Taoist Philosophy - Chapter 114

[Marblehead]

The Sage Accepts Gentility

 

When the people don’t respect those in power,
Then what they greatly fear is about to arrive.
Rule a big country as you would fry small fish;
Let alone, or the fish will become paste
By constant turning about.
Don’t narrow the size of the places
In which the people live.
Don’t oppress them in their means of livelihood.
It’s simply because you do not oppress them
That they therefore will not be fed up.

Govern the people with love and consideration,
You will be able to avoid intervening!
Therefore the Sage knows himself
But doesn’t show himself;
He cherishes himself
But doesn’t value himself.
For this reason,
He rejects force and accepts gentility.


(Note: I could not find anything by Chuang Tzu that spoke to this concept. Again, Chuang Tzu didn't care much for government and therefore rarely spoke of the subject.)

Edited March 2, 2013 by Marblehead

[deci belle]

Words to live by nonetheless, Marblehead! Why did you choose this chapter at this particular time? Just a sequential thing?

Edited May 3, 2011 by deci belle

[aridus]

Who would kill, if they are ignorant of enemies?

Who would steal, if they are ignorant of material value?

Who would hate, if everyone was cherished?

Who would need governance, if not for the interests of meddlesome people?

[Nanashi]

I am curious-- does anyone have some examples of modern day sages? On a news show, I once heard Karl Rove referred to as a sage, which is a laugh.

 

But do you guys see any active sages-- in the Daoist sense-- running around the world today, or even in the circles of power? Seems like everyone is chasing Confucian success; are the true sages hiding in seclusion?

 

Also, how do you guys feel about the Lao-tzu saying a country's leadership shouldn't be turned over too often-- like frying a fish, it falls apart. Doesn't this clash with our western democratic idealism?

[aridus]

I am curious-- does anyone have some examples of modern day sages? On a news show, I once heard Karl Rove referred to as a sage, which is a laugh.

 

But do you guys see any active sages-- in the Daoist sense-- running around the world today, or even in the circles of power? Seems like everyone is chasing Confucian success; are the true sages hiding in seclusion?

 

Also, how do you guys feel about the Lao-tzu saying a country's leadership shouldn't be turned over too often-- like frying a fish, it falls apart. Doesn't this clash with our western democratic idealism?

I don't see it as saying that leadership shouldn't be "turned over". I see it as "excessive meddling creates problems." Or knowing when to just leave things alone. And yes, it does clash heavily.

[thelerner]

I am curious-- does anyone have some examples of modern day sages? On a news show, I once heard Karl Rove referred to as a sage, which is a laugh.

 

But do you guys see any active sages-- in the Daoist sense-- running around the world today, or even in the circles of power? Seems like everyone is chasing Confucian success; are the true sages hiding in seclusion?

 

Also, how do you guys feel about the Lao-tzu saying a country's leadership shouldn't be turned over too often-- like frying a fish, it falls apart. Doesn't this clash with our western democratic idealism?

 

Good question on who'd be considered a modern sage. I don't think John Stewart fits, but I'll name him anyway.

 

I agree with the frying fish statement. In a dozen organizations I've seen a new person come in, try to shake things up. Inevitably there good intentions create havoc and animosity. Too much, too fast. Change may be needed, but its best when it seems to come organically and not forced, thus the great leader is the one who seems to do nothing, but some how things get done.

[aridus]

Good question on who'd be considered a modern sage. I don't think John Stewart fits, but I'll name him anyway.

 

I agree with the frying fish statement. In a dozen organizations I've seen a new person come in, try to shake things up. Inevitably there good intentions create havoc and animosity. Too much, too fast. Change may be needed, but its best when it seems to come organically and not forced, thus the great leader is the one who seems to do nothing, but some how things get done.

Yeah. I think one problem is that we elect from people who 'throw their hat in the ring'. You'd think that we should already intuit that anyone who is motivated to step up already had some ideas and agendas in store, and therefore 'doing nothing' is probably the furthest thing from what they have in mind already.

 

We are rigged to put meddlers in office from the very start, which is why it keeps happening.

[Marblehead]

Words to live by nonetheless, Marblhead! Why did you choose this chapter at this particular time? Just a sequential thing?

 

I am presenting the Chapters in sequence. This was the next in line. Interesting though how valid it is today.

 

Chuang Tzu did speak to the concept but not as it relates to governments. His thoughts on the concept are presented in other chapters.

[Marblehead]

Who would kill, if they are ignorant of enemies?

Who would steal, if they are ignorant of material value?

Who would hate, if everyone was cherished?

Who would need governance, if not for the interests of meddlesome people?

 

Fair questions Aridus.

 

It is "we" who assign positives and negatives to the conditions in life. Dualities rule in the Manifest.

[Marblehead]

I am curious-- does anyone have some examples of modern day sages?

 

I consider Mother Teresa to have been one.

[Apech]

Rule a big country as you would fry small fish;

Let alone, or the fish will become paste

By constant turning about.

 

Funnily enough I've been BBQing sardines and this statement is so true - the more you mess the more they break up and become impossible to turn over - they become small pieces that fall into the fire. This is one of the things I most like about Taoism that it is based on some quite simple observations of reality - which are made profound by their interpretation. Taoists are not abstract thinkers but deal with a kind of concrete absolute. The great reflected in the small. Brilliant.

[Marblehead]

Funnily enough I've been BBQing sardines and this statement is so true - the more you mess the more they break up and become impossible to turn over - they become small pieces that fall into the fire. This is one of the things I most like about Taoism that it is based on some quite simple observations of reality - which are made profound by their interpretation. Taoists are not abstract thinkers but deal with a kind of concrete absolute. The great reflected in the small. Brilliant.

 

And that, Sir, is a post worthy of repeating.

[wingzero]

[Marblehead]

That is so true and reflect the state of America. But with chaos, order will arise from, I have lots of hope for the better.

 

Yes. We must remain optimistic else we will likely miss the opportunities for change for the better.

[deci belle]

[manitou]

I am curious-- does anyone have some examples of modern day sages? On a news show, I once heard Karl Rove referred to as a sage, which is a laugh.

 

 

Nobody wants to believe me on this, but I can see as clear as day that our president is a modern day sage. They don't get any smarter. They don't get any more self-deprecating. The sense of humor if fabulous. The sense of timing is fabulous. He rules a country as he would fry a small fish. He waits in the background and lets it happen; he acts when the time is appropriate.

 

He sees things before they happen. He has all the players in position before acting. He handles everything with a loving countenance, even the most spiteful and hateful people that go after him.

 

He has no policies in place, other than very general ones. Firm policies cut off all other possibilities. He is acting One Day At A Time. People who grumble about lack of 'policy' are missing the point. Policy is an inhibitor. There may have been room for staunch policy back in the 50's and 60's - but no more. There's just too much input coming in from all over the world, what with mass communication being what it is - that our new leaders are going to have to be Very Flexible.

 

He is not a ditherer, as some have said. He is practicing wu-wei on the country. but, due to the nature of the way he is doing it, by Not-Doing, he will not get credit for the things he is doing for years to come. It will come out later when the books are written. There are too many people around here (at least in this part of the country) who absolutely are willing to give this man NO credit whatsoever....but this is merely due to the white supremecist mindset of the area I live in. Aaargh!

Even my wonderful Apache partner feels like he's walking around with a target on his back most of the time.

Edited May 2, 2011 by manitou

[stan herman]

 

He is not a ditherer, as some have said. He is practicing wu-wei on the country. but, due to the nature of the way he is doing it, by Not-Doing, he will not get credit for the things he is doing for years to come.

 

It will come out later when the books are written.

 

 

Interesting observation. Whether the history books ever give credit to a leader's non-action is questionable. If what happens in the Middle East turns out to be less of a movement toward democracy and more a new arising of the 2,500 year conflict between East and West, Bush the younger may get credit for far-sightedness. The balance and harmony of Tao, in my view are not static or stable, but always in motion and always interpenetrating--and sometimes violent.