Mo Pai and Immortality

[Wells]

Traditional daoist texts we know of (that may mostly be leaked from the Wu Liu Pai sect) like "taoist yoga" or the books by Eva wong state that you have to create an immortal body/fetus/baby/whatever, transport it out of your body and then transfer your consciousness into it to become immortal. The texts about "The six yogas of Naropa"(tummo) state that you have to create the "illusory body" to become immortal. So your normal human energy body that contains the meridians, the dantians and so on that you already possess will cease eventually.

 

So why does John Chang state that simply condensing enough (Yang) Chi to a ball in your dantian is enough to make you immortal and preserving your personality after death...what should mean that your normal energy body will last forever with this "duracell" battery. So simply "not running out of juice" is already enough?

 

 

Edit: A quote from neigong.it in the actual John Chang thread:

The Taoist practice is based on two fundamental principles of the pre-Heaven and post-Heaven.

• the principle of the pre-Heaven that Xian Tian in China, has set itself the objective of developing the power of the shen, Yang Shen with the development of the fetus and the exit from the immortal physical body.

• the principle of post-Heaven Hou Tian, ​​belongs to the school of thunder and lightning, She Shan Dao in Chinese, as before, the objective of achieving enlightenment and immortality,' but through the consolidation of Dan and development of the Yin-Yang Gong. the fusion of Yin Qi and Yang Qi.

 

 

P.S.: Spare my the New Age pieces of wisdom, please!

P.P.S.: It's very crucial for me to come to a conclusion in this question. So answers from people who know more about that matter than me would be very appreciated!

Edited May 1, 2011 by Dorian Black

[fizix]

So why does John Chang state that simply condensing enough (Yang) Chi to a ball in your dantian is enough to make you immortal and preserving your personality after death...what should mean that your normal energy body will last forever with this "duracell" battery. So simply "not running out of juice" is already enough?

Well, simply condensing enough yang chi to a ball in your dantian isn't enough alone to preserve personality after death...according to the Mo Pai theory, one has to fuse the yin (perineum) and yang (dan tian) energies together in order to achieve 'immortality'... as yin is the essence of infinity while yang is the essence of personality, so combining them into non-duality is the key to obtaining 'infinite personality'/immortality.

[gendao]

Good question. Apparently, there are 2 main schools of neidan. One is the "pre-Heaven sanhua juding" school and the other is the "post-Heaven yinyang" school.

 

Most of us are familiar with the former school's theory of refining jing to qi to shen to emptiness and ultimately developing an "immortal" yang shen jalus. This approach includes Quanzhen jia and Taoist Yoga's Wu-Liu pai.

 

Assumedly, the "post-Heaven" school likely refers to "thunder path" sects such as Mo pai, Guang Hua pai, etc. known for developing an electrogenesis-like ability, amongst others. While I'm sure it is similar in many ways, it also differed enough that it could not simply be fully absorbed into the "pre-Heaven" school.

With the exception of the Yin-Yang branch (Yinyang pai), which maintained its own line of transmission, the Pure Cultivation branch (Qingxiu pai) was not divided into Northern and Southern branches.

 

the Pure Cultivation branch (Qingxiu pai) of Neidan. The views of the Yin-Yang branch (Yinyang pai) are different. Chen Zhixu, who merged the Southern and Northern lineages of Quanzhen, was an exponent of the Yin-Yang branch, but also gave great importance to the Pure Cultivation branch. - Wang Mu, Foundations of Internal Alchemy, p92 & 95

Of course, much of this is highly speculative on my part, though... Edited May 1, 2011 by vortex

[Dagon]

Good question. Apparently, there are 2 main schools of neidan. One is the "pre-Heaven sanhua juding" school and the other is the "post-Heaven yinyang" school.

 

Most of us are familiar with the former school's theory of refining jing to qi to shen to emptiness and ultimately developing an "immortal" yang shen jalus. This approach includes Quanzhen jia and Taoist Yoga's Wu-Liu pai.

 

Assumedly, the "post-Heaven" school likely refers to "thunder path" sects such as Mo pai, Guang Hua pai, etc. known for developing an electrogenesis-like ability, amongst others. While I'm sure it is similar in many ways, it also differed enough that it could not simply be fully absorbed into the "pre-Heaven" school.Of course, much of this is highly speculative on my part, though...

 

Would the "pre-Heaven sanhua juding" be like awakening and energy accumulation?

[Wells]

Well, simply condensing enough yang chi to a ball in your dantian isn't enough alone to preserve personality after death...according to the Mo Pai theory, one has to fuse the yin (perineum) and yang (dan tian) energies together in order to achieve 'immortality'... as yin is the essence of infinity while yang is the essence of personality, so combining them into non-duality is the key to obtaining 'infinite personality'/immortality.

Great answer! But I thought the Yin and Yang Chi are simply compressed together into dantian in the end and stay as Taichi = Yin + Yang and they don't mix to Wu/Ling/One Chi (without polarity). Kosta showed John Chang the simple circle (Wu Chi) symbol and John Chang stated that in Mo Pai you always stay at Yin/Yang (Tai Chi). BTW, I wonder if in Mo Pai you suck Chi from the outside into your dantian, because they say no word about that in the books. I mean how can you suck Chi into your system by simply concentrating on dantian? It is more likely that you only lead chi from the rest of your body into dantian by only concentrating there....what could reduce your Wei Chi and make you sick! Or Kosta told only half the story about archieving level 1.

[fizix]

Great answer! But I thought the Yin and Yang Chi are simply compressed together into dantian in the end and stay as Taichi = Yin + Yang and they don't mix to Wu/Ling/One Chi (without polarity). Kosta showed John Chang the simple circle (Wu Chi) symbol and John Chang stated that in Mo Pai you always stay at Yin/Yang (Tai Chi). BTW, I wonder if in Mo Pai you suck Chi from the outside into your dantian, because they say no word about that in the books. I mean how can you suck Chi into your system by simply concentrating on dantian? It is more likely that you only lead chi from the rest of your body into dantian by only concentrating there....what could reduce your Wei Chi and make you sick! Or Kosta told only half the story about archieving level 1.

Kostas book about the Mo Pai is highly inaccurate, embellished... though some truth is there. He was kicked out of the school by Chang for a reason. Chi is built in the body from the sky (yang chi in air) and earth (yin chi)... Mo Pai cultivates yin chi which separates it from chi kung, making it nei kung/nei dan/nai gong... fusion of these two energies is what supposedly makes one immortal and grants all the powers.

[Wells]

Good question. Apparently, there are 2 main schools of neidan. One is the "pre-Heaven sanhua juding" school and the other is the "post-Heaven yinyang" school.

 

Most of us are familiar with the former school's theory of refining jing to qi to shen to emptiness and ultimately developing an "immortal" yang shen jalus. This approach includes Quanzhen jia and Taoist Yoga's Wu-Liu pai.

 

Assumedly, the "post-Heaven" school likely refers to "thunder path" sects such as Mo pai, Guang Hua pai, etc. known for developing an electrogenesis-like ability, amongst others. While I'm sure it is similar in many ways, it also differed enough that it could not simply be fully absorbed into the "pre-Heaven" school.Of course, much of this is highly speculative on my part, though...

Wow, very interesting! But what I don't understand is why the first one is called "pre-heaven". Any clue? I mean, the "vitality" in your body with that you work, is also post-heaven, is it not? Or is "vitality" the remaining pre-heaven/Yuan Jing in your kidneys?

BTW, I just ordered the book from Wang Mu over amazon, thanks for the hint!

[Wells]

Kostas book about the Mo Pai is highly inaccurate, embellished... though some truth is there. He was kicked out of the school by Chang for a reason. Chi is built in the body from the sky (yang chi in air) and earth (yin chi)... Mo Pai cultivates yin chi which separates it from chi kung, making it nei kung/nei dan/nai gong... fusion of these two energies is what supposedly makes one immortal and grants all the powers.

I didn't know that facts, thanks! Do you know how you bring the Yin- and Yang Chi into your body in Mo Pai? I guess Yin Chi by breathing in through Huyin or the feet and Yang Chi by breathing in through bahui (crownpoint of head)?

And why can't you simply breath in primordial Wu/Ling/One Chi (the "godly" Chi that splits or transforms into Yin- and Yang Chi)and condense it in dantian?

Would be the easier way.

Waysun Liao claims in "Nine Nights with the Taoist Master" that the Chi that you can breath in through the pores from around you IS in fact the "unused" One Chi and therefore it can replenish your own remaining One Chi. He claims that you have to bring it in through the pores and then condense it into the spine to "replenish" your One Chi. Also, he claims that your "TE" in in fact a little piece of TAO and some kind of matrix that organizes your development and existence and that it resides in the center of dantian. This TE works with One Chi, changes it to Yin Chi to nourish your body from the inside and to Yang Chi to protect your body on the outside. When your One Chi burns out, you loose contact with your TE, you decline, decay and cease and then the TE goes on to create the next personality or so.

So, when you replenish your One Chi so it doesn't burn out, you can always hold on to your TE, never burn out as a personality.

 

Well, matter of fact is, in Waysun Liao's Nei Gong part of his Temple Style Tai Chi System, that I have through Gary Clyman, you ALSO breath in Chi through your Bahui and through your Huyin (supposedly Heaven- and Earth Chi) in one exercise and mix them ALL AT ONCE into your dantian. Seems much more secure then the Mo Pai method to me...

[Wells]

Additional, Liao says in his newest book "Tao - the way of God" that the "highest achievement" (even higher than only replenishing your One Chi and being able to hold always on your TE...but what is the premise for the "highest achievement") is the following:

But the highest level some of those old masters achieved is what they called "daytime ascending".They could raise their energy so high that they could dissolve even their bodies into pure energy and just vanish and turn into a saint.

Waysun Liao, Tao: the Way of God s.178

Well, even though I have supposedly the whole Nei Gong part of Temple Style Taichi, I have no clue what he means by "raise your energy so high".

Any ideas...?

 

Edit: This seems exactly like the achievement through "The Six Yogas Of Naropa" (tummo), when you suck all your energies into the "immortal drop" in the heart, what also happens when you die, but when you do it consciously, you raise in an immortal "illusory body" made of your energies. Your material body dissolves into light and only hair and nails remain.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

Also, concerning Kosta's claims and other sources about Mo Pai and other "Thunderpath" schools/sects: According to our TTB member forestofsouls' first hand experience with Waysun Liao, refering to HERE:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/2126-actual-manifestation-of-chi/page__p__19556__hl__Waysun%20Liao__fromsearch__1entry19556

What we did was we all gathered in a circle. Master Liao had us put our hands out in the tai chi ball stance, which is standing shoulder width apart, with our palms facing one another, perpendicular to the floor. Sort of like holding a beach ball in front of you. He placed his hands around my hands, without touching. Then he said, let me know when you feel something.

 

Mind you, I was a chi skeptic at this time. I could feel vague light buzzings, but nothing substantial.

 

What I did was try to keep an open, empty mind and a relaxed body. I was curious, but quite sceptical. What happened was it felt like suddenly I was hooked up to a power generator. When I was younger, I once grabbed a refrigerator that wasn't fully grounded, and was mildly electocuted. It was similar, but it felt good. It started out vague, then I felt a lot of pressure as though I was submerged under water. I said nothing, and the feelings got very strong. Then the pressure gave way and it felt like liquid electicity was flowing throughout my body, and it felt as real and vivid as an oak table. I also felt my lower dan tien and upper dan tien swelling and opening, and it was ecstatic. It also felt like there was a fine electrical wire connecting the two dan tiens. I felt giddy and high, and couldn't stop smiling. It also felt there was an actual ball between my hands.

 

The main thought I had was "Oh my God I can't beleive this is real!"

 

Master Liao said that the object was to cultivate oneself so that one could feel that way without a master "charging you up".

Well, according to Kosta's claims and other sources about Mo Pai and other "Thunderpath" schools/sects Waysun Liao shouldn't be able to

1) generate an electric kind of Chi

and

2) transfer it through the air without touching,

because Waysun Liao's system doesn't include the oh so difficult YinYangGong!!! (...at least not as a topic worth to mention! They suck in Heaven- and Earth Chi in one exercise and condense them into dantian, as I said. That's all.)

Any opinions?

 

Ha, I already love this thread, the demanding topic, the controversy, the revelations...I mean, that's the central topic in Daoism: How to achieve immortality!

So please: Keep the great comments coming!!

Edited May 1, 2011 by Dorian Black

[effilang]

Dorian, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but i just wanted to say this is my favorite thread of all time.

Edited May 1, 2011 by effilang

[gendao]

^^ Great questions and very interesting point. Unfortunately, I don't have any answers and what I posted before was a lot of open conjecture. So, I'd take it with a shakerful of salt, lol..

 

Thing is though, what neidan systems did Waysun Liao really learn? What abilities does he really possess and what were they all actually derived from? Do we know?

He was trained in a Daoist temple by a teacher who no one seems to know, of course that can add to the mystique. He was also trained by another wandering Daoist. He came to the US in his early 20's. He is super good.

I do have a friend who studied some Temple Tai Chi decades ago and claimed he saw his teacher (not sure who) apparently walk through a wall. Edited May 1, 2011 by vortex

[Wells]

Dorian, I'mma let you finish, but i just wanted to say this is my favorite thread of all time.

Thank you, you're welcome!

[Wells]

^^ Great questions and very interesting point. Unfortunately, I don't have any answers and what I posted before was a lot of open conjecture. So, I'd take it with a shakerful of salt, lol..

Thing is though, what neidan systems did Waysun Liao really learn? What abilities does he really possess and what were they all actually derived from? Do we know?

Good question! Maybe "Temple Style Taichi" and it's Nei Gong system are his own creation, derived from several sources. In another thread, I posted Bruce Frantzis' claim that Liao's martial art power aka. Jing comes from "Fukian White Crane" and that Frantzis achieved Jing "vibration power" also in a short time after Liao's supervision. Well, I don't know if the story is true, but whatever Frantzis' achieved under Liao as a "White Crane" vibration power, with that he could "break bones left and right" from his opponents, it's not the TRUE power that Liao, Chang and others possess! I will prove that in my next comment!

I do have a friend who studied some Temple Tai Chi decades ago and claimed he saw his teacher (not sure who) apparently walk through a wall.

HOLY SH*T!!!! That's a heavy one!!! Is this friend of you a believable witness? Would he post his testimony here? Man, that would be great!

[effilang]

Does anyone understand by what order the Yin Qi in these systems is stored at the Hui Yin?

 

Is there an energy center there in Taoism that i don't know about.

I know it means the meeting point/place of Yin, but thats because the Yin channels pass through there, not because there is a center?

 

So what is it, a chakra?

 

Surely it must be of a considerable capacity there to be able to merge with the Yang Qi in the LTT at least in equal proportions to create the Tai Ji.

 

Is it possible that the reason that stage is potentially fatal is because too much unequal quantities of Yin and Yang are fused?

 

How does one even know when both centers are charged adequately to attempt a fusion.

 

Since the Yang Qi passes through the Hui Yin on the way up the back during the laying of the foundation, why doesn't it fuse automatically when it moves past the perineum O_o

Edited May 2, 2011 by effilang

[gendao]

Good question! Maybe "Temple Style Taichi" and it's Nei Gong system are his own creation, derived from several sources. In another thread, I posted Bruce Frantzis' claim that Liao's martial art power aka. Jing comes from "Fukian White Crane" and that Frantzis achieved Jing "vibration power" also in a short time after Liao's supervision. Well, I don't know if the story is true, but whatever Frantzis' achieved under Liao as a "White Crane" vibration power, with that he could "break bones left and right" from his opponents, it's not the TRUE power that Liao, Chang and others possess! I will prove that in my next comment!

 

HOLY SH*T!!!! That's a heavy one!!! Is this friend of you a believable witness? Would he post his testimony here? Man, that would be great!

I might ask him again about it later..

 

However, he wasn't even sure if it was legit at the time, as I think some smoke may have also been involved. And again, I'm also not sure who exactly his teacher was..

 

I guess my point though is that if it were legit, then Waysun probably had some undefined neidan training that was really the basis of his skills, not just Taijiquan. And so I don't know which school of neidan he really belongs to (if that's true)?

Edited May 2, 2011 by vortex

[templetao]

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Edited May 30, 2011 by templetao

[templetao]

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Edited May 30, 2011 by templetao

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[gendao]

Check it and find out more about the temple style http://www.sevensunstaichi.org/temple-tai-chi.html

 

As ar as this comvo goes i can tell you that in the beginning level of temple style that you fill your self with yang chi from the sky(heaven) and you compress it and then purify it. Doing this will awaken the TE.

 

P.S theres a yin and yang to condensing breathing too your suppose to do it twice a day once during the day for the yang chi from the sun and once at night for the yin from the moon. At one point the sun and moon will take over while doing this and you will be breathing with the sun and moon and begin to radiate...

 

The temple style works heavily with yin and yang chi and internal power. At a certain point in the school you will move on from neikung and move into higher work of taogung and start working with the tao itself....

 

The taichitao center in chicago is the american version of the real taichitao temple in china so its just not a regular school of taichi its a tao temple in america.

 

The first pic i posted is the actual temple form the temple style but the actual temple is your body get it temple style=neikung. more to come.

Interesting. Could you perhaps address effilang's questions about how yin & yang qi flow through the various yin & yang meridians in the body and how they can be distinguished from one another feeling-wise? I've been wondering this myself too?

 

Also, sounds like Waysun subscribes more to the "pre-Heaven" school of neidan.

Begin from refining Jing; when the Jing is stabilized, refine the Qi; when the Qi is settled, refine the Shen; when the Shen has coagulated, return to Emptiness. By being empty an then again empty, Dao and Te will be together. - Foundations of Internal Alchemy, p 97

Edited May 2, 2011 by vortex

[Wells]

excursion:

How to identify TRUE internal power (Neijing) in action to identify a true master (of YinYangGong)?

How can we detect if the power of someone like John Chang, Gary Clyman, Sifu Jiang or others is REAL or FAKE?

Well, there is a CLUE! I identified it already on my own some time ago, but because of this thread and because I discovered today an article of a taichi master who affirmed what I catched already for myself.

So stay tuned:

 

http://www.taichisociety.org/neijin.html

Nei Jin, which literally means internal power, is the culmination and unification of refined Chi and cosmic Chi in the body that one strives to accomplish in the Internal Practice. Nei Jin is a precious and supreme power that produces not only excellent well-being but also superior Tai Chi performance.

When Nei Jin is present during Tai Chi practice, it vibrates in the body.

Nei Jin can be attained only from comprehensive Internal Work ( Internal Exercise ):

Internal Work training is done primarily through Tai Chi forms and through meditation Qigong, eventually opening the door into the realm of the inner world. With internal practice, movement begins from deep inside the body and works outward.

Jin dissipates rapidly after sexual intercourse,

Thus, Nei Jin is like building wealth - it can take decades, even generations, to become very rich but only days to lose it all at a gambling table.

(Yeah, but Bruce Frantzis got it in three month or so! Yeah, right! )

 

And now here is the big one, the CLUE:

When one has accomplished Nei Jin at its highest level there can be some unusual phenomena. Nei Jin reveals itself spontaneously by, for example, tremendously vibrating the fingers while the rest of the body is still. One could be sitting still in a chair doing nothing ( not in meditation ), and all of a sudden see one's fingers moving, as has happened to this author. It is beyond comprehension; the author names it Nei Jin's move because it happens without input from the mind. It is as though the Nei Jin talks to you; it occurs only when a very high Nei Jin has been achieved. Witnesses have expressed amazement because the movement of the fingers looks very different to movement directed by the mind. This phenomenon is unheard of the world over. Note that Chi is often expressed through the fingers, as seen in masterpieces of calligraphy, automatic writing, and other arts. While strong Chi in some Tai Chi practitioners can make the fingers move spontaneously, it is only while doing Tai Chi and it is only a shiver, whereas with Nei Jin the fingers move considerably even when the rest of the body is still. Most importantly Nei Jin can be used for healing oneself or others, often with excellent results. The higher the Nei Jin one possesses the more potent the healing power one possesses. When one's life has Nei Jin one never likes to live a life without it. Also, Nei Jin enhances psychic powers.

So, that's it: Neijin(g) or internal power when used leads to vibrations that don't look like they could be reproduced by conscious muscle action or willed shaking! When emitted from the hands, the hands tremble and shake in that abnormal way!

 

Let's see:

That's the White Crane vibration that Frantzis learned supposedly from Liao! Obviously it's FAKE! It's what Grand Master Kellen Chia calls "Tai Chi Jin"...only body mechanics! No Neijing here! Lol, Westerner Frantzis was tricked by the asian guy Liao with the "westerner and outdoor student" version of Jing (= "Tai Chi Jin"), if you ask me! No way he could have achieved Neijing in three month or so! And BTW, no wonder people hurt themselves (as Frantzis claimed) when dithering around like that!

 

Let's see this guy:

Watch closely 2:53 what the american guy says:"His hand trembles when he does that!"

IMO: Master Shu is TRUE!

 

Our great role model John Chang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvtQXliHxdc

Watch closely 2:06: TRUE!!! (of course!)

 

What about contoversial Gary J. Clyman? True or fake? What do you think?

http://vimeo.com/6635226

(the URL didn't work, had to insert the link!)

Yea, it's blurred, but watch very closely 6:57 - 6:59, maybe several times until you get it, especially his left hand!

Gary is TRUE!!! and has real Neijing!

 

OK, last but not least: Shifu Jiang:

Watch (in HD!) around 1:02 in the first and 0:35 - 0:43 in the second vid. Hmmm...don't know about the first vid, the little shaking could be caused through muscular tension. Don't looks like Neijing-vibration to me! And in the second vid, there was definitely no shaking at all. And because I guess that burning human flesh needs a more than a little bit Neijing (remember John Changs extreme vibrating arm when burning the newspaper....well, make your own conclusion! I would rather say FAKE!!!

 

Interesting, wasn't it?

AND: I would conclude that John Chang's power is basically the same NEIJING as every internal MA master as Waysun Liao or Gary Clyman has! Maybe he has more juice in his dantian, maybe Waysun Liao has more, who knows, but it's the same stuff!

 

Your opinions, please!

Edited May 2, 2011 by Dorian Black

[templetao]

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[Wells]

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Edited June 9, 2011 by Dorian Black

[templetao]

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[Wells]

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Edited June 9, 2011 by Dorian Black