Good Karma + Bad Karma = ?

[Wells]

I don't believe in karma or reincarnation of an "atman" or something. Even Buddha said that there is no "self" and that after death your energies split up, go into the "recycle bin" and then amalgamate with splitted-up energies of other dead beings to new personalities that reincarnate...which is pretty much the same as in traditional chinese popular belief the splitting-up of the spirits of your organs or so. So your personality or consciousness obviously exists only once.

 

Anyway, just out of curiosity: What do you esoteric / New Age / reincarnation / Hinduist guys think what would karma do to someone who let's say developed high powers through cultivation and then uses them to kill all of his enemies, wiping them all out of existence...but also uses them to heal and help his friends...even gives them from his own so hardly cultivated life-energy to save their lives maybe...or to help them to get their amount of energy together to build their own illusory body.

 

Bad Karma + Good Karma = ???

 

I mean, the guy from John Chang's lineage (the leaf-surfer) killed a whole village with all his men, women and children because they wiped out his home village. Is he burning in hell now or running around as an animal despite his high cultivation or even immortality?

[Gerard]

I'd recommend you starting a serious meditation regime as you may find an answer to this question. Good luck.

[mYTHmAKER]

I don't believe in karma or reincarnation of an "atman" or something. Even Buddha said that there is no "self" and that after death your energies split up, go into the "recycle bin" and then amalgamate with splitted-up energies of other dead beings to new personalities that reincarnate...which is pretty much the same as in traditional chinese popular belief the splitting-up of the spirits of your organs or so. So your personality or consciousness obviously exists only once.

 

Anyway, just out of curiosity: What do you esoteric / New Age / reincarnation / Hinduist guys think what would karma do to someone who let's say developed high powers through cultivation and then uses them to kill all of his enemies, wiping them all out of existence...but also uses them to heal and help his friends...even gives them from his own so hardly cultivated life-energy to save their lives maybe...or to help them to get their amount of energy together to build their own illusory body.

 

Bad Karma + Good Karma = ???

 

I mean, the guy from John Chang's lineage (the leaf-surfer) killed a whole village with all his men, women and children because they wiped out his home village. Is he burning in hell now or running around as an animal despite his high cultivation or even immortality?

 

"Only the shadow knows"

[Marblehead]

 

Bad Karma + Good Karma = ???

 

 

Bad Karma + Good Karma = Cause & Effect

[zerostao]

Bad Karma + Good Karma = Cause & Effect

bad karma + good karma = mixed karma? idk

anyways my karma ran over someone else's dogma.

classic hit and run.

[imonous]

Ok Dorian im gonna bite this one.

 

I don't believe in karma or reincarnation of an "atman" or something. Even Buddha said that there is no "self" and that after death your energies split up, go into the "recycle bin" and then amalgamate with splitted-up energies of other dead beings to new personalities that reincarnate...which is pretty much the same as in traditional chinese popular belief the splitting-up of the spirits of your organs or so. So your personality or consciousness obviously exists only once.

 

IMO there are several ways you can approach this depending on your path:

 

1. In one path there is no such thing as a "past or future". Everything exists now, in that moment now is forever. Your consciousness doesn't exists only once. It exists now to "infinity". Death is possible only in the sense of not being aware of your sense of self.

 

2. You touched upon the next one, there is no self. At least a self that maintains its own personally or consciousness in the first place. So who is it that is really "dying" or reincarnating?

 

 

Anyway, just out of curiosity: What do you esoteric / New Age / reincarnation / Hinduist guys think what would karma do to someone who let's say developed high powers through cultivation and then uses them to kill all of his enemies, wiping them all out of existence...but also uses them to heal and help his friends...even gives them from his own so hardly cultivated life-energy to save their lives maybe...or to help them to get their amount of energy together to build their own illusory body.

 

Bad Karma + Good Karma = ???

 

I mean, the guy from John Chang's lineage (the leaf-surfer) killed a whole village with all his men, women and children because they wiped out his home village. Is he burning in hell now or running around as an animal despite his high cultivation or even immortality?

 

1. Once you cultivate past that point of mind and beliefs, karma doesn't exist. The universe is acting in the universe. You are in it and it is in you. Theres is no guilt or karma for "you" to hold. But here's the thing. You have to genuinely cultivate to this point, you cannot simply rationalize or choose to believe this and have it manifest so. IME karma is a direct manifestation of attachment. If this warrior is firmly grounded in his emptiness of mind & spirit he should be simply moving and acting without second thought, allowing the universe to guide his body so to speak. His actions, events, and himself simply exist. He will not generate karma. His death is welcomed. Did you know that a being by the name of Hitler went to "heaven"?

 

I "bolded" the funny parts.

Edited April 26, 2011 by imonous

[starhawk]

I can't say I know myself well enough with what I know.

I think therefore I am. But do I cease thinking when my body/consciousness splits into a zillion atoms after death? Where do the atoms or information in the quantum foam or whatnot go?

 

This is your question, if I get it right: You seem to doubt causality-- cause and effect. Does it apply to consciousness/soul?

 

My metaquestions to answer your question:

Is the consciousness a type of information? Permeable, impermanent, or as you suggest, consist of like 9 parts? But where does it go? Are any information states retained forever? How long does information permeate and exist? This may yield insight into the soul/consciousness for people seeking knowledge. Does the soul obey the law of thermodynamics, like all matter? Or is the soul not matter?

 

If I throw a stone into a pool, it ripples until the energy stops. If I throw myself into karma, when does the karma stop? So, is morality tied to metaphysics? I think so.

 

How well do you know yourself?

 

 

PS if i steal candy from a baby-- when it grows up 20 years later does it 'remember'?

[thelerner]

I'm not in charge of the whole Shabang, The Universe doesn't ask my opinion on these hard cases, but you did, so here's what I got.

 

I'd lean toward the punishment side. Certainly not an eternity or even life time in hell, but evil (mass killing, woman & children) for so called 'righteous' reasons is a very black mark, more so on an evolved soul then someone who doesn't know better.

 

We all have fantasies of Comic book revenge, but real life keeps going after page 22. Its complicated, there are connections seen and unseen. Whether there is a Score keeper or not, 'Do No Harm' is a pretty good default philosophy to live with; there are times we can't, but we'd better give it adequate thought before we launch plans b & c.

 

Doing right doesn't necessarily earn you any special brownie points in this world, but doing evil leads to a slippery slope where more evil is done.

[Marblehead]

'Do No Harm'

 

I tried using that for a while but my Daoist friends got all over me saying, "It doesn't say that in the TTC."

 

And they were right. Too bad for me.

 

So I changed it.

 

Do no intentional, unnecessary harm.

 

They can't argue with that.

 

Reason being, we have to kill to survive. That is, we need to eat, even if we are vegetarians we are killing plants, perhaps not directly but indirectly, in order to survive. We also kill small insects when we go out walking. Not intentionally but still.

 

Even those who believe in karma, I think, would be beyond judgement for simple acts of survival.

[hagar]

I tried using that for a while but my Daoist friends got all over me saying, "It doesn't say that in the TTC."

 

And they were right. Too bad for me.

 

So I changed it.

 

Do no intentional, unnecessary harm.

 

They can't argue with that.

 

Reason being, we have to kill to survive. That is, we need to eat, even if we are vegetarians we are killing plants, perhaps not directly but indirectly, in order to survive. We also kill small insects when we go out walking. Not intentionally but still.

 

Even those who believe in karma, I think, would be beyond judgement for simple acts of survival.

 

But what if you do not really know the outcome of your actions?

And there is no self and no scorekeeper?

Why does shite happen, or does it just happen?

Edited April 26, 2011 by hagar

[Otis]

What I think of as karma is best illustrated by the Hatfields and McCoys.

 

If I steal your cow, you kill my soldier, so I kill your son, so you rape my daughter. I may not be the one who suffers directly from my "bad" deeds, but I have still created a cycle of havoc and disaster that only harms.

 

Even on a more mundane level, any excess force that I use tears both ways. If I force a square peg into a round hole, then I've damaged the future function of both peg and hole. If I over-punish my child, she will learn to distrust me. If I am an unaware driver, my car and my insurance rates will suffer.

 

There's also an internal karma. If I see someone else as an enemy, then I suffer from the hate I have within me. If I fool myself, in order to make myself feel better, then I suffer from living in self-delusion. If I see myself as superior to some, then I simultaneously buy into the story that I am inferior to others.

 

The Hindu and Christian versions of "cosmic justice", however, don't match anything I experience in the world, so I see no reason to believe in that version of karma.

[Marblehead]

1. But what if you do not really know the outcome of your actions?

2. And there is no self and no scorekeeper?

3. Why does shite happen, or does it just happen?

 

Fair questions. I have answers but they are for my life and might not apply to anyone else's.

 

1. We most often do not know all the ramifications of our actions. We simply do the best we can, based on our philosophy, religion, spiritual path, whatever, and hope our actions have not negatively effected any one or living thing.

 

2. It is my belief that there is a self. Remember, I am a Philosophical Daoist. No, there is no scorekeeper save for ourself and those we have direct relationships with. We have to live with with the deeds we do.

 

3. Stuff happens because stuff happens. Bears do their thing in the woods. If we go walking in the woods and are not watchful of where we are walking we may well step into what the bears did. I know a lot of people who fell into a big pile and came out smelling like a rose. There are many people who do evil but never get caught. There are children starving to death every single day. I can't believe that if there were an overseer that things like this would be allowed to happen.

[Marblehead]

What I think of as karma is best illustrated by the Hatfields and McCoys.

 

If I steal your cow, you kill my soldier, so I kill your son, so you rape my daughter. I may not be the one who suffers directly from my "bad" deeds, but I have still created a cycle of havoc and disaster that only harms.

 

Yes, I call that cause and effect. It may have started out with something that shold have been meaningless but it was taken personal and neither wanted to lose. An eye for an eye, you know the story.

[Dagon]

This is similar to "nothing is everything and everything is nothing".

 

The outcome is still nothing, however you slice it and combine it.

 

So let's say that the bad karma or negative energy would over-ride the positive energy or good karma. If so bound.

[Dagon]

.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Dagon

[Marblehead]

 

So let's say that the bad karma or negative energy would over-ride the positive energy or good karma. If so bound.

 

Ah, you have thrown a monkey wrench into what I have been saying. And here is why:

 

I do hold to the concept of Chi energy. This energy has the polarities of Yin (negative) and Yang (positive). When we put out negative-dominant energies into the universe it does effect the universal energies to a certain degree. These energies effect those we have direct contact with.

 

I do believe that we effect others in this manner as well as what we do in the physical world. However, does negative energy come back to us if we emit negative energy? I don't know.

[Apech]

Ah, you have thrown a monkey wrench into what I have been saying. And here is why:

 

I do hold to the concept of Chi energy. This energy has the polarities of Yin (negative) and Yang (positive). When we put out negative-dominant energies into the universe it does effect the universal energies to a certain degree. These energies effect those we have direct contact with.

 

I do believe that we effect others in this manner as well as what we do in the physical world. However, does negative energy come back to us if we emit negative energy? I don't know.

 

Positive and negative of yin and yang is not the same a positive and negative of action generating karma. The first is the action and responsiveness of energy itself and the second is about how if you do negative (Bad) things then they tend to generate negative (bad) results in the future.

 

As you said above its all about cause and effect - and cause and effect is there because nature is a continuum - there are no gaps in it - so any action inevitably results in something ... hence karma = action.

 

My take is that some actions promote harmony and integration e.g. love, respect and kindness to others. The effect of this kind of life is a kind of snowball effect of greater and greater wellbeing (although you have to count in all that went before of course) - while the effect of violent acts (for instance) is unpredictable and chaotic ... even when the violence is 'justified' ... for instance even though WW2 can be justified as a fight against fascism the trauma of the results of the violence have rippled through history ever since causing many social and personal problems which we see today. But you can't say (or I don't think you can) that we shouldn't have fought Hitler ... sometimes you have to bite the bullet even when you know the outcome might be very difficult. So the choices are a lot harder than just lets all be good as gold and never hurt a fly ...

[Sloppy Zhang]

Even Buddha said that there is no "self" and that after death your energies split up, go into the "recycle bin" and then amalgamate with splitted-up energies of other dead beings to new personalities that reincarnate...which is pretty much the same as in traditional chinese popular belief the splitting-up of the spirits of your organs or so. So your personality or consciousness obviously exists only once.

 

From my understanding, karma exists in this instance as well. It is just that the karma is not being attached to a single spiritual entity, which is added and subtracted to their karma balance, which is totaled up at their death.

 

Rather, energies separate and come together in accordance with the various karmic factors that are around.

 

"Dorian Black" might not inherently have a self. But an energetic configuration might exist such that it is one parts ignorant karma, one parts likes TTB's karma. But because this configuration ponders a lot, it might rid itself of the karma for being ignorant. But in the process, gain the karma for over-intellectualizing. All throughout, however, it maintains the karma for using The Tao Bums, so when it reincarnates it may be in the form of a different person, but simply be comming back to TTB's as a different energetic configuration.

 

But it won't be "Dorian Black", per se, who reincarnates. It will be TTB karma + over-intellectualizing karma. You weren't tallied up at death and ordered to come back here.

 

Then it may resolve its TTB karma, but retain the intellectualizing, so then become a college professor.

 

Notice that none of these example inherently requires "death".

 

And notice how at each point, it is never inherently something that has a type of karma ON in. It is never in possession of, or hidden by, karma. Rather, the thing IS the karma. However, it identifies, or is identified, as something like "bum" or "professor", etc.

 

If the karma resolved/gets resolved, there is nothing.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Dagon]

I think that the unique aspect of pure love is that it is truly unbound.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Dagon

[Dagon]

No-self is a pointer for those who are ready to see through the illusion of the ego and find the true self.

 

People often get lost in the paradox of this, which is why I feel that it is better to start the root and piercing chakra's from the bottom up instead of the top down.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Dagon

[Sloppy Zhang]

No-self is a pointer for those who are ready to see through the illusion of the ego and find the true self.

 

Given that I was not a native speaking the language or hearing the message at the time.....

 

When someone says "there is no self", I tend to think they mean "there is no self." Not "there is no lower self but there is a higher self."

 

Now I'm not saying you have to believe that. But I don't think we should try to read our own conflicting ideas into an existing teaching just because we..... well I don't really want to know why you'd want to do it. To raise an argument that all teachings are the same? I dunno.

 

Let it be its thing, don't try and change it so that you can make it sound like something that will help you sleep at night or something.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Dagon]

I would never change my position on that. I know what nothing is and I know that is not totality.

[Dagon]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html

 

"In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible."

 

It wasn't coined "The Middle Way" for nothing.

[Sloppy Zhang]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html

 

"In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible."

 

It wasn't coined "The Middle Way" for nothing.

 

But that doesn't mean that there is a higher self.

 

It means that while there might not be a self, there's not not a self.

 

And it's not middle of the road as in compromising by saying there is no lower self but to balance out there is a higher self.

 

But that it's some non-dual sort of thing. But to say that there is a non-dual explanation is to go to the extreme, it's just as bad as saying there ISN'T something.

 

Ah, duality. Impossible to communicate with

[Dagon]

It simply means both are true and false.

 

There is a self and there isn't a self.

 

So how could there only be no-self?

 

I know I may sound argumentative right now, but I am just trying to see your point of view.