Most victims of sexual abuse in these places will not come forward for fear of losing face. I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find that more often, especially within the Western world, we are finding that just as many deviants are entering Buddhist and other Eastern traditions as they are Christianity. We are also finding that meditation and prayer can only do so much. Sex is a very natural part of human experience. Denying this experience will more often than not lead to deviant behavior, regardless of how spiritually advanced one is.

 

I understand that there is a belief that one can escape these things, either by reaching a greater state of awareness or prayer, but what is commonly held to be true, in almost every case, is that if one has deviant impulses, they will NEVER be able to be completely rid of them. They may be able to manage them better, but they are never completely gone.

 

This is the commonly held misconception about enlightenment, by the way. That once one reaches enlightenment that they will never have to be angry, sad, or even happy again, that somehow they can control these emotions and dictate which ones are allowed to occur. Well that's not true either. What happens is that you begin to understand the nature of your emotions, so that your existence is not dependent on them. You will still have these emotions, but you can allow them to occur without being invested in them. This means that if you are a deviant you will still have deviant impulses, even if you are enlightened, the problem though, is that unlike anger, sadness, or happiness, allowing these impulses to occur is often harmful to others... this is one of the reasons most traditions discourage the mentally ill from practicing. They know that meditation and practice will not get rid of mental illness.

 

So again, I understand what you are saying, but I think the evidence seems to prove otherwise. Sexuality is not something one can turn on and off like a switch. In fact sex is like a valve, if one does not release the pent up urges they will begin to suffer emotionally. Yes one may be able to hold it in and deny the effects for a period of time, but I have yet to see someone completely avoid the effects in the long term. This is akin to training a lion. The lion may appear to be tame, but a wise trainer understands that the nature or lion is still there and that merely training it to behave in a certain way, doesn't remove that nature.

 

Aaron

Aaron

 

i may not have reached enlightenment yet but at least i have the blessed opportunity to learn what true enlightenment is..

 

true enlightenment involves the death of your human/animal ego so that your divine ego will flourish..

 

once your human/animal ego dies, you will NOT have the same animalistic need for sex which you once had..

 

clearly you are talking nonsense

[ralis]

pain and suffering is a part of life.. i am not a sado-masochistic who enjoys pain and suffering but the events of the past 2 years have taught me that when pain and suffering come, just take it as a test...

 

you seem to be afraid of pain and suffering.. it is understandable.. your human/animal ego is still in charge afterall..

 

Instead of debating the facts of Twinner's post, you make accusations. Once again are you some lofty realized being who is above it all?

 

Your posts are nothing but preaching about some higher level and so called purification rituals to attain such levels.

 

Given the fact that Twinner discussed in regards to the abuse in Buddhist monasteries, it is quite obvious that monastic life does very little to improve sociopathic and psychological problems. In fact, intense meditation will exasperate these types of problems.

Edited April 26, 2011 by ralis

[bodyoflight]

Instead of debating the facts of Twinner's post, you make accusations. Once again are you some lofty realized being who is above it all?

 

not really..

 

i only realized that when one finally realize what's important and what's not important in life, then he must do all he can to achieve it.. even go through suffering, pain and death if need be to achieve his goals..

 

and no, sex, procreation and women are hardly on my list of what's important.. in fact, they are off the list completely..

Edited April 26, 2011 by bodyoflight

[ralis]

A few links to add to Twinner's post.

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/abuse-alleged-at-monastery-for-tibet-exiles-698788.html

 

 

http://www.lamashree.org/dalailama_08_childabuse_tibetanbuddhistmonasteries.htm

[Apech]

some of the most powerful spiritually people i have seen had training in a number of traditions and not just one..

 

Ok that's true but I was asking about you.

 

I suppose you don't have to say if you don't want but it would make your arguments more convincing.

[Machin Shin]

Wow.. I wonder how sex would be without gravity. I wonder if that would change the energy flow?

I'd imagine so. It's all imagination currently. Bigelow's space hotel will start things happening...

 

I think that visitors to this world are modified before they leave or they are grown to be interplanetary pilots. The journey is a possibly one way.

 

Aww spacelove junk and funk!

[gendao]

I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find that more often, especially within the Western world, we are finding that just as many deviants are entering Buddhist and other Eastern traditions as they are Christianity. We are also finding that meditation and prayer can only do so much. Sex is a very natural part of the human experience. Denying this experience will more often than not lead to deviant behavior, regardless of how spiritually advanced one is.

Well, Buddhists also don't (purposely) transmute jing to qi..

 

Anyhow, I would agree that experiencing nonduality, for instance, alone would likely not cure deviancies. Neither would even sexual sublimation, per se - as the deviancy is likely a separate issue that just gets expressed sexually. Rerouting the sexual energy then could reduce its ability to get expressed - but would not eliminate the mental thoughts initiating the deviant acts. You would have to engage in some deep self-inquiry to find and uproot the actual emotional issue underlying the deviancy to truly stop it.

[宁]

Twinner, on 25 April 2011 - 07:01 PM, said:

Hello Little 1,

 

Hello Aaron,

 

it's nice of you to join the topic, and complete your description about the phenomenon.

i for one think psychology has quite alot to teach us and can prove an invaluable means to ADAPT the Eastern practices, which in my view adress a different type of psychic structure.

just want to say i read you!

 

PS: don't mind bodyoflight, i think the best policy is what he suggested to me, let him be our egos are to fragile for a direct confrontation with his well fed..

[balance.]

I think Twinner brings up a really important point with regards to the popular conception of the enlightened personality.... That of enlightenment bringing with it an absence of human emotion and feeling. I'll see if I can dig up the quote properly here (I believe it's within Huai-Chin Nans "Tao and Longevity"), but the thrust of the quote involves the authors observation that many enlightened and high level practitioners still have a "demon" within them... The "demon" being sexual lust/desire. We can also look at figures like Chogyam Trungpa (A notorious womanizer) and the more legendary Lu Dongbin who still retain some of these very human characteristics although they are associated with very high levels of cultivation.. So it seems that the various paths don't neutralize these tendencies, but they do make them easier for us to understand and then move beyond.... But we cannot move beyond or let go of something that we are too afraid to confront.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't see sex or ones own sexuality as something that should be suppressed and stifled. As Cat and others have pointed out, the very act of repression yields contradictory results-- that of giving strength to the desire or thought instead of nullifying it as we had initially intended. The vast canons of sexual literature that exist within taoism (and elsewhere) speak to the potential and necessity that was seen within sex for both spiritual and physical growth. For me, a huge aspect of practice has been about experiencing and understanding these binary relationships to be connected and one... Seeing the union of heaven and earth in us and in all things seems to be critical for advancement along our own paths.... To me, it seems bizarre that in seeking to understand oneness we can be so picky and selective in those things that we choose to express and experience...... How can we find union within ourselves if there is always perceived mutiny afoot? ... seems to me that we compulsively create problems for ourselves when no problem actually existed.. Bringing these things into the light of understanding/awareness gives us the ability to decide what to do with them.

 

The meager amounts of aptitude I've gained with the control of my own desires and lusts began to come only when I stopped trying to control them and tried instead to understand their root causes... This return to the root isnt some sort of conceptual framework I've set up to better make sense of my baser tendencies, nor a system that I've devised that's allowed me to bypass contact with the fairer sex, but rather just a devotion to my daily practices, and the subsequent cultivation of a calmer, steadier mind. I've learned to accept my sexual urges and desires as something natural and human and I've found ways to go about expressing them in healthy, disciplined and balanced ways... The sexual literature is there to be coupled with a mind tempered/relaxed/mellowed by regular meditative work so that you can get your lovin-groove on and still advance along the path...

 

To cast aside something we fear and don't fully understand is an easy way to make things much harder on ourselves because then we are only ever just making more internal structures that hinder smooth and streamlined progress... For how can we expect to glean any deeper understanding if we can't even bring ourselves to shine a light into those happily forgotten and boarded-up coves within our own bodies? How can we walk a harmonious path if denial keeps us from seeing one half of the whole? For me, sex, practiced in a healthy, balanced and loving manner has been an enormous boon... And sure, I still pounce upon my lady while hot with lust and desire, and even occasionally give into exquisite pleasure instead of minding my breath and my lover, but it is worth it... To experience that bond and realize that union... but indulging in sex also gives us an opportunity, as Trunk points out, to experience the yin curve of our own sexuality... It needn't be all or nothing.. We can find harmony and balance, and it seems to me that we owe it to ourselves to do so-- to be able to act harmoniously in all that we do... is that not wu-wei?

 

We are humans, and I think its important to experience fully these very human things... If only so that accrued experience eventually leads to the understanding that allows us to effortlessly and naturally let go of them without the use of artificial internal/conceptual structures.... I do think that a complete letting go is necessary at the highest levels.. but simply writing sex and its associated baggage off and hiding from them as we meditate and hope to make progress seems close-minded and foolhardy to me... As spiritual voyagers, we aim to confront the unknown with open-minds and open-hearts.... and keeping our insecurities and fears at arms length will always keep us an arms length from that deeper understanding.

 

 

 

 

balance.

[Non]

perhaps its not smtg to do forever (obviously).IT can be used towards enlightenment, then one can learn the various other sexual practices.

[Aaron]

Hello Aaron,

 

it's nice of you to join the topic, and complete your description about the phenomenon.

i for one think psychology has quite alot to teach us and can prove an invaluable means to ADAPT the Eastern practices, which in my view adress a different type of psychic structure.

just want to say i read you!

 

PS: don't mind bodyoflight, i think the best policy is what he suggested to me, let him be our egos are to fragile for a direct confrontation with his well fed..

 

Hello Little1,

 

Perhaps we can adapt psychology to the Eastern practices, but I think what needs to be done is entirely different. I feel a veil needs to be lifted about religion and sexuality. We need to realize that there's nothing wrong with sex or sexuality. When we can understand that, then we will begin to realize the truth about ourselves. For many of us, our sexuality is repressed and dictated by what society and religion dictates. It is only when we are able to appreciate our sexuality that we can really appreciate ourselves and see it for the beautiful thing it is.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Oh yeah, thanks for reading.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Twinner

[Aaron]

I think Twinner brings up a really important point with regards to the popular conception of the enlightened personality.... That of enlightenment bringing with it an absence of human emotion and feeling. I'll see if I can dig up the quote properly here (I believe it's within Huai-Chin Nans "Tao and Longevity"), but the thrust of the quote involves the authors observation that many enlightened and high level practitioners still have a "demon" within them... The "demon" being sexual lust/desire. We can also look at figures like Chogyam Trungpa (A notorious womanizer) and the more legendary Lu Dongbin who still retain some of these very human characteristics although they are associated with very high levels of cultivation.. So it seems that the various paths don't neutralize these tendencies, but they do make them easier for us to understand and then move beyond.... But we cannot move beyond or let go of something that we are too afraid to confront.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't see sex or ones own sexuality as something that should be suppressed and stifled. As Cat and others have pointed out, the very act of repression yields contradictory results-- that of giving strength to the desire or thought instead of nullifying it as we had initially intended. The vast canons of sexual literature that exist within taoism (and elsewhere) speak to the potential and necessity that was seen within sex for both spiritual and physical growth. For me, a huge aspect of practice has been about experiencing and understanding these binary relationships to be connected and one... Seeing the union of heaven and earth in us and in all things seems to be critical for advancement along our own paths.... To me, it seems bizarre that in seeking to understand oneness we can be so picky and selective in those things that we choose to express and experience...... How can we find union within ourselves if there is always perceived mutiny afoot? ... seems to me that we compulsively create problems for ourselves when no problem actually existed.. Bringing these things into the light of understanding/awareness gives us the ability to decide what to do with them.

 

The meager amounts of aptitude I've gained with the control of my own desires and lusts began to come only when I stopped trying to control them and tried instead to understand their root causes... This return to the root isnt some sort of conceptual framework I've set up to better make sense of my baser tendencies, nor a system that I've devised that's allowed me to bypass contact with the fairer sex, but rather just a devotion to my daily practices, and the subsequent cultivation of a calmer, steadier mind. I've learned to accept my sexual urges and desires as something natural and human and I've found ways to go about expressing them in healthy, disciplined and balanced ways... The sexual literature is there to be coupled with a mind tempered/relaxed/mellowed by regular meditative work so that you can get your lovin-groove on and still advance along the path...

 

To cast aside something we fear and don't fully understand is an easy way to make things much harder on ourselves because then we are only ever just making more internal structures that hinder smooth and streamlined progress... For how can we expect to glean any deeper understanding if we can't even bring ourselves to shine a light into those happily forgotten and boarded-up coves within our own bodies? How can we walk a harmonious path if denial keeps us from seeing one half of the whole? For me, sex, practiced in a healthy, balanced and loving manner has been an enormous boon... And sure, I still pounce upon my lady while hot with lust and desire, and even occasionally give into exquisite pleasure instead of minding my breath and my lover, but it is worth it... To experience that bond and realize that union... but indulging in sex also gives us an opportunity, as Trunk points out, to experience the yin curve of our own sexuality... It needn't be all or nothing.. We can find harmony and balance, and it seems to me that we owe it to ourselves to do so-- to be able to act harmoniously in all that we do... is that not wu-wei?

 

We are humans, and I think its important to experience fully these very human things... If only so that accrued experience eventually leads to the understanding that allows us to effortlessly and naturally let go of them without the use of artificial internal/conceptual structures.... I do think that a complete letting go is necessary at the highest levels.. but simply writing sex and its associated baggage off and hiding from them as we meditate and hope to make progress seems close-minded and foolhardy to me... As spiritual voyagers, we aim to confront the unknown with open-minds and open-hearts.... and keeping our insecurities and fears at arms length will always keep us an arms length from that deeper understanding.

 

 

 

 

balance.

 

 

Hello Balance,

 

Very well said. I agree with everything you've said, except for perhaps the last part. I don't feel that giving up sex is necessary at the highest levels. As I tried to express (and you have) sexuality is not abnormal, or a curse, but rather a natural part of our being. Sexuality is very much a part of our original nature, denying it denies our original nature. When one says it must be given up, I tend to think of original sin, that we were not born perfect and thus must sacrifice to gain that perfection. In my mind we are very much perfect the way we are, sex and all.

 

Aaron

[Birch]

At some point during my practice it occurred to me that "qi" is definitely sexual and that everything is desire-driven - including, ironically, the intellect to dissect such things and the creativity to find solutions to the resulting problems. It's just jing doing its thing:-)

 

I would also like to suggest that the "jing" loss that might be referred to is pre-heaven jing. In other words the potential continuity of life/spirit? I dunno, I just had an idea. That might warrant clarification. Because if you're not losing post-heaven jing then why bother with celibacy? I recall the gnostics made a distinction between reproductive vs non-reproductive sex and that in other writings/traditions "virginity" had more to do with being childless than sexually "untouched".

 

It's been mentioned elsewhere that another reason to have a large number of people who cannot reproduce under one banner (or "religion") is a way of consolidating wealth and power which would otherwise have to be dissipated to provide for the family. So while the "energetics" of sexual abstinence (or repression) are often discussed, I wonder if it might also make sense to bring in some wider consequences. Socially, for example, right now, there's lot being "done" to entice men and women into very particular sexual roles. I recall the TTC mentions something about getting the basic family unit "right" in order to rule whole nations. What does that refer to if not the sexual/reproductive/relationship aspects of people"s lives, and why on earth would a book be making recommendations about how to proceed ?

 

After a period which caused me great embarrassment because ALL my practice had an effect in that respect, I then just sort of let it go. So now the "sexual" vs "non-sexual" feelings aren't that clear cut any more IME. In fact it's made me wonder if the actual "heat" of sexual feeling isn't partly due to repressing it? Anyway, I digress.

 

However, assuming it's a result of social repression, it would have to have been repressed very early on, but I just don't remember it. And, moreover, repressed by whom? That's very spooky.

[bodyoflight]

just to let you all know,

 

I am really sick of people making excuses for their lack of divine willpower in repressing the animalistic desires of sexuality..

 

sex can be used to transform oneself spiritually but how many of you are strong enough to harness the powers of sex without succumbing to its addictions?

 

if you do not develop the necessary willpower to control or repress sexual desires, how are you gonna harness the power in the first place?

 

let me quote again..

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dalai-Lamas-Secret-Temple-Paintings/dp/0500510032/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1301053184&sr=8-3

 

Tibet's Lukhang temple, a private retreat for the Dalai Lama established in the late seventeenth century, contains what was, until the Chinese invaded, a secret meditation chamber covered with a set of extraordinary murals. These murals present a host of figures engaged in the basic cycles of life or practicing Tantric meditation techniques in pursuit of inner transformation. Instead of rejecting desire as other Buddhist practices do, Tantra harnesses this intrinsically human drive and turns it into "boundless compassion." So powerful and potentially dangerous is this path to spiritual awakening, only the most enlightened of Tibetan Buddhist monks are initiated into the tradition. Tibet expert Baker's decoding of the murals' images and history of the Tantric tradition are cogent and deeply moving. In his introduction, the Dalai Lama, who was unable to visit Lukhang before being forced into exile, writes that many believe that the very sight of these paintings opens the viewer's mind to spiritual truths, and, indeed, their effect is powerful.

 

If you are a serious cultivator, I suggest you give you sex initially to overcome your animal/human ego.

 

And after you crushed your animal/human ego, then can you begin thinking about dual cultivation.

 

Wanting your cake and eating it at the same time? There is no such thing in the world of spirituality, mate. Believe me, I tried it and it got me nowhere in my practices and I am now even being punished for it.

[bodyoflight]

At some point during my practice it occurred to me that "qi" is definitely sexual and that everything is desire-driven - including, ironically, the intellect to dissect such things and the creativity to find solutions to the resulting problems. It's just jing doing its thing:-)

 

I would also like to suggest that the "jing" loss that might be referred to is pre-heaven jing. In other words the potential continuity of life/spirit? I dunno, I just had an idea. That might warrant clarification. Because if you're not losing post-heaven jing then why bother with celibacy? I recall the gnostics made a distinction between reproductive vs non-reproductive sex and that in other writings/traditions "virginity" had more to do with being childless than sexually "untouched".

 

It's been mentioned elsewhere that another reason to have a large number of people who cannot reproduce under one banner (or "religion") is a way of consolidating wealth and power which would otherwise have to be dissipated to provide for the family. So while the "energetics" of sexual abstinence (or repression) are often discussed, I wonder if it might also make sense to bring in some wider consequences. Socially, for example, right now, there's lot being "done" to entice men and women into very particular sexual roles. I recall the TTC mentions something about getting the basic family unit "right" in order to rule whole nations. What does that refer to if not the sexual/reproductive/relationship aspects of people"s lives, and why on earth would a book be making recommendations about how to proceed ?

 

After a period which caused me great embarrassment because ALL my practice had an effect in that respect, I then just sort of let it go. So now the "sexual" vs "non-sexual" feelings aren't that clear cut any more IME. In fact it's made me wonder if the actual "heat" of sexual feeling isn't partly due to repressing it? Anyway, I digress.

 

However, assuming it's a result of social repression, it would have to have been repressed very early on, but I just don't remember it. And, moreover, repressed by whom? That's very spooky.

 

When you are procreating and have a family, the negative forces in the universe have too many ways of torturing through your children and spouse.

 

Only a fool wanna cultivate and have a family at the same time.

[ralis]

just to let you all know,

 

I am really sick of people making excuses for their lack of divine willpower in repressing the animalistic desires of sexuality..

 

sex can be used to transform oneself spiritually but how many of you are strong enough to harness the powers of sex without succumbing to its addictions?

 

if you do not develop the necessary willpower to control or repress sexual desires, how are you gonna harness the power in the first place?

 

let me quote again..

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dalai-Lamas-Secret-Temple-Paintings/dp/0500510032/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1301053184&sr=8-3

 

Tibet's Lukhang temple, a private retreat for the Dalai Lama established in the late seventeenth century, contains what was, until the Chinese invaded, a secret meditation chamber covered with a set of extraordinary murals. These murals present a host of figures engaged in the basic cycles of life or practicing Tantric meditation techniques in pursuit of inner transformation. Instead of rejecting desire as other Buddhist practices do, Tantra harnesses this intrinsically human drive and turns it into "boundless compassion." So powerful and potentially dangerous is this path to spiritual awakening, only the most enlightened of Tibetan Buddhist monks are initiated into the tradition. Tibet expert Baker's decoding of the murals' images and history of the Tantric tradition are cogent and deeply moving. In his introduction, the Dalai Lama, who was unable to visit Lukhang before being forced into exile, writes that many believe that the very sight of these paintings opens the viewer's mind to spiritual truths, and, indeed, their effect is powerful.

 

If you are a serious cultivator, I suggest you give you sex initially to overcome your animal/human ego.

 

And after you crushed your animal/human ego, then can you begin thinking about dual cultivation.

 

Wanting your cake and eating it at the same time? There is no such thing in the world of spirituality, mate. Believe me, I tried it and it got me nowhere in my practices and I am now even being punished for it.

 

 

Why are you so attached to being unattached to sexuality? That in and of itself is a problem!

[Sloppy Zhang]

I am really sick of people making excuses for their lack of divine willpower in repressing the animalistic desires of sexuality..

 

Just because you aren't repressing doesn't mean you are allowing.

 

Why are you always going to such radical extremes? "Oh you don't think sex is bad? Why do you think fuckin' around is okay??? Why do you just cave in to your animal desires????!!!!!!"

 

It is just a ridiculous and nonsensical jump!

Edited April 27, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Birch]

When you are procreating and have a family, the negative forces in the universe have too many ways of torturing through your children and spouse.

 

Only a fool wanna cultivate and have a family at the same time.

 

Can you explain why/how all that? The children part I kind of get. But why the spouse? And I'd tend to argue the reverse, that cultivators would probably be good parents. But I guess it depends on what they're cultivating and where they're at with it (and potentially this process might take them past their child-rearing years?)