I am Hitler

[Otis]

I've been watching a number of WWII documentaries lately. It's mind-boggling, because it seems like such a different world than we live in now. The capacity to hate, to sublimate "evil", to rationalize horrible deeds, is far beyond what I see when I look around at the (admittedly troubled) world today.

 

I am fascinated by why people believed as they did, and how they were able to see virtue in horrific acts. Whether it's the Holocaust, the fire-bombing of Germany, or the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, truly horrible horrible acts were committed under the rubric of necessity.

 

In particular, I'm fascinated by the actions of everyday Germans, who agreed to carry out the Final Solution, exterminating their former friends and neighbors, in order to satisfy some twisted master plan by the Fuehrer. Gunning down defenseless women and children, leading people into gas showers. How could anyone see this as anything but evil?

 

As far as I can tell, there was nothing inherently special about the German people. Nothing extra monstrous. They were human beings, no different than I. If there was one single important lesson to be drawn from all these documentaries, it was: I am them, too. I am not special. I am neither good, nor evil. I am composed of the exact same stuff as all other human beings, just in slightly different proportions.

 

And that's why I say: "I am Hitler". Because I learn nothing from his horrific legacy, if I pretend that he is not a mirror to me. If I make myself above all that, then I miss the horrible truth of that time, which is that humans have the capacity for evil. And I see no reason to believe that I am somehow made of different stuff. Hitler is the reminder of that part of me that wants to be right, wants to be above, wants to be special. Therefore, I do myself no favors, if I pretend that I am too "right, above, or special" to make those same awful choices.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Ralis had a good post where he talked about the research behind repression and getting people to go along with it with regards to the institution.

 

And then I'll also throw out that there were Germans who helped Jews and such, so I can't say that they all agreed- so be careful about who is making the documentary, and what the message is saying (explicitly or implicitly).

 

Then I'll say that there are a lot of factors that went into it. Nationalism is very interesting, but also very tricky. And don't forget apathy- common people just trying to live their lives. Oh look, another message from the overlords. Okay, well, I don't want to get evicted or arrested, so why stick my neck out? Each individual is thinking the same thing, so as a collective, nothing gets done.

 

 

You can see it now with the war against extremist terrorists.

 

In America people have freedom of speech and thought, right? People have the right to be innocent until proven guilty, right? But terrorists want to kill indiscriminately. They have done so, and will continue to do so. They have gotten past lax security, so we should increase the security. That makes sense, right? And we should look closely at illegal aliens- if they can get in, so can someone intent on causing real harm. So we should lock down the boarders. Okay, that makes sense.

 

But these guys have global networks, they coordinate intel to kill soldiers and civilians. I mean, it's like war, and in war, you can't leave yourself defenseless, right? So you lock up those who might be in collusion with the terrorists. I mean, that's smart, it's war, right? You don't want Americans to die, right? And sure, they might not have broken a law YET, but we have same damn good evidence that they were going to. And this is war, right? Preemption is okay, right? I mean, you're on our side, right? And these guys are just the REALLY scary ones. We aren't arresting them just because they are religious conservatives and frequent places that are known to produce extremists. I mean, we aren't arresting "normal people", so you're okay. (Sloppy note: so now you've got the populace okay with arrests that aren't operating strictly by the book)

 

Meanwhile we caught some more people trying to sneak bombs and weapons into planes. They are still gunning for us. I mean, what if they give us the slip? You don't want a 9/11 happening again, right? I mean, that was horrible. And look, it's uncomfortable, sure, but we aren't after innocent people. Just the suspicious ones. How do we define suspicious? You know. Kinda sketchy. You'll know it when you see it. Just lookin' for anything.... out of the ordinary. But look, we're just going to pat you down, just ignore the cameras and be on your way. I mean, we aren't trying to interfere with normal peoples' daily life. Just pretend we aren't here. (Sloppy note: so now the public is consenting to increased invasive security to protect against nebulously defined threats, you don't know exactly what they are, but they aren't you, and they prevent another 9/11).

 

Oh and that internet, well, it helps us run the country. Security, finances. I mean, if bad guy were to go after it. Oh, who? Yeah, bad guys. You know, the ones who want to kill you. You know who they are, we arrested a few just the other day. And that person airport security caught. Yeah. I mean, we aren't worried about you, but someone could try to take us down by the internet. So the president should be able to shut it down to prevent an attack. Yup. But normal people don't need to worry. We aren't interested in you checking your e-mail or looking at pictures of naked ladies. We're after the real bad guys. Oh come on, we know you know who we're talking about.... the bad guys. (Is a Sloppy note even necessary here?)

 

 

So despite rights being systematically revoked, the majority, the "normal people" don't have to worry- it's outside the sphere of their lives. And if they DO ask question, the rhetoric is set up that they, then, are sympathetic to the enemy, which makes THEM the enemy. And so you've got the soldier in your grocery store reading your report of your internet activities for the day asking if you've really got an uncle John in Tuscon, telling you that all the security checkpoints are helping the country succeed, and btw, if you see anybody reading a book, call the soldiers, because some crazies who liked to read just tried to tell some people that the government wasn't looking out for the public. Damn anarchist librarian bastards.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[三江源]

I've always wondered, Hitler, who your stylist was. Great sense of humour re. facial hair.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[ralis]

I saw this movie 'Triumph of the Will' about 10 years ago. It really freaked me out! The fanaticism of Rudolph Hess on the podium and the complete surrender of the German people is very disturbing! This was filmed in the 1933 Nuremberg rally. Of course there are lots of goose stepping Nazi's.

 

Wilhelm Reich observed these events and wrote 'Mass Psychology of Fascism'. This is exactly what suppression of populations can lead to.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBfYncHshJc

Edited April 25, 2011 by ralis

[Sloppy Zhang]

I've always wondered, Hitler, who your stylist was. Great sense of humour re. facial hair.

 

I had always heard he was trying to be in style by adopting the style of the famous actor, Charlie Chaplin.

[ralis]

I've always wondered, Hitler, who your stylist was. Great sense of humour re. facial hair.

 

Humorous it is not!! Mass psychosis as displayed by an entire population being led to complete destruction by a psychopathic sociopath, is in no way humorous.

[三江源]

Humorous it is not!! Mass psychosis as displayed by an entire population being led to complete destruction by a psychopathic sociopath, is in no way humorous.

 

You think his facial hair was mass psychosis?

[ralis]

You think his facial hair was mass psychosis?

 

 

I see nothing humorous in regards to his facial hair.

[三江源]

I had always heard he was trying to be in style by adopting the style of the famous actor, Charlie Chaplin.

ah,thanks, I see. Now there are houses joining in the whole celeb emulation thing :

 

http://www.dailymail...elebrities.html

[三江源]

I see nothing humorous in regards to his facial hair.

 

[ralis]

I had always heard he was trying to be in style by adopting the style of the famous actor, Charlie Chaplin.

 

Where did you get that idea?

[Sloppy Zhang]

I've always wondered, Hitler, who your stylist was. Great sense of humour re. facial hair.

 

I see nothing humorous in regards to his facial hair.

 

Well in defense of cat:

In a 1933 interview, Chaplin said he added the moustache to his costume because it had a comical appearance and was small enough so as not to hide his expression.

 

I know it's the wiki, but there is a source cited...

 

Where did you get that idea?

 

Prior to actually ever looking it up just now, you know, word of mouth. You hear this and that as you go through life.

 

Come to think of it, I might have heard it in a drama class after someone mentioned Charlie Chaplin's "Hitlerstache", and hearing the teacher respond with "you mean Hitler's Charlie Chaplin-stache?"

Edited April 25, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Jetsun]

That moustache is the one thing Hitler still owns even though he is long dead, nobody can wear that moustache now (except perhaps Robert Mugabe) so it's time to reclaim it back as a legitimate style choice, the final thing to be liberated from Nazi control, whose with me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

anyone?

[ralis]

Well in defense of cat:

 

 

I know it's the wiki, but there is a source cited...

 

 

 

Prior to actually ever looking it up just now, you know, word of mouth. You hear this and that as you go through life.

 

Come to think of it, I might have heard it in a drama class after someone mentioned Charlie Chaplin's "Hitlerstache", and hearing the teacher respond with "you mean Hitler's Charlie Chaplin-stache?"

 

 

That style goes back to the late 1900's and the style continued until the end of the war. Hitler was not impersonating Chaplin.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[三江源]

That moustache is the one thing Hitler still owns even though he is long dead, nobody can wear that moustache now (except perhaps Robert Mugabe) so it's time to reclaim it back as a legitimate style choice, the final thing to be liberated from Nazi control, whose with me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

anyone?

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9-A6-Y55Hno

[三江源]

 

This happens when you mix humour with wisdom and severe in a topic.

I can understand the innuendo joke Cat and Sloppy hinted.

A half serious thing from astrology : It is said that Charly Chaplin

had a zodial setting which is same as Hitler. But he decided to conquer the movie world

with his jokes.

Same can be said about Ghandi. He has also a very negative aspect in his zodiak but

he choose a other way "Nonviolent resistance".

 

I forgot the imperalist in japan also like to choose

this style ouf moustache and hair style.

 

Q

 

Not just the imperialists in japan, Q...

 

 

[ralis]

Otis wrote a very thoughtful post and the whole thread deteriorates into a discussion about Hitler's mustache. Cat you are supposed to be moderating, not sidetracking topics.

[三江源]

Otis wrote a very thoughtful post and the whole thread deteriorates into a discussion about Hitler's mustache. Cat you are supposed to be moderating, not sidetracking topics.

 

Is it a sidetrack? Are you sure?

[ralis]

Is it a sidetrack? Are you sure?

 

Read what Otis wrote or did you even bother.

[Jetsun]

On a serious note it is a dangerous mistake to think that these times are somehow different that we are now more humane or evolved, there are a number of psychological studies which show that most average people will do things like administer extreme electric shocks to people if they are commanded to by an authority figure, much of the psychology around the issue of authority is quite disturbing and there have been numerous studies to show that when average people are placed in positions of authority they can very quickly become sadists, sometimes it only takes a few days or less.

 

Also much of that period is to do with the psychology of scapegoating, of projecting all that is undesirable onto someone else, which is something I see every day in schools, in workplaces, in families, with groups of friends and expecially in the media. You see now how the west scapegoats Muslims while many Islamic nations demonise and scapegoat the west. I also see it in myself sometimes how I feel so much better about myself and less anxiety when the problem is in someone else and not me.

 

So until you become your own master immune from the pressures of all authority, own all your projections and become immune from hypnotic influence I don't see how you can be confident that you wouldn't become the equivalent of a Nazi if a similar situation arose again.

[三江源]

Read what Otis wrote or did you even bother.

 

Thanks Ralis, for your input. Are you attempting to control or censor me.. surely that cant be.

 

 

Many varied posts can co exist along your outraged ones, Ralis. There is room for a wide range of responses from conventional piety, genuine grief, bombast, ponderous pontification, platitude, and for Pol Pot discussion too. I would love to see a wide range of responses form people who feel free to offer whatever they have, from indifference upwards. We dont have to mouth PC platitudes here. And we dont do that in the UK, hence my cultural sharing.

 

Humour as a response to Hitler is current in the UK on a regular basis, still the processing goes on. Not demonising. Endlessly puncturing his inflation, spreading the lesson over and over again against extremism.

 

Extremists just dont have a flexible, real, responsive sense of humour. Nor do psychopaths.

 

 

Keep laughing... ie Keep flexible, keep the flow, dont freeze, keep the heart alive.

 

 

 

How would it have been if the Germans had laughed at Hitler's ranting, slapped him on the back and taken him for a beer. And shown him a cat that looked like him.

[Sloppy Zhang]

On a serious note it is a dangerous mistake to think that these times are somehow different that we are now more humane or evolved, there are a number of psychological studies which show that most average people will do things like administer extreme electric shocks to people if they are commanded to by an authority figure, much of the psychology around the issue of authority is quite disturbing and there have been numerous studies to show that when average people are placed in positions of authority they can very quickly become sadists, sometimes it only takes a few days or less.

 

Also much of that period is to do with the psychology of scapegoating, of projecting all that is undesirable onto someone else, which is something I see every day in schools, in workplaces, in families, with groups of friends and expecially in the media. You see now how the west scapegoats Muslims while many Islamic nations demonise and scapegoat the west. I also see it in myself sometimes how I feel so much better about myself and less anxiety when the problem is in someone else and not me.

 

So until you become your own master immune from the pressures of all authority, own all your projections and become immune from hypnotic influence I don't see how you can be confident that you wouldn't become the equivalent of a Nazi if a similar situation arose again.

 

Not only that, but people won't do stuff if they think the crowd will disapprove, or if they think they will be embarrassed.

 

Things like the bystander effect explain why people just sit by and watch crimes happen- because someone else will do something about it.

 

I've heard of studies where they get people in the room, taking a test or something, and they will let the smell of gas or something in a room. People won't even acknowledge the problem until they have some kind of confirmation from others (eye contacts, nods of the head, silent agreement, etc) that something is wrong before they speak up. So alone you might say "there is a gas leak, I should leave." In a group you think "Do I smell a gas leak? Does anyone else smell it? Should I say something? That would be embarrassing. What if I'm wrong? I'll wait and see if somebody else does."

 

Then you've got effects like groupthink- everyone is rollin' with it, I don't want to be the one to kill the fun.

 

I don't know if anyone has seen that 20/20 special called "What would you do?" They stage scenarios to see what people do. So if you see a couple arguing/getting abusive, would you say something, if you see kids bullying another kid, would you do something?

 

It's interesting because a LOT of factors come out of straight forward scenarios- perceptions of race, class, social role, past experience, etc.

 

It's scary stuff. People are scary.

 

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."

 

Edited April 26, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[ralis]

Several of you wrote about psychological experiments. I saw the German version several years ago and I believe this was based on the Stanford experiment.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw5sUfMcQpc