The real history of Tibet introduction... more to come

[wingzero]

In Nixi I spoke with Kesang's father and came to understand the complexities of the Tibetan situation. His father was an indentured servant in the old Kham Tibet. When the Communist revolution happened in 1949, he joined the fight against the old order. The Party sent him into Zhongdian for training to become a doctor, which he completed. Thus, he moved from the village, and from the farming life, to the city as a result of revolution. He did not make a lot of money as a physician in Maoist China - and his wife's family complained about his poor prospects as a husband (he couldn't get up into the mountains to find the wild mushrooms and greens common in the local cuisine, nor bring down the firewood). But his marriage survived and he and his wife raised four children. He eventually moved back to the village, where he now owns land, a comfortable house (complete with satellite dish), and has several sources of income (pension; crops; pottery; tourism).

 

With this experience it is unsurprising that he is an ardent supporter of the Communist Party and the current status quo for Tibetans. In his lifetime, his family has gone from indentured servitude to thriving entrepreneurialism. They are Tibetans who have found a way to prosper under Chinese rule, and in Shangri-la they are not alone. Russ and I visited a very nice, up-scale hotel and were told that the owner is Tibetan. Other Tibetans I met are finding niches in the new economy. For many, the sting of Han rule, and especially the loss of control over their own historical narrative, is still felt. But the possibilities of a better material life dissipate overt political opposition.

http://uselesstree.typepad.com/useless_tree/2011/04/to-shangri-la-and-back.html

 

What are your thoughts on Tibetan history and the Dalai Lhama being a aristocrat and CIA stooge that organize armed guerilla's... more info to come

[Jetsun]

The Dalai Lama has given up his political status and the Tibetans in exile elected a new Prime Minister a few days ago http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/world/asia/28tibet.html?_r=2&ref=world

I always thought the Chinese propaganda about the Dalai Lama was so ridiculous that noone took it seriously

[thelerner]

The Dalai Lama has given up his political status and the Tibetans in exile elected a new Prime Minister a few days ago http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/world/asia/28tibet.html?_r=2&ref=world

I always thought the Chinese propaganda about the Dalai Lama was so ridiculous that noone took it seriously

 

Me too. For most of its history (though not currently), thriving entrepreneurialism and the communist party were mutually exclusive. The part about almost starving to death under Mao rings true. For millions, probably ten's of millions it wasn't almost though. His policies were murderous and backwards. His Cultural Revolution, what an oxymoron did more to destroy Chinese culture then any invasion ever had.

 

my 2 cents.

 

another few pennies.

This is a Taoist board. When the communists took power they destroyed monasteries and imprisoned everyone connected to them. Thousands were killed, more were sent to concentrationlike work camps. Don't expect a whole lot of sympathy here for them.

 

Its ironic at a time when established doctors were having everything taken away from them and sent to subsistence farming your story has the opposite, except both parties were in extreme poverty for a decade or 3, until China stopped being communistic.

 

I think you're right to say Tibet wasn't a Shangri La, but its no excuse for China's shameful conduct.

Edited April 29, 2011 by thelerner

[gendao]

http://uselesstree.typepad.com/useless_tree/2011/04/to-shangri-la-and-back.html

 

What are your thoughts on Tibetan history and the Dalai Lhama being a aristocrat and CIA stooge that organize armed guerilla's... more info to come

Yup, Communism has utterly destroyed every country its ever infected.

 

Interesting and gritty interview with a Tibetan monk

The cultural Revolution to what extent were daoist treasures destroyed

Ya Mu's qigong teacher was jailed by Communists for 17 years...

 

So, really what the Tibetan monk in the interview has to thank for a higher standard of living is the rise of capitalism in China over the last few decades - NOT Communism.

 

And of course, America only focuses on Tibet (whilst ignoring far worse situations around the world) to bash/destabilize China and gain influence in a strategic location that they would love to acquire. This is not to say that Tibet hasn't suffered under Communism or that any area in the world doesn't necessarily have a right to fight for its own sovereignty. Just that these facets are highlighted to the exclusion of all others due to a hegemonic political agenda.

 

The US basically has no real interest in "human rights" or "democracy" anywhere. These rationales are simply used to justify operations actually driven by resource acquisition and economic rivalries..

[ralis]

Yup, Communism has utterly destroyed every country its ever infected.

 

Interesting and gritty interview with a Tibetan monk

The cultural Revolution to what extent were daoist treasures destroyed

Ya Mu's qigong teacher was jailed by Communists for 17 years...

 

So, really what the Tibetan monk in the interview has to thank for a higher standard of living is the rise of capitalism in China over the last few decades - NOT Communism.

 

And of course, America only focuses on Tibet (whilst ignoring far worse situations around the world) to bash/destabilize China and gain influence in a strategic location that they would love to acquire. This is not to say that Tibet hasn't suffered under Communism or that any area in the world doesn't necessarily have a right to fight for its own sovereignty. Just that these facets are highlighted to the exclusion of all others due to a hegemonic political agenda.

 

The US basically has no real interest in "human rights" or "democracy" anywhere. These rationales are simply used to justify operations actually driven by resource acquisition and economic rivalries..

 

 

China is still a communist dictatorship with capitalist markets.

[wingzero]

Me too. For most of its history (though not currently), thriving entrepreneurialism and the communist party were mutually exclusive. The part about almost starving to death under Mao rings true. For millions, probably ten's of millions it wasn't almost though. His policies were murderous and backwards. His Cultural Revolution, what an oxymoron did more to destroy Chinese culture then any invasion ever had.

 

my 2 cents.

 

another few pennies.

This is a Taoist board. When the communists took power they destroyed monasteries and imprisoned everyone connected to them. Thousands were killed, more were sent to concentrationlike work camps. Don't expect a whole lot of sympathy here for them.

 

Its ironic at a time when established doctors were having everything taken away from them and sent to subsistence farming your story has the opposite, except both parties were in extreme poverty for a decade or 3, until China stopped being communistic.

 

I think you're right to say Tibet wasn't a Shangri La, but its no excuse for China's shameful conduct.

 

That was part of Mao's Revolutionary plan, who knows what he had in mind. But I would advise you read this book that offers credible Academic citing of the history of Tibet.

 

Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West

 

I guess the west idea of Buddhism in Tibet is quite delusional, If I had to choose between going to

church and practicing Llama. I pick going to church. Seek the truth. The Dalai Lama worked with Nazi's.

There is evidence from Germany.

[Jetsun]

That was part of Mao's Revolutionary plan, who knows what he had in mind. But I would advise you read this book that offers credible Academic citing of the history of Tibet.

 

Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West

 

I guess the west idea of Buddhism in Tibet is quite delusional, If I had to choose between going to

church and practicing Llama. I pick going to church. Seek the truth. The Dalai Lama worked with Nazi's.

There is evidence from Germany.

 

So what are you accusing him of? because the Dalai Lama was only just born when the Nazi's were in power and was three years old probably still shitting in his nappy when the Nazi's made an excursion into Tibet.

[wingzero]

So what are you accusing him of? because the Dalai Lama was only just born when the Nazi's were in power and was three years old probably still shitting in his nappy when the Nazi's made an excursion into Tibet.

 

I accuse him of deception, why are you so quick to jump to your conclusion without doing any serious investigation yourself. I can tell you he is friend with Heinrich Harrer, a member of the Nazi.

Checkout this site than reply: http://www.newspiritualbible.com/index2

If it does not satisfy you, then I'll link you to academic sources.

 

And please answer why he suppresses his own religion Dorje Shugden or ban it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYaDnbAQz2g&feature=related

 

[markern]

Me too. For most of its history (though not currently), thriving entrepreneurialism and the communist party were mutually exclusive. The part about almost starving to death under Mao rings true. For millions, probably ten's of millions it wasn't almost though. His policies were murderous and backwards. His Cultural Revolution, what an oxymoron did more to destroy Chinese culture then any invasion ever had.

 

my 2 cents.

 

another few pennies.

This is a Taoist board. When the communists took power they destroyed monasteries and imprisoned everyone connected to them. Thousands were killed, more were sent to concentrationlike work camps. Don't expect a whole lot of sympathy here for them.

 

Its ironic at a time when established doctors were having everything taken away from them and sent to subsistence farming your story has the opposite, except both parties were in extreme poverty for a decade or 3, until China stopped being communistic.

 

I think you're right to say Tibet wasn't a Shangri La, but its no excuse for China's shameful conduct.

 

Sometimes when this is discussed some people say "well yeah, but I think most of that was kinda necessary to get china to were it is today" to which I reply well you do know that the people whom the revolution toppled fled to Taiwan and managed to get that country wealthy and well run wihtout any of the suffereing the commuist party pu the mainland through and today Taiwan is a democracy and china might not become a democracy for the next 50 years even. THat shuts them up.

[markern]

That was part of Mao's Revolutionary plan, who knows what he had in mind. But I would advise you read this book that offers credible Academic citing of the history of Tibet.

 

Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West

 

I guess the west idea of Buddhism in Tibet is quite delusional, If I had to choose between going to

church and practicing Llama. I pick going to church. Seek the truth. The Dalai Lama worked with Nazi's.

There is evidence from Germany.

If he did how on earth do you think he would ahve known anything meaningfull about what a nazi was and hence judge him when he barely knew anything about the outside world as Tibet had almost no contact with hte rest of the world.

[wingzero]

Sometimes when this is discussed some people say "well yeah, but I think most of that was kinda necessary to get china to were it is today" to which I reply well you do know that the people whom the revolution toppled fled to Taiwan and managed to get that country wealthy and well run wihtout any of the suffereing the commuist party pu the mainland through and today Taiwan is a democracy and china might not become a democracy for the next 50 years even. THat shuts them up.

 

I am not a Chinese or an American but I can tell you I am a truth seeker and a holder of the flame of light, which shall shine light upon darkness and deceit. Well, since you show signs of ignorance. Let me give you some basic education education on the Kuomintang. Do you know why they lost the civil war with China. The reason was that they did not liberate the peasants from the landlords, the educated class, which backed the Kuomintang. That is why they lost to China in a communist civil war. I bet they could have achieved what China has achieved in bringing 300 million people out of poverty and working to develop the whole country. We all know the Kuomintang are just bananas. They only serve western interest not China's interest. Taiwan only manage to get wealthy with help from western investor and financing. The same goes for China, it's all logical. The only reason China had such a bad decade was because it was closed off and the U.S. put a embargo on trade, in addition to some of Mao's bad policy.

 

Democracy, what a Joke, Democracy is run by money. So much for your talk on Democracy, Democracy as a tool for war, BRAVO. My heart goes out to the people of Iraq for going through all the suffering a Democratic country has put them through. Sure, "Shut Up", when you have no argument you tell others to shut up. By the way, your claim of Democracy being so great is a joke in India.

[Jetsun]

I accuse him of deception, why are you so quick to jump to your conclusion without doing any serious investigation yourself. I can tell you he is friend with Heinrich Harrer, a member of the Nazi.

Checkout this site than reply: http://www.newspiritualbible.com/index2

If it does not satisfy you, then I'll link you to academic sources.

 

That is a pretty hilarious site thanks for the link, I see they are connecting Oprah Winfrey with Nazism too You should watch the film Seven Years in Tibet where Brad Pitt plays Heinrich Harrer, it's pretty good.

[wingzero]

If he did how on earth do you think he would ahve known anything meaningfull about what a nazi was and hence judge him when he barely knew anything about the outside world as Tibet had almost no contact with hte rest of the world.

 

So, What do you think made the Nazi's so interested in Llama. That is something very disturbing, it's because of the occult that the Dalai Lama Practice that drew the Nazi's to him. You won't even believe the kind of occult that the Dalai Lama practice if I told you it included sacrificing humans. If he knew nothing about the out side world than why did he accept help and funding from the CIA in establishing rebels to destabilize Tibet. I thought he was a peaceful man.

[VCraigP]

agent provacateour

 

 

Minister of dis information

 

Not Chinese? Not American certainly.

 

Come to TTB with an Agenda? We all seek self education. I doubt you can teach here.

 

Peace.

[wingzero]

That is a pretty hilarious site thanks for the link, I see they are connecting Oprah Winfrey with Nazism too You should watch the film Seven Years in Tibet where Brad Pitt plays Heinrich Harrer, it's pretty good.

If that isn't good enough for you, then here is the links to academic sources and journals. Why don't you ponder why the links have been disconnected. Although most link work, its just the Nazi links that have been removed, but the Nazi link at the top should still be work. It's difficult to swallow the truth isn't it. Scholars are exposing the Dalai Lama for who he really is. http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/EN/links.htm#NAZI

 

Oh, By the way the book I mentioned above shows how self delusional western mentality is, beware of the information war.

 

Fascist Occultism and its close relationship to Buddhist Tantrism

 

www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-2-12.htm

 

Hitler, Buddha, Krishna - An unholy alliance from the Third Reich to the present day

 

www.trimondi.de/H-B-K/inhalt.hi.en.htm

 

www.trimondi.de/H-B-K/bookreview.en.htm

 

And Please answer why his follower on this link try to expose him to help him.

 

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/dalai-lama/why-expose-dalai-lama/

 

No thanks, I think I will pass with the Brad Pitt movie, anything from Hollywood is in service to his holiness the celebrity himself. Why don't you watch:

Seven Lies about Tibet and His Holiness

 

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acHkXqik_Bo

Edited April 30, 2011 by wingzero

[wingzero]

agent provacateour

 

 

Minister of dis information

 

Not Chinese? Not American certainly.

 

Come to TTB with an Agenda? We all seek self education. I doubt you can teach here.

 

Peace.

 

No agenda at all, just shedding light on darkness. You're entitle to believe in whatever you want.

[Jetsun]

Out of boredom I will engage in this. The Dalai Lama has travelled for a large proportion of his life, in that time he has met all sorts of people from all walks of life, he believes all humans want to be happy and avoid suffering therefore deep down we are all the same, so he doesn't discriminate who he meets and who he is compassionate towards, he even said he thought George Bush was a nice man when he met him. Just because he meets someone and is compassionate towards them it doesn't mean that he sympathises or supports their ideas.

 

When he met Heinrich Harrer he was a child of 11 years old and it was before the horrors of Nazism were revealed to the world yet you still try to equate him as being some sort Nazi sympathiser just for knowing one German when he was a child. Do you not see how insane that is?

 

The website you linked criticises him for eating meat, but he has to eat meat because of his constitution, as he once tried to become a vegetarian and it almost killed him.

 

My understanding of the Shugden issue is that in his study the Dalai Lama discovered that there may be harmful consequences for the practitioners who focus on the shugden deity so he recommended against it. There is no dharma police who will arrest you if you continue with shugden, it's completely up to you, he just recommends against it.

 

The Chinese accuse him of all sorts of things yet if you examine what he asks for he doesn't even ask for Tibetan independence, he asks for religious freedom and equality and the stopping of forced migration to dilute the Tibetan population. Some accuse of him of being militant yet where is the violence and terrorist attacks? They accuse him of being a power hungry dictator yet he has given up all his political power and positions.

[VCraigP]

No agenda at all, just shedding light on darkness. You're entitle to believe in whatever you want.

 

Denying doesn't negate the intention of your activity. I am free to interpret actions and their meanings.

 

ta ta for now

[wingzero]

Out of boredom I will engage in this. The Dalai Lama has travelled for a large proportion of his life, in that time he has met all sorts of people from all walks of life, he believes all humans want to be happy and avoid suffering therefore deep down we are all the same, so he doesn't discriminate who he meets and who he is compassionate towards, he even said he thought George Bush was a nice man when he met him. Just because he meets someone and is compassionate towards them it doesn't mean that he sympathises or supports their ideas.

 

When he met Heinrich Harrer he was a child of 11 years old and it was before the horrors of Nazism were revealed to the world yet you still try to equate him as being some sort Nazi sympathiser just for knowing one German when he was a child. Do you not see how insane that is?

 

The website you linked criticises him for eating meat, but he has to eat meat because of his constitution, as he once tried to become a vegetarian and it almost killed him.

 

My understanding of the Shugden issue is that in his study the Dalai Lama discovered that there may be harmful consequences for the practitioners who focus on the shugden deity so he recommended against it. There is no dharma police who will arrest you if you continue with shugden, it's completely up to you, he just recommends against it.

 

The Chinese accuse him of all sorts of things yet if you examine what he asks for he doesn't even ask for Tibetan independence, he asks for religious freedom and equality and the stopping of forced migration to dilute the Tibetan population. Some accuse of him of being militant yet where is the violence and terrorist attacks? They accuse him of being a power hungry dictator yet he has given up all his political power and positions.

 

He continue to meet Nazi's even as he got older, including work for the CIA.

The Shugden belief completely proved the Dalai Lama as a liar. Thank you for confirming how the Dalai Lama has turned against the Buddhism he has been following all his life than suddenly turn around and confront it as evil.Besides, why does he ban his followers of shugden from attending his teaching. And why is he constructing a new buddhism to teach his supporters.

If that is true then why are there scholars and people who have found the Dalai Lama to have lied about the situation in Tibet as a Shangri-La, when in fact the place was hell on earth. Oh! He doesn't advocate for free Tibet, that completely contradict his action of supporting the cia in funding terrorism to free Tibet. What a hypocrite. He even disappointed Howard Zinn an American historian, academic, author, playwright, and social activist. Who knew the Dalai Lama would support war in the case that involved Iraq.

 

He has given up his power? Why does he go around preaching like a celebrity as if he is a god, with so many blind followers in believing and holding on to every word.

Edited April 30, 2011 by wingzero

[Apech]

He continue to meet Nazi's even as he got older, including work for the CIA.

The Shugden belief completely proved the Dalai Lama as a liar. Thank you for confirming how the Dalai Lama has turned against the Buddhism he has been following all his life than suddenly turn around and confront it as evil.Besides, why does he ban his followers of shugden from attending his teaching. And why is he constructing a new buddhism to teach his supporters.

If that is true then why are there scholars and people who have found the Dalai Lama to have lied about the situation in Tibet as a Shangri-La, when in fact the place was hell on earth. Oh! He doesn't advocate for free Tibet, that completely contradict his action of supporting the cia in funding terrorism to free Tibet. What a hypocrite. He even disappointed Howard Zinn an American historian, academic, author, playwright, and social activist. Who knew the Dalai Lama would support war in the case that involved Iraq.

 

He has given up his power? Why does he go around preaching like a celebrity as if he is a god, with so many blind followers in believing and holding on to every word.

 

Wingzero,

 

Your comments don't seem very balanced to me. The sites you link to all push the same kind of line on the DL without any discussion.

 

There is no doubt that Tibet was a feudal society lead by a religious and aristocratic elite. However its 'liberation' by the Chinese was harsh in the extreme. There were many documented crimes against the Tibetans and their culture.

 

Once in exile the DL has used the growing popularity of Tibetan Buddhism in the west to his advantage and he has achieved a kind of celebrity status. You seem to see this as a wholly bad thing while others might say he was playing the only card he had against the overwhelming superior power of China itself.

 

I am sure the CIA are quite happy to have the DL as a kind of pressure on the Chinese and I imagine they are active in Tibet - just as they are in most of the world - but this does not mean the DL works for, or is an agent of the CIA.

 

The Dorje Shugden issue has been discussed endlessly and is based entirely on the fact that he considers this practice to be antithetical ... people do still practice it and he hasn't stopped them.

 

People are free to listen to the DL and make what they wish of him. There is a free exchange of ideas in the democratic west, which is more than you can say for China itself. You think democracy is a joke - well that's up to you - but your freedom to say such a thing is protected by the principles of western democracy - i.e. individual liberty and the rule of law.

 

 

 

Just because the Nazis (rather like the Victorian English) projected some of their own views into various indian philosophies including Buddhism, and that the DL met a German national when he was a child does not make the DL a Nazi. It just doesn't and it is a ridiculous argument.

[Pero]

I don't know why you guys bother. Saw the thread. Saw the number of posts of the creator (2). All was clear.

[wingzero]

[thelerner]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I think you can make a good argument that old time Tibet was not the pristine wholesome religious place many in the West have idolized it to be. Still IMO you come off a little cracked when you equate the DL with so much evil. Equating him with Nazi's is ludicrous in the extreme. His work and words speak for themselves, they have for decades.

 

If you're right (& I'm guessing no one on this site thinks that) then if someone so bad could do so much good, and have such positive inspiring teachings, then I say Hurray for the Devil, he's doing more good then the saints.

 

 

One mans opinion

Edited May 1, 2011 by thelerner

[Apech]

Are you saying that the west doesn't promote the same one-sided delusional picture of Tibet and the Dalai Lama. Those sites are completely authentic. What isn't authentic I will tell you, is western society constructing Shangri-La as a wonderful place when it was a hellhole on earth. Well, we're having a discussion right now. What did you expect from articles that would subject his holiness to criticism.

 

The media are incapable of handling anything properly - so they do promote a rather naive and patronizing image of both DL and old Tibet. But anyone who looks into these things quickly develops a more realistic view.

 

Where are the documents, why didn't you link them to your post. Or could it be that those document are just as one sided from the mainstream media and institution.

 

I don't have time to link to this information but it is easy enough to find. You are only linking to a selecting of sites which are all linked anyway.

 

 

Oh, where did I say it was a bad thing, what I said was his holiness deception is the bad thing. Yes, his card of playing the tension card to create tensions between the relations between nations. Very good!

 

Oh well I found your posts to be generally critical.

 

I am glad his holiness serves an agency that creates terrorist and traffics drug. Oh, don't worry there is evidence his holiness serves the EVIL GESTAPO called the CIA.

 

First you have to establish that the DL 'serves' the CIA and then that they are an Evil Gestapo i.e. an internal secret political police.

 

Why does his supporters who follow Dorje Shugden accuse him of suppressing their religious practice, and not accepting them.

 

Because he has said that their practice is harmful ... but he hasn't stopped them doing it.

 

Let me clear one thing up, I am not speaking for China but for myself as a truth seeker only. When did I say I was against democracy? You are so hilarious.

 

You seem to prefer Chinese anti-DL propaganda - I don't know why.

 

Well, it just goes to show that he is one sick and disgusting spiritual leader.

 

Well, obviously you don't follow the DL - do you practice? What form of practice do you do and who in your opinion is a good spiritual leader?

[三江源]

Wingzero, to speak to a bunch of cultivators as if they need external 'facts' about a person in order to ascertain their character is just misplaced.