I am Hitler

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Otis]

I saw this movie 'Triumph of the Will' about 10 years ago. It really freaked me out! The fanaticism of Rudolph Hess on the podium and the complete surrender of the German people is very disturbing! This was filmed in the 1933 Nuremberg rally. Of course there are lots of goose stepping Nazi's.

 

Wilhelm Reich observed these events and wrote 'Mass Psychology of Fascism'. This is exactly what suppression of populations can lead to.

Good share, Ralis.

 

I just saw "A State of Mind", which I highly recommend. It's a documentary about ordinary North Koreans, how they live and how they believe. There are many shots similar to "Triumph of the Will", of precision marching and en masse choreographies; the ethic and aesthetic is all about suppression of the individual, in glorifying the state.

 

p.s. It's on Netflix.

[Otis]

On a serious note it is a dangerous mistake to think that these times are somehow different that we are now more humane or evolved, there are a number of psychological studies which show that most average people will do things like administer extreme electric shocks to people if they are commanded to by an authority figure, much of the psychology around the issue of authority is quite disturbing and there have been numerous studies to show that when average people are placed in positions of authority they can very quickly become sadists, sometimes it only takes a few days or less.

 

Also much of that period is to do with the psychology of scapegoating, of projecting all that is undesirable onto someone else, which is something I see every day in schools, in workplaces, in families, with groups of friends and expecially in the media. You see now how the west scapegoats Muslims while many Islamic nations demonise and scapegoat the west. I also see it in myself sometimes how I feel so much better about myself and less anxiety when the problem is in someone else and not me.

 

So until you become your own master immune from the pressures of all authority, own all your projections and become immune from hypnotic influence I don't see how you can be confident that you wouldn't become the equivalent of a Nazi if a similar situation arose again.

Yeah, that's some chilling stuff, all right. No one thinks they're going to be one of those guys, until they do it.

 

I think the way America turned on its Muslims is an excellent example of how our principles are discarded, as soon as our panic is activated.

 

And the fact that almost no news outlet in America will seriously discuss how awful we made life for the Iraqis. As a society, we've developed a mass blindness to the suffering that we create.

 

I also think that soccer and other sports-related violence sheds some interesting light on mob mentality.

[gendao]

Humans are extremely gullible and susceptible to peer pressure and mob psychology. Many countrymen were desperately poor, humiliated, angered and demoralized after WWI. And desperate times "require" desperate measures... To some disatisfied with the status quo, any "change" beats more of the same...

Many people would resort to cannibalism if starving long enough... In fact, this actually happened in Communist Russia as tens of millions starved to death.

 

Anyhow, the most common agitprop tactic is fomenting/exploiting class warfare between "noble proletariats" vs "greedy bourgeois." Reads like an oversimplified comic book punchline - but simple is what works for the masses. Marx, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Obama, etc. all used the same playbook here.

 

But in reality, the real battle here is between the "free individual" vs "enslaved collective."

The efficiency of the government in dominating its subjects, the all-encompassing character of its coercion, the complete mass regimentation on a scale involving millions of men -- and, one might add, the enormity of the slaughter, the planned, systematic mass slaughter, in peacetime, initiated by a government against its own citizens -- these are the insignia of twentieth-century totalitarianism (Nazi AND communist), which are without parallel in recorded history. In the totalitarian regimes, as the Germans found out after only a few months of Hitler's rule, every detail of life is prescribed, or proscribed. There is no longer any distinction between private matters and public matters. "There are to be no more private Germans," said Friedrich Sieburg, a Nazi writer; "each is to attain significance only by his service to the state, and to find complete self-fulfillment in his service." "The only person who is still a private individual in Germany," boasted Robert Ley, a member of the Nazi hierarchy, after several years of Nazi rule, "is somebody who is asleep."

 

In place of the despised "private individuals," the Germans heard daily or hourly about a different kind of entity, a supreme entity, whose will, it was said, is what determines the course and actions of the state: the nation, the whole, the GROUP. Over and over, the Germans heard the idea that underlies the advocacy of omnipotent government, the idea that totalitarians of every kind stress as the justification of their total states: COLLECTIVISM.

 

Collectivism is the theory that the group (the collective) has primacy over the individual. Collectivism holds that, in human affairs, the collective -- society, the community, the nation, the proletariat, the race, etc. -- is THE UNIT OF REALITY AND THE STANDARD OF VALUE. On this view, the individual has reality only as part of the group, and value only insofar as he serves it; on his own he has no political rights; he is to be sacrificed for the group whenever it -- or its representative, the state -- deems this desirable.

"Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei — in English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party

Because the more you centralize power, the more you gain control over the masses. In a battle for hearts, minds & souls - victory is the surrendering of individual minds to the dictator's. Where the individual becomes just a part of the mob, which becomes just an extension of the despot...

 

And if you didn't join them, you got beaten...

What my teacher, who was jailed and tortured and who remained in prison for 17 years said was, "All of China was insane at that time."

He only survived due to his qigong being very powerful. They would attempt to starve him, going without food OR water for many days and physically tortured him. They took his family to a labor camp and he did not know what happened to his family for the whole 17 years.

Franz Bardon, writier of many magical books, a renknowed Mage who died in a communist prison.

Look, the US invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc all under false pretenses. Yet, this was fully-approved by the Mainstream Party (Dems & Repubs) in Congress. An estimated 800K Iraqis have been killed and 2 million displaced from "Operation Iraqi Freedom." Your average American can care less however - and most all actively support the Mainstream Party/wars. So, most people here today now are obviously NO DIFFERENT than those back in WWII... Edited April 26, 2011 by vortex

[zerostao]

i will quote a german who said " madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule"

[Otis]

I think it is worth mentioning: not only am I made up of the same stuff as Hitler (and Milosevic, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.), but I am also made up of the same stuff as Mother Theresa and Ghandi.

 

This highlights the importance of my choice of path. If I fall in love with being superior, then it doesn't matter how righteous I am, I will become a monster. But if I fall in love with life, with the world, with other people, then I will move in the opposite direction.

[Jetsun]

i will quote a german who said " madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule"

 

I guess the world is in a permanent state of madness to a degree but once in a while it goes completely insane and everyone starts to kill each other, officially people say that it is to do with economic crashes and political insecurity but I have also heard that it is caused by astrological changes and the tension between the planets intensifying which causes an eruption of primal energy and fear on the earth. This increase in tension and the resultant mass psychosis has happened throughout history so is likely to happen again at some point, which is why we have no time to waste in making ourselves conscious so we don't get caught up in it, and if enough people have worked their consciousness to a high enough level in the population then perhaps the insanity can be reduced on a larger scale through their influence.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[doc benway]

I've been watching a number of WWII documentaries lately. It's mind-boggling, because it seems like such a different world than we live in now. The capacity to hate, to sublimate "evil", to rationalize horrible deeds, is far beyond what I see when I look around at the (admittedly troubled) world today.

 

I am fascinated by why people believed as they did, and how they were able to see virtue in horrific acts. Whether it's the Holocaust, the fire-bombing of Germany, or the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, truly horrible horrible acts were committed under the rubric of necessity.

 

In particular, I'm fascinated by the actions of everyday Germans, who agreed to carry out the Final Solution, exterminating their former friends and neighbors, in order to satisfy some twisted master plan by the Fuehrer. Gunning down defenseless women and children, leading people into gas showers. How could anyone see this as anything but evil?

 

As far as I can tell, there was nothing inherently special about the German people. Nothing extra monstrous. They were human beings, no different than I. If there was one single important lesson to be drawn from all these documentaries, it was: I am them, too. I am not special. I am neither good, nor evil. I am composed of the exact same stuff as all other human beings, just in slightly different proportions.

 

And that's why I say: "I am Hitler". Because I learn nothing from his horrific legacy, if I pretend that he is not a mirror to me. If I make myself above all that, then I miss the horrible truth of that time, which is that humans have the capacity for evil. And I see no reason to believe that I am somehow made of different stuff. Hitler is the reminder of that part of me that wants to be right, wants to be above, wants to be special. Therefore, I do myself no favors, if I pretend that I am too "right, above, or special" to make those same awful choices.

 

I think it is an important and difficult experience to understand in your heart and bones (not just intellectually) the truth of what Otis is pointing out.

 

Several years ago I read two books in relatively short succession - the effect was devastating. This is what started me on a focused path of spiritual inquiry.

We Wish to Inform You that Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families - Phillip Gourevitch

Love Thy Neighbor - Peter Maass

The first was about the Rwandan genocide and the second about the Bosnian genocide. Powerful books. In part, because they occurred in my lifetime and as I watched - helplessly. Genocide has been with us for a long time and shows no sign of abating. Humanity has progressed technologically but not psychologically or emotionally. We are more dangerous than ever before as a consequence.

 

We can try and ease the pain of this knowledge with humor or denial but it takes courage to face the ugly truth as Otis is presenting it and it is an important part of our spiritual, emotional, and psychological maturity to come to terms with it directly. Failure to do so guarantees future similar episodes. Even with extreme vigilance, it is likely to happen again and again.

[三江源]

I think it is an important and difficult experience to understand in your heart and bones (not just intellectually) the truth of what Otis is pointing out.

 

Several years ago I read two books in relatively short succession - the effect was devastating. This is what started me on a focused path of spiritual inquiry.

We Wish to Inform You that Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families - Phillip Gourevitch

Love Thy Neighbor - Peter Maass

The first was about the Rwandan genocide and the second about the Bosnian genocide. Powerful books. In part, because they occurred in my lifetime and as I watched - helplessly. Genocide has been with us for a long time and shows no sign of abating. Humanity has progressed technologically but not psychologically or emotionally. We are more dangerous than ever before as a consequence.

 

We can try and ease the pain of this knowledge with humor or denial but it takes courage to face the ugly truth as Otis is presenting it and it is an important part of our spiritual, emotional, and psychological maturity to come to terms with it directly. Failure to do so guarantees future similar episodes. Even with extreme vigilance, it is likely to happen again and again.

 

If it is actually difficult for a spiritual practitioner to 'get' this.. . well. Do I over estimate everyone or are you underestimating everyone?

[ralis]

I think it is an important and difficult experience to understand in your heart and bones (not just intellectually) the truth of what Otis is pointing out.

 

Several years ago I read two books in relatively short succession - the effect was devastating. This is what started me on a focused path of spiritual inquiry.

We Wish to Inform You that Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families - Phillip Gourevitch

Love Thy Neighbor - Peter Maass

The first was about the Rwandan genocide and the second about the Bosnian genocide. Powerful books. In part, because they occurred in my lifetime and as I watched - helplessly. Genocide has been with us for a long time and shows no sign of abating. Humanity has progressed technologically but not psychologically or emotionally. We are more dangerous than ever before as a consequence.

 

We can try and ease the pain of this knowledge with humor or denial but it takes courage to face the ugly truth as Otis is presenting it and it is an important part of our spiritual, emotional, and psychological maturity to come to terms with it directly. Failure to do so guarantees future similar episodes. Even with extreme vigilance, it is likely to happen again and again.

 

Absolutely!

 

Just trying to laugh it off does in no way abate the trauma of mass psychosis and the abuses that are perpetrated in the name of any cause. Humans are much too primitive to be trusted with dangerous technology and coupled with incoherent emotions make a worse case scenario.

We have a very excellent discussion taking place in this thread that discusses root causes of mass psychosis.

 

 

My link

Edited April 27, 2011 by ralis

[ralis]

If it is actually difficult for a spiritual practitioner to 'get' this.. . well. Do I over estimate everyone or are you underestimating everyone?

 

History point out the continuing psychotic tendencies of humans en masse, to create the most hideous acts of violence.

[doc benway]

If it is actually difficult for a spiritual practitioner to 'get' this.. . well. Do I over estimate everyone or are you underestimating everyone?

I think we would have to begin by defining our terms - what is a spiritual pratitioner? what is it to 'get' this? what do I mean by difficult?

 

It may sound presumptuous, even arrogant, but I don't think very many people on this forum are on a serious spiritual search... or at least that is the way it seems from much of the discussion I read. Of course, each of us gets to choose and define what that means for ourselves and I am simply commenting from my own biases.

[ralis]

As an example of the most hideous treatment is pointed out in this documentary. I saw it last night on the Military Channel. That particular channel presents many historical accounts that are not seen elsewhere. After the documentary was over, I had to take a walk and look up at the starry NM night and wonder where in the hell this insanity will stop! I felt physically ill!

 

 

 

 

[zerostao]

History point out the continuing psychotic tendencies of humans en masse, to create the most hideous acts of violence.

en masse is the key i think. this is the point i was making when i quoted nietzsche.

dont we spiritually cultivate as individual or a small group?

we dont spiritually cultivate en masse.

somehow the mentality changes. a dog or 2 roaming around isnt troublesome

but a larger pack of dogs can be scary. humans have this same tendency.

[ralis]

I think we would have to begin by defining our terms - what is a spiritual pratitioner? what is it to 'get' this? what do I mean by difficult?

 

It may sound presumptuous, even arrogant, but I don't think very many people on this forum are on a serious spiritual search... or at least that is the way it seems from much of the discussion I read. Of course, each of us gets to choose and define what that means for ourselves and I am simply commenting from my own biases.

 

Good point. Very few are on any true spiritual search because of the fact that seeing reality as it truly is takes much courage.

[doc benway]

I find some solace, or at least acceptance, when I put these horrors in the perspective of the Dao and Daoist principles.

All things in nature are in balance. With great beauty comes great ugliness - they define each other, neither can exist without the other. It is not an explanation, for what makes us think that there is or should be an explanation? Explanations are nothing more than a rationalization that satisfies human thought. Where do we get the idea that the universe and all of its manifestations exist in such a way that satisfies our desire for explanation?

 

Zhuangzi's parable about the empty boat addresses this. When nature takes the lives of thousands (whether they be people or fish) we do not question. When man's hand is involved, there is suddenly an offense. One can look at these horrific occurrences as being the hand of nature in action - man is only the tool. I'm not trying to excuse - just endure...

 

If a man is crossing a river and an empty boat collides with his skiff,

even though he is a bad-tempered man he will not become very angry.

But if he sees a man in the boat, he will shout at him to steer clear.

If the shout is not heard he will shout again, and yet again, and begin cursing.

And all because there is somebody in the boat.

Yet, if the boat were empty, he would not be shouting, and not angry.

If you can empty your own boat crossing the river of the world,

No one will oppose you. No one will seek to harm you....

Such is the perfect man:

His boat is empty.

[三江源]

I find some solace, or at least acceptance, when I put these horrors in the perspective of the Dao and Daoist principles.

Well......... yes! Surely.

 

I take your point about not being sure how many here are spiritual practitioners in a serious sense, Iknwym! I still think of the tb community as containing those that although they rarely post, I know are around and very actively engaged in genuine depth work. The level of petty confrontationalism here deters a lot of people from posting.. but they stick around, often, one way or another.

 

 

And I am surprised from you to see what looks like - and forgive me if I have misread - an underestimation of the systemic power of laughter, when as practitioners we know perfectly well that laughter opens channels fast and connects what was disconnected, within the energy body and the larger energy body between people. It is a surefire easy way to include the body in a process which can all too easily become head centric and mere cerebralism.

 

So many times I have seen and experienced huge laughter releases from people practising shamanism, or spontaneous qigong, or people who are in love just giggling so much, because they are open and flowing. Please dont fall into a trap of being dismissive of laughter. That way lies psychological and energetic and spiritual ill health. Laughter is a healing force and a force that draws people together.

 

We puncture inflation and we celebrate our lack of control of events when we laugh... it's pure dao in action.

[manitou]

What I'm getting from all this is that we have all of them inside us. Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Jesus, Charles Manson.

 

We are all one. What one is capable of doing, another is capable of doing. The highest cultivation is non-judgment. And when we are non-judgmental of others, our own self-esteem rises and we become non-judgmental of ourselves. We become capable of truly loving all beings, all matter.

 

And time doesn't really figure into the equation either, I don't think. It's all here and now, despite it 'appearing' that it was history.

[zerostao]

[de_paradise]

Interesting Otis, and I agree with you. On the thinnest of pretexts even, we all have mass murderer in ourselves. What is equally interesting is how people react to this taboo subject. You want to see them wriggle and squirm, try insinuating that they could be a mass murderer, given the right circumstances.

 

I remember back in Uni days for German Lit we read a book called "Berlin Alexanderplatz" by Alfred Doblin which is a deeply psychological novel showing the inner monologs of a typical guy who was to become a Nazi. I remember discussing the book, which I found exceptionally persuasive. But besides me, every student found the character doubtful, that this had nothing to do with them, and the protagnist kind of a bully lunatic, not like them at all. Inwardly I was very shocked at how the class reacted. Its like they have this extreme egoic revulsion to the idea, and man, it wont even let them enertain the idea. (btw, if you havent seen the film by Fassbinder, check it out

 

Another class, this time discussing the MaiLai massacre in Vietnam war, similar to that you see in the film "Apocolypse Now" Again, none of the class could understand that it could have been them, or how the soldiers could have done that. I even said to the class that I am sure every one of them had they been there, would have participated (killing innocent unarmed men, women and children till they were all dead) because I had already experienced army training, and I knew its power. But Ive since revised my opinion that they could have been the killer with a much much thinner pretext. But my comment did not fly well with the class, and its as if by saying it out loud you somehow implicate yourself, but denying it out loud you get to be innocent.

Edited May 16, 2011 by de_paradise

[doc benway]

Well......... yes! Surely.

 

I take your point about not being sure how many here are spiritual practitioners in a serious sense, Iknwym! I still think of the tb community as containing those that although they rarely post, I know are around and very actively engaged in genuine depth work. The level of petty confrontationalism here deters a lot of people from posting.. but they stick around, often, one way or another.

 

 

And I am surprised from you to see what looks like - and forgive me if I have misread - an underestimation of the systemic power of laughter, when as practitioners we know perfectly well that laughter opens channels fast and connects what was disconnected, within the energy body and the larger energy body between people. It is a surefire easy way to include the body in a process which can all too easily become head centric and mere cerebralism.

 

So many times I have seen and experienced huge laughter releases from people practising shamanism, or spontaneous qigong, or people who are in love just giggling so much, because they are open and flowing. Please dont fall into a trap of being dismissive of laughter. That way lies psychological and energetic and spiritual ill health. Laughter is a healing force and a force that draws people together.

 

We puncture inflation and we celebrate our lack of control of events when we laugh... it's pure dao in action.

I didn't mean to dismiss or criticize laughter or humor. When something feels humorous to me, I laugh. When something feels horrific and sad, I cry. Laughter is only healing and healthy for me when spontaneous.

For me to laugh at Otis' OP would have been forced and unnatural. In fact, i've rarely, if ever, seen humor in matters related to Naziism or other examples of genocide. Most likely due to my Jewish background and genealogy. That doesn't mean that I feel other people should not, but I am sensitive to it. One exception for me was the film - Life is Beautiful by Roberto Benigni. I laughed, I cried, I fell in love with that film.

 

On the other hand, laughter at such horrific activity alone, in and of itself, is unlikely to allow the practitioner to fully investigate and reconcile all of the complex feelings and thoughts that are associated with it. Otis' OP seemed to indicate a great deal of pain, suffering, and struggle associated with internalizing this. Several subsequent posts began to explore humorous aspects and those of our community who were open to humor and laughter certainly had the opportunity to take advantage of the approach. I acknowledge your efforts (and that of others) to help bring the healing effects of humor to the table. To me, it felt like there was still a need to explore the topic with a more serious approach.

 

I didn't intend to be critical of those who would find solace and reconciliation through laughter. Unfortunately, this path was not mine to take at the time, or now, so I explored a different approach. I think that both approaches have validity. My choice to approach the topic more seriously and support Otis and Ralis' serious treatment of the subject does not necessarily mean that I dismiss or fail to recognize the value of laughter.

 

That all said, this isn't the first time I've been criticized for being too serious!

I'd be foolish not to learn something from this.

 

Thanks cat

 

[doc benway]

Interesting Otis, and I agree with you. On the thinnest of pretexts even, we all have mass murderer in ourselves. What is equally interesting is how people react to this taboo subject. You want to see them wriggle and squirm, try insinuating that they could be a mass murderer, given the right circumstances.

 

I remember back in Uni days for German Lit we read a book called "Berlin Alexanderplatz" by Alfred Doblin which is a deeply psychological novel showing the inner monologs of a typical guy who was to become a Nazi. I remember discussing the book, which I found exceptionally persuasive. But besides me, every student found the character doubtful, that this had nothing to do with them, and the protagnist kind of a bully lunatic, not like them at all. Inwardly I was very shocked at how the class reacted. Its like they have this extreme egoic revulsion to the idea, and man, it wont even let them enertain the idea. (btw, if you havent seen the film by Fassbinder, check it out

 

I have a friend with a German name from Argentina. I went to his birthday party at his parents' house several years ago.

His father was drunk, recognized that I was a Jew, pulled me aside into a private room and began confessing to me his sins as a German soldier involved in genocide in WWII. He didn't share too many details but it was clear that he spent time working in an extermination camp. It was a very surreal and terrifying experience for me, listening to this old man confess his complicity when many of my family was killed in Europe in WWII in pogroms and camps. I listened for a while and simply told him that I was not in a position to forgive him or absolve him of his guilt.

 

My friend is a beautiful person with very strong moral and ethical character. Could he have committed the sins of his father? Given the right set of circumstances, I do not doubt it.

[三江源]

Hi Steve,

 

Yes, laughter qigong is great.

 

.... I knew I was being a tiny bit controversial in this thread, hoping to stimulate a discussion which might throw up something interesting/unexpected. .... so was just suggested opening further than one might expect into the full humanity of this. One is expected to be numb or blaming or outraged or grief stricken ad infinitum and yet being accepting of our human nature and able to cry and reach laughter is much more healthy. It is really about full mobility, experiencing the spectrum of responses to life, going beyond conditioning. Not being stuck.

 

In fact what Otis is talking about it is going beyond the usual duality of 'self v other' : unconscious mechanisms of conditioning which inevitably externalise psychopathology as 'other' and I am talking about going beyond dualistic conditioning further than that.

 

Going beyond conditioning of course is what happens as art of spiritual practice, and is a practice within itself.

 

You might know of the author Patricia Highsmith and her "Ripley" series , about the highly 'civilised' psychopath who loves fine wine and appreciates lavender smelling wax polish for his antique furniture, and then without demur efficiently kills whomever gets in his way. This character has long been a tagname amongst my colleagues and friends for referring to our 'inner psycho', as ie "Part of me could get quite Ripley about that.."

 

(I remember being told by an jungian analyst a long time ago that I had no problem owning my shadow. I guess this is why I am surprised at the 'difficulty' level of owning shadow as discussed here.. the first thing that happens when we meditate is... SHADOW jumps up at us, ! But of course it is very individual how much of this a person can look in the face and integrate. If we dont do so, we are stuck. And then I wonder how many of us over- identify with the light, which is a sure fire recipe for disaster, and otoh, how many cant quite own that we are , as Michal Lomax says, lightwarriors . ..)

 

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm all for us having and allowing ourselves to have a wide repertoire of responses. Certainly not one instead of another.

 

I just want to add a small something about the nature of laughter. It doesnt exclude heart and it isnt the opposite of taking something seriously.( Once again I am beating the drum of 'dont get trapped into dualising everything!" as much for myself as anything) The old image of giggling schoolchildren getting chalk thrown at them by the teacher is embedded in our collective.. we assume that laughing is an avoidance and that one cannot be paying attention if one is laughing. Is that really true..

 

 

I also think there is something about time passing that allows humour in...it honours the organisms need for reaction to be an ongoing process, for a shift away from grief and shock into a new phase , this is so that the system can be healthy and remain in fluidity. If we stay stuck in grief,or anything else, quite simply, we become ill.. stagnancy ensues.

A serious post about humour..

[Informer]

No, you are not hitler. If you forgo individuality, then you are only everything, how could you be hitler?

 

Hitler would be an aspect.