[TTC Study] Chapter 36 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 36

 

 

John Wu

 

What is in the end to be shrunken,

Begins by being first stretched out.

What is in the end to be weakened,

Begins by being first made strong.

What is in the end to be thrown down,

Begins by being first set on high.

What is in the end to be despoiled,

Begins by being first richly endowed.

Herein is the subtle wisdom of life:

The soft and weak overcomes the hard and strong.

Just as the fish must not leave the deeps,

So the ruler must not display his weapons.

 

 

English/Feng

 

That which shrinks

Must first expand.

That which fails

Must first be strong.

That which is cast down

Must first be raised.

Before receiving

There must be giving.

This is called perception of the nature of things.

Soft and weak overcome hard and strong.

Fish cannot leave deep waters,

And a country's weapons should not be displayed.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

If you wish to shrink it,

You must certainly stretch it.

If you wish to weaken it,

You must certainly strengthen it.

If you wish to desert it,

You must certainly work closely with it.

If you wish to snatch something from it,

You must certainly give something to it.

This is called the Subtle Light.

The submissive and weak conquer the strong.

Fish should not be taken out of the depths;

The state's sharp weapons should not be shown to the people.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[manitou]

for some reason, as I read all of the translations, it reminds me of the USA. How strong we used to be; back when things were on the upswing and the industrial revolution had us leading the way.

 

I think the devolution of the US is the Daoist way of rising and falling; we've already expanded and peaked, or so it seems. Now other countries are on the rise, and we are shrinking. China, India...

 

Or look at Mr. Trump. How very powerful this man has become, and yet the more you hear him talk on the air, the less respect anybody would have for him. His words and his attitudes are his own worst enemy. I think he's had his Dao peak and is deflating even as we speak - particularly after the Washington correspondents press dinner last night. He's probably going to come out swinging because the sense of humor fairy seems to have bypassed him early on.

 

It's like the bellows analogy at the beginning of the TTC. Like an archer with a bow; the archer pulls, the bow shrinks in length. Lin Yutang, in his translation, refers to this change in high and low dynamics as the Subtle Light.

 

There's one thing I can't quite get a grasp on in this chapter. All translators refer to leaving the fish in the deep water. I assume this refers to keeping one's weapons hidden. But it seems like there should be more to the analogy and I'm just not seeing it. I'm thinking this may be a cultural reference or idea that I'm unaware of. Can anyone see the deep fish thing any clearer than this?

[Marblehead]

 

There's one thing I can't quite get a grasp on in this chapter. All translators refer to leaving the fish in the deep water. I assume this refers to keeping one's weapons hidden. But it seems like there should be more to the analogy and I'm just not seeing it. I'm thinking this may be a cultural reference or idea that I'm unaware of. Can anyone see the deep fish thing any clearer than this?

 

I see this as peaking to the concept of staying hidden. The fish go deep to remain hidden from the fisher's hooks and nets, weapons are hidden so no one is tempted to use them. We keep our inner essence hidden from others so no one can disturb our peace and contentment. It's not that we present a false image, it is just that we don't show that part of us that we don't want disturbed.

 

Kinda' like the martial arts masters, they teach their students everything save one technique - that is their hidden treasure.

[manitou]

That makes eminent sense. If the weapons are hidden, the hand is played close to the chest. Nobody can take true stock of what you have.

[NonTien]

To make something smaller,

you need to appreciate its size.

To make something weaker,

you must recognize its strength.

To get rid of something,

you need to hold it tight.

To take something,

you must give it up entirely.

 

To put it another way:

Sensitivity and weakness

overcome unfeeling strength

[Marblehead]

Thanks Non Tien.

 

I like lines 2/3.

 

I have always had a problem with the use of "weak" in this line (Henricks):

 

The submissive and weak conquer the strong.

 

I have always felt that the word is a mis-translation and a more fitting word would be "flexible".

[manitou]

Thanks Non Tien.

 

I like lines 2/3.

 

I have always had a problem with the use of "weak" in this line (Henricks):

 

The submissive and weak conquer the strong.

 

I have always felt that the word is a mis-translation and a more fitting word would be "flexible".

 

 

I've always thought the translation should have been more toward the humble and non-arrogant.

[Marblehead]

I've always thought the translation should have been more toward the humble and non-arrogant.

 

Yes, I could easily accept that.

[Apech]

That makes eminent sense. If the weapons are hidden, the hand is played close to the chest. Nobody can take true stock of what you have.

 

I think this is the true meaning. Its like not showing your hand first - or the samurai thing of the one who strikes first will loose. So you keep your weapons hidden - because if your opponent knows what you've got then you are likely to be beaten. This is not about being cowardly or secretive (which would be one interpretation) but is just good sense. If you are the sage ruler surrounded by enemies then this is the right way to behave. You show only what you want to show and nothing more.

[Aaron]

I think this is the true meaning. Its like not showing your hand first - or the samurai thing of the one who strikes first will loose. So you keep your weapons hidden - because if your opponent knows what you've got then you are likely to be beaten. This is not about being cowardly or secretive (which would be one interpretation) but is just good sense. If you are the sage ruler surrounded by enemies then this is the right way to behave. You show only what you want to show and nothing more.

 

I was thinking something similar, it stemmed from Manitou's comment about the USA being strong at one time. It brought to mind Teddy Rosevelt's qoute, "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

 

What came to my mind is that the submissive and weak were hiding their weapons and waiting for the strong to turn around, then they were going to jump him.

 

Of course that's not what it means. What it's actually saying is that the submissive and weak win over the strong, because they are subtle and flexible, they can submit and by submitting they will not end up dieing. Or as someone else said, "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword."

 

Aaron

Edited May 5, 2011 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

I have seen it written a couple of times that Lao Tzu was the first philosopher of camouflage.

 

And Chuang Tzu mentioned a couple times about the concept of remaining hidden.

[stan herman]

Another interpretation:

 

 

36. Power is most secure when not displayed

Large egos are vulnerable to slight

Aggression is vulnerable to counter-attack

High status is vulnerable to failure.

 

 

Still, power is the flour of change

Egos provide its yeast

Aggression gives the heat for baking and

Status turns the oven on.

 

And so the Tao makes bread.

[Mr. T]

hey there...

 

interesting interpretation! i love it when things can be analogized to baking bread! i would imagine the thing you keep secret would be the recipe?

 

see ya...

[Marblehead]

hey there...

 

interesting interpretation! i love it when things can be analogized to baking bread! i would imagine the thing you keep secret would be the recipe?

 

see ya...

 

Yeah Stan,

 

Nice interpretation.

 

Yes, I think, share the bread but keep the recipe secret.

[dawei]

I think this is the true meaning. Its like not showing your hand first - or the samurai thing of the one who strikes first will loose. So you keep your weapons hidden - because if your opponent knows what you've got then you are likely to be beaten. This is not about being cowardly or secretive (which would be one interpretation) but is just good sense. If you are the sage ruler surrounded by enemies then this is the right way to behave. You show only what you want to show and nothing more.

I agree in general and there is more talk about enemies in Chapter 31. I also see the passage as having application to the common people [under the ruler]. A heavy fisted ruler is despised but people left alone are more natural (chapter 32) and hardly know who is their ruler (chapter 17); so don't threaten them with death (chapter 74).

 

It is interesting how the two lines of a fish and weapons are juxtaposed. But it seems a good teaching point from nature: Just as fish are naturally inclined to remain in deep water so weapons should remain out of sight.

[Procurator]

I agree in general and there is more talk about enemies in Chapter 31. I also see the passage as having application to the common people [under the ruler]. A heavy fisted ruler is despised but people left alone are more natural (chapter 32) and hardly know who is their ruler (chapter 17); so don't threaten them with death (chapter 74).

 

It is interesting how the two lines of a fish and weapons are juxtaposed. But it seems a good teaching point from nature: Just as fish are naturally inclined to remain in deep water so weapons should remain out of sight.

as per usual there is nothing about weapons in this para

 

Legge, the first translator says nothing about weapons.

 

魚不可脫於淵，國之利器不可以示人。

Dao De Jing:

(Minimising the light)

g.

Fishes should not be taken from the deep; instruments for the profit of a state should not be shown to the people

利器 this means talented officials not weapons.

[dawei]

as per usual there is nothing about weapons in this para

 

Legge, the first translator says nothing about weapons.

 

 

利器 this means talented officials not weapons.

That makes sense to me. The first time I tried to translate this I wrote it down as "useful instruments" as related to the court/ruler; the officials are instruments of the court.

[ChiDragon]

Well, there is a difference between translation and interpretation. It all depends on what the individual wants to do. One can translate then interpret with annotation or just go ahead to translate the direct meaning within context. Either way, there will be confusion and argument. To avoid confusion, I would like to translate the classic text as close as possible, so nothing gets lost. Then, I go from there with the interpretation and annotation.

Edited June 11, 2011 by ChiDragon