What are "Other People"?

[stan herman]

I agree with you. I have a much better time reserving my judgment, then I do really loving.

 

Actually, I think I am learning to love with clarity, generosity and grace, but it's pretty new.

 

My problem with 'other people' is more that: I am sometimes easily irritated by them. I hate being in a bad mood around others, because I do and say all the wrong toxic things, plus the awkwardness feels awful. So I have developed a lot of habits of avoiding situations in which I might get irritated, and become a lone wolf, thereby.

 

I feel like the path that's calling me to it, is to practice being with other people, even if I'm irritated, so I get used to that situation which I fear, and stop letting it make choices for me. Hopefully, I'll also find that the tendency towards irritation gets less bothersome, because I fear it less.

 

Here's something that works for me: Don't try to reform! Just NOTICE what is happening with you--things like your pattern and sequence of thoughts and feelings when you get into being irritated, also your physical reactions--breath, muscle tension, things like that. DO NOT try to change anything. Before long you'll see the patterns pretty clearly. With repetition you'll get better and better at noticing. Soon you will notice changes in your reactions. Some people relate this to 'burning karmic seeds'.

[Birch]

Sometimes other people irritate us because they cross the very same thing in ourselves. I think the trick is to file down the buttons that we wear on our chest for people to push. When there are no buttons left, they can push all they want and it doesn't phase us.

 

Ah, this one I've always had an issue with Manitou:-) What's your "sometimes" caveat? I personally don't believe one needs to have "buttons" to push to recognize things like aggression (including the passive kind :-)) disrespect, unkindness, selfishness etc.

 

However, I do agree that the reaction to such lies within oneself. In my case, that includes not putting up with quite as much BS as I did previously

[doc benway]

 

So, my question for the Bums is: who are these mysterious "other people" that are hinted at, but never truly experienced? How do I interact with someone, when I know that I'm really interacting with my simulacrum of them? How do we have compassion for "other people", when the only "other people" that we experience are in our heads? Can I find out who the actual person is, or is there no end to that delusion?

This is a great topic for study and spent a lot of time working with it. It's been brilliantly treated by Jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello - my two heroes. This is a very exciting area of investigation and very challenging!!

 

When we enter into a relationship, what really happens is that the image "I" have of myself interacts with the image "I" have of the other. No one treats this topic of images better than JK. So how are we to replace the image with the real thing?

 

Only one way - Awareness. This is Demello's forte. We need to open ourselves up totally to the other person. Look, listen, smell, taste, feel (tactilely, emotionally, energetically), read between the lines. Every moment needs to be about a fresh, unbiased look at the person. Is this possible?

 

Another area JK shines in - the idea of dropping all conditioning and bias. Lots of questions come up and we can discuss and compare notes and experience and theorize till the cows come home. Only one way to find out if it is possible. Do it! And you need to apply yourself with all of your energy. It takes enormous energy to be fresh in every moment, not only with yourself but with the other. Can it happen???

 

Practice for a year or so and you tell me! Because this does not come in a day or a month. It takes time and diligence to live this way.

 

After working at this for a long time, the other variable that comes into the equation is, what happens if I am successful and can be alive and fresh and in a relationship - will the other also do the same? Hard enough for one to do it, but two? Can it happen? Does it need to?

 

The answers are dead - no need to try and answer these questions. Only the question is alive because the question stimulates action in those who care to devote themselves to such pursuits. Your answer is as meaningless to me as mine is to you. But as long as the question is there and you and I have the interest and energy to work on it diligently, we will know.

[manitou]

Ah, this one I've always had an issue with Manitou:-) What's your "sometimes" caveat? I personally don't believe one needs to have "buttons" to push to recognize things like aggression (including the passive kind :-)) disrespect, unkindness, selfishness etc.

 

However, I do agree that the reaction to such lies within oneself. In my case, that includes not putting up with quite as much BS as I did previously

 

 

The 'sometimes' thing I guess I just threw in because it sounds a little friendlier. You're right. It doesn't need to be there.

 

The reason I have had personal experience with the buttons thing is because of Alcoholics Anonymous. I had to file the buttons down to stay sober - that's the way the 12 steps work. But the steps brought me to this place, wherever it is, here with you. (along with plenty of reading). Both the inner and outer dynamic in tandem. The steps are a rough but quick way to get in. that's only my personal experience, Kate. I'm just glad to be here in such good company, regardless of the painful clearning out process.

[Otis]

When we enter into a relationship, what really happens is that the image "I" have of myself interacts with the image "I" have of the other. No one treats this topic of images better than JK. So how are we to replace the image with the real thing?

 

Only one way - Awareness. This is Demello's forte. We need to open ourselves up totally to the other person. Look, listen, smell, taste, feel (tactilely, emotionally, energetically), read between the lines. Every moment needs to be about a fresh, unbiased look at the person. Is this possible?

 

Another area JK shines in - the idea of dropping all conditioning and bias. Lots of questions come up and we can discuss and compare notes and experience and theorize till the cows come home. Only one way to find out if it is possible. Do it! And you need to apply yourself with all of your energy. It takes enormous energy to be fresh in every moment, not only with yourself but with the other. Can it happen???

 

Practice for a year or so and you tell me! Because this does not come in a day or a month. It takes time and diligence to live this way.

Excellent, Steve, thanks.

 

My beliefs match what you have written. But I find myself sometimes triggered (I let my buttons get pushed) by other people, so my awareness becomes eclipsed by irritation. I do feel called to practice, like you suggest, but I'm afraid of being irritated around others, because of the social karma of my attitude. So I resist practice, because I don't want to alienate, but then I stay alienated, because I'm afraid of practice. Any thoughts?

[Birch]

The 'sometimes' thing I guess I just threw in because it sounds a little friendlier. You're right. It doesn't need to be there.

 

The reason I have had personal experience with the buttons thing is because of Alcoholics Anonymous. I had to file the buttons down to stay sober - that's the way the 12 steps work. But the steps brought me to this place, wherever it is, here with you. (along with plenty of reading). Both the inner and outer dynamic in tandem. The steps are a rough but quick way to get in. that's only my personal experience, Kate. I'm just glad to be here in such good company, regardless of the painful clearning out process.

 

Yes I think there is a process. But I'm not exactly sure what it is and whether it just wouldn't happen naturally anyway.

 

Throughout my practices (because I dabble a bunch :-)), I am surprised about just how much pain there is. And also how scared I am of it. But IMO/IME practice is a way of jumping back into it, just so one doesn't end up doing all kinds of wrong to oneself (and others) because one is trying to avoid the pain yet again.

 

A parallel would be when you bang your finger on something and then in your contraction and focus on your hurt finger (I'm saying that because I got mine trapped in a folding table earlier today ;-)) you end up not paying attention to the bucket behind you and end up tripping over it (in this case, I almost fell over some chairs but I was very careful to be mindful of how this stuff works for me :-))

 

Or if you hurt your ankle and rather than taking time off to rest it, you go hobbling around and put your back out because you're protecting your ankle. It's a bit of a caricature but I hope you get what I mean.

 

I also think that because practice accelerates this process (i.e. you go looking for your issues and problems and pain and all that to solve) there gets a point where it's like "argh, enough already" and so a certain surrender happens (because at some point you don't have a choice) and things just take their course - which they would probably anyway:-)

[manitou]

 

I also think that because practice accelerates this process (i.e. you go looking for your issues and problems and pain and all that to solve) there gets a point where it's like "argh, enough already" and so a certain surrender happens (because at some point you don't have a choice) and things just take their course - which they would probably anyway:-)

 

Yes - agreed. There certainly is a point of Aaaargh, Enough Already, lol. The recovering alkie then just works Step 11 daily, which is Continuing to take personal inventory and when wrong promptly admitting it.

 

It just keeps the doorstep swept off daily, that's all. If stuff is allowed to pile up, then it's too easy for the alkie to say 'poor me...poor me....pour me a drink....' But over the years it just becomes second nature to do this - you don't even think about it.

Edited May 8, 2011 by manitou

[Aaron]

This thread brings to mind what Watts calls 'the game of black and white'. Simply put people tend to view things as either or, black or white. They fail to recognize the shades of grey that lay between the two or that the two are actually just different spectrums of the same thing. In the same way we tend to view ourselves as being separate from others, when in fact we aren't. The simalcrum we create of that individual is our attempt to identify this person as being separate from ourselves. We fail to see that the other person is in fact intimately connected in the sense that their experience is along the same spectrum of our own experience (existence), that simply viewing someone as being separate does not mean we are separate.

 

Compassion does not arise from understanding that people don't actually exist, but rather it stems from intimately understanding that there is no separation between me and you, but rather we are both "It", just we reside on different spectrums of "It".

 

Aaron

Edited May 8, 2011 by Twinner

[doc benway]

Excellent, Steve, thanks.

 

My beliefs match what you have written. But I find myself sometimes triggered (I let my buttons get pushed) by other people, so my awareness becomes eclipsed by irritation. I do feel called to practice, like you suggest, but I'm afraid of being irritated around others, because of the social karma of my attitude. So I resist practice, because I don't want to alienate, but then I stay alienated, because I'm afraid of practice. Any thoughts?

Absolutely - here is a four part program adapted from Demello. Sorry if I'm wordy or sound like a broken record with this stuff.

 

Step one - recognize the negative emotion as it arises, you've done that. When there is a negative feeling - there is something under there. Something in you, a desire or expectation, that is being denied or rejected. Look for it. It may be subtle and elusive but it's there. Otherwise there would be no negative feeling.

 

Step two - do not identify with the emotion. The emotion is not you, it does not define you. "You" is not depressed/depression. "You" is not irritation. "You" is not anger, anymore than "you" is your name or occupation. Irritation exists, it can be felt like other sensory perceptions. Feel it fully. Notice how it feels physically. Where do you carry it in your body? How does it cause you to act? And so on... Eventually the feeling will diminish and pass. And return... Just be with it. Make space for it. It can be there with you and you will still be you.

 

Step three - understand that the negative feeling is in "you". It does not exist outside of you, outside of your own particular set of biases, conditioning, expectations, preconceptions, desires, and so on. Someone else in your position might feel and respond completely differently. Hence, if you feel irritated as a consequence of what someone else says or does, it is you choosing to do so, or behaving as an automaton based on conditioning, expectations, or desire. It has nothing to do with the other person. They are no more than an empty boat bumping into yours. Only you can give them the power to disturb you. They think they have that power because we have all bought into this grand illusion. But it's all a lie and a consequence of our lifelong addiction to approval. It starts in childhood and controls our entire life unless we see through it. It is the most subtle and pervasive addiction, and tough to kick. This takes a long time to see clearly and even longer to put effectively and consistently into action but it works. I promise you that.

 

Step four - nothing needs to be done. Follow the first three steps patiently and diligently and there is no alternative but to experience change. And when you change, those around you will change, though it's hard to predict exactly what that change will look like.

 

When you begin to really see how this works, you may get very annoyed with having allowed yourself to be so easily manipulated for so long. That's fine, make space for that too. You didn't stand a chance. You were brainwashed from childhood. We all are. Do you see how you are like a puppet on a string, dancing at the sound of other people's words? Try and see the absurdity of it all. Try and see the humor in it. The other person who thinks they can affect and control with their words is even more ridiculous, more entertaining to observe. When they see they are not having the expected effect on you, they may get angry and frustrated. It's laughable but I think it's also important to open up some space in your heart for them too and feel some compassion for them because you were them yesterday.

 

This stuff will take a while to develop, like any skill, and nothing is perfect. You will need to consistently come back to this as you will get distracted and fall into old habits but over time it becomes easier and more natural. Give it a try and see what you think.

It has worked for me quite well and I'm still working on it diligently.

[manitou]

They are no more than an empty boat bumping into yours.

 

 

Nice, Steve. the whole thing, but this word picture is wonderful.

[Marblehead]

They are no more than an empty boat bumping into yours."

 

Nice, Steve. the whole thing, but this word picture is wonderful.

 

Hehehe. We should give Chuang Tzu some credit for that too.

 

Good job Steve!

[Otis]

It really is a fantastic response, Steve F. Lots to meditate on. Thank you.

[Otis]

This stuff will take a while to develop, like any skill, and nothing is perfect. You will need to consistently come back to this as you will get distracted and fall into old habits but over time it becomes easier and more natural. Give it a try and see what you think.

It has worked for me quite well and I'm still working on it diligently.

In fact, the 3 steps above are very much how I approach my own emotions.

 

I think the above quote is really the lynchpin for me, at the moment. It's choosing to practice, even when tired, even when cross, even when I feel susceptible to irritation. That is what I've been avoiding, and that avoidance puts me right back into my old habits.

 

Intellectually, I understand that step 4 is necessary: be aware, but change nothing. Don't force a change, because then my system will not learn its own path out of that mood.

 

Emotionally, it's hard to do, because that means "be aware that I'm in a bad mood around others, but don't change it". I think that's the wisest course for practice, but it's the hardest one, when viewed through the lens of my social fear. It's when in that mood that everything I say and do, seems to come out wrong.

 

But it's also clear that social avoidance is also problematic, and loses me friends (nearly) as fast as being socially clumsy.

 

I realize that TTB is one place for practice, in which I can observe the emotions, and have plenty of time and space, in which to still act with clarity. Facebook is also good practice for staying in the realm of the constructive. And I should probably say yes more to eating lunch with people at work, etc. But I'm a bit addicted to alone time as my re-centering time. I guess I need to challenge that addiction, and face those avoidances, and really commit to practice.

[doc benway]

In fact, the 3 steps above are very much how I approach my own emotions.

 

....

 

Intellectually, I understand that step 4 is necessary: be aware, but change nothing. Don't force a change, because then my system will not learn its own path out of that mood.

 

Excellent. Regarding step 4, I think that a consistent and diligent practice of awareness is a profound change for most of us. Beyond that, I don't know if we can really change how we feel and if we force it, the non-verbal communication still betrays our true feelings I think. Good luck. I've had some pretty bad patches over the past few years. It's definitely a long term project.

[Otis]

Excellent. Regarding step 4, I think that a consistent and diligent practice of awareness is a profound change for most of us. Beyond that, I don't know if we can really change how we feel and if we force it, the non-verbal communication still betrays our true feelings I think. Good luck. I've had some pretty bad patches over the past few years. It's definitely a long term project.

Thanks, Steve.

[manitou]

Excellent. Regarding step 4, I think that a consistent and diligent practice of awareness is a profound change for most of us. Beyond that, I don't know if we can really change how we feel and if we force it, the non-verbal communication still betrays our true feelings I think. Good luck. I've had some pretty bad patches over the past few years. It's definitely a long term project.

 

 

Yes, agreed....it is a long term process. And it seems to me that as things clear out of our insides there is more room for Love to move in. That is one of the Sage's treasures.

[Jetsun]

I guess it's impossible to see another person for who they really are until we have seen ourselves in our totality, otherwise we will project onto them according to our own perceptions, but then on the other hand they can also be our greatest teachers about ourselves because they can show us our shadow disowned parts of ourselves.

 

For shadow work other people are crucial, much of that shadow stuff cannot be dealt with very easily on the meditation cushion or in retreat because we lie to ourselves too easily. Essentially whenever you get a strong emotional reaction to other people it is very likely some of your shadow has been triggered, so the emotional reaction you get can be a trigger to take notice and examine your own judgements towards that person as whatever you are rejecting in the other person will also be something you reject in yourself. So in this respect the more annoying the person and difficult the situation the better.

 

There is a story if I can remember it correctly about a Russian man who lived with Gurdjieff in their teaching house or ashram in Paris after the Second World War. This man by all accounts was the most annoying, lazy, irritable, petty person in the community and nobody could understand why he was there as he wasn't interested in working or learning anything and made many other peoples life there far more difficult. One day some sort of incident happened and the man got so angry he stormed off promising never to return, while all the others rejoiced and celebrated that their source of irritation had gone. As soon as Gurdjieff heard about this he got up an immediately went to find the man in Paris to beg him to come back and it turned out Gurdjieff was paying him a salary to live with them and offered him double to return.

 

The negative manifestations of other people can cause a friction inside of you and that friction can provide the alchemical fire with which your inner impurities are revealed, then by sealing the alchemical container which is your body/mind by using the right sort of inner attention like steve f talks about you can transform your impurities into gold.

[manitou]

I guess it's impossible to see another person for who they really are until we have seen ourselves in our totality, otherwise we will project onto them according to our own perceptions, but then on the other hand they can also be our greatest teachers about ourselves because they can show us our shadow disowned parts of ourselves.

 

For shadow work other people are crucial, much of that shadow stuff cannot be dealt with very easily on the meditation cushion or in retreat because we lie to ourselves too easily. Essentially whenever you get a strong emotional reaction to other people it is very likely some of your shadow has been triggered, so the emotional reaction you get can be a trigger to take notice and examine your own judgements towards that person as whatever you are rejecting in the other person will also be something you reject in yourself. So in this respect the more annoying the person and difficult the situation the better.

 

There is a story if I can remember it correctly about a Russian man who lived with Gurdjieff in their teaching house or ashram in Paris after the Second World War. This man by all accounts was the most annoying, lazy, irritable, petty person in the community and nobody could understand why he was there as he wasn't interested in working or learning anything and made many other peoples life there far more difficult. One day some sort of incident happened and the man got so angry he stormed off promising never to return, while all the others rejoiced and celebrated that their source of irritation had gone. As soon as Gurdjieff heard about this he got up an immediately went to find the man in Paris to beg him to come back and it turned out Gurdjieff was paying him a salary to live with them and offered him double to return.

 

The negative manifestations of other people can cause a friction inside of you and that friction can provide the alchemical fire with which your inner impurities are revealed, then by sealing the alchemical container which is your body/mind by using the right sort of inner attention like steve f talks about you can transform your impurities into gold.

 

 

Plus 100!

[Birch]

"Essentially whenever you get a strong emotional reaction to other people it is very likely some of your shadow has been triggered, so the emotional reaction you get can be a trigger to take notice and examine your own judgements towards that person as whatever you are rejecting in the other person will also be something you reject in yourself. "

 

Oft-cited suggestion. I keep reading this one. I'm not convinced. What do you mean by "very likely"? And wasn't the Byron Katie thing about this being a hint as to what you need to give to yourself? Oh, I get confused with the duality thing, I preferred the other version of this which was related to approval-seeking. So is one a version of the other?

 

And as "shadow" gets "integrated" as in "no-longer repressed". What happens to "other people"?

[doc benway]

Yes, agreed....it is a long term process. And it seems to me that as things clear out of our insides there is more room for Love to move in. That is one of the Sage's treasures.

This

[manitou]

This

 

Simple but not easy.

[Jetsun]

"Essentially whenever you get a strong emotional reaction to other people it is very likely some of your shadow has been triggered, so the emotional reaction you get can be a trigger to take notice and examine your own judgements towards that person as whatever you are rejecting in the other person will also be something you reject in yourself. "

 

Oft-cited suggestion. I keep reading this one. I'm not convinced. What do you mean by "very likely"? And wasn't the Byron Katie thing about this being a hint as to what you need to give to yourself? Oh, I get confused with the duality thing, I preferred the other version of this which was related to approval-seeking. So is one a version of the other?

 

And as "shadow" gets "integrated" as in "no-longer repressed". What happens to "other people"?

 

I say "very likely" because I don't like to talk in absolutes but the thinking is that you only hate what you see in other people what you hate in yourself, so you will only have an extreme irrational emotional reaction to someone else if they trigger some disowned unconscious part of you. For example there are people on TV who I cant stand yet my friends really like them, I don't like them because they remind me of parts of myself I dislike, so my reaction is all to do with me and nothing to do with the person on tv. But if you remain unconscious of this process then you will always blame the other person for your reaction, they will always be the problem and when the problem is outside of you there is nothing you can do about it, you remain in the trap of blaming other people for all the wrong you see in the world and all your problems.

 

I think if you integrate your shadow then you will loose the majority of your negative judgements about other people, so you will see them more clearly for who they are without it being filtered through a lense of your own projections, whether it is possible to see them without any sort of filter at all i'm not sure