Contemplate to find Enlightenment

[ShaktiMama]

"The nothingness of the center creates the somethingness of the doughnut."- Scott Livengood

[C T]

:lol:

 

Superb! Just so appropriate...

 

Fits right in to what i always ask - what makes a donut a donut?

 

 

 

Thank you!!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

:lol:

 

Superb! Just so appropriate...

 

Fits right in to what i always ask - what makes a donut a donut?

 

 

 

Thank you!!

 

Um, grease and sugar and carbohydrate?

[Non]

"The nothingness of the center creates the somethingness of the doughnut."- Scott Livengood

 

Exactly. That's why I don't quite understand "clearing the mind".

 

Clearing the mind is actually: focusing on one thing at a time. On one stream. That's not empty because there's one thing. That's the "resting"

 

I want to learn emptiness meditation. Mahamudracenter.org is good for that.

 

Though I'm having trobule with the first exercise: just how to disregard past and future thoughts when I don't even notice whenever I go into them? Especially when they are urgent?

 

How can I clear my thoughts then, when to clear thought requires the thought of clearing?

[manitou]

:lol:

 

Fits right in to what i always ask - what makes a donut a donut?

 

 

 

 

 

The hole.

[Aaron]

"The nothingness of the center creates the somethingness of the doughnut."- Scott Livengood

 

Hello Shaktimama,

 

I understand your point and it was funny, but my question is this, can we have the nothingness without the something that surrounds it? The nothingness, the void from which all things come, is dependent on all things that come from it (imo). Nothingness and somethingness are both inter-dependent, they are not separate experiences, but rather different ends of the same experience. With that being said, it is fine to understand that the nothingness creates something, but it also essential to understand that the somethingness is required for us to be able to experience the nothingness.

 

So let me clarify what I was talking about when I said contemplation is necessary to find enlightenment. There is this paradox that occurs within Zen teaching, the idea that in order for one to cease thinking, one must first think. It is only by exhausting all possibilities that some can give up those possibilities and move on. For some it's not so hard, they're not so attached to this world, they can let things go easier and submit to their practice. For me, it took a great deal of contemplation before I understood it was more than just contemplation. For me it took a great deal of introspection to understand the true nature of my ego and the constructs that were created by social conditioning. It was only through this introspection that I was able to grasp the slightest glimmer of my original nature.

 

I think the problem that is arising is that we are assuming that there is one definition for the word enlightenment, rather than there being numerous definitions. It stems from this desire to say, "my ideas are better/truer/purer than yours." Perhaps what we need to do is accept that other people can have different ideas and rather than say, "you're wrong!" We could say, "well I appreciate your ideas, would you like to hear what I think?" If we can approach it from this angle, then my idea of enlightenment doesn't have to mean the same thing as yours. In the same way we can talk about this topic without feeling the need to call others out or make comments that are intended to diminish others.

 

Well that's all I have to say.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Also I agree, you can tell a lot by how someone acts, rather than what they say.

[Otis]

"The nothingness of the center creates the somethingness of the doughnut."- Scott Livengood[/size]

Unless, of course, it's Bavarian Cream.

[Otis]

I think the problem that is arising is that we are assuming that there is one definition for the word enlightenment, rather than there being numerous definitions. It stems from this desire to say, "my ideas are better/truer/purer than yours." Perhaps what we need to do is accept that other people can have different ideas and rather than say, "you're wrong!" We could say, "well I appreciate your ideas, would you like to hear what I think?" If we can approach it from this angle, then my idea of enlightenment doesn't have to mean the same thing as yours. In the same way we can talk about this topic without feeling the need to call others out or make comments that are intended to diminish others.

I agree. There's certainly no point (especially on a discussion board) for anyone to declare: "my enlightenment is bigger than yours".

 

I mean, really, based on what ... ?

 

Kinda makes the whole concept of enlightenment (as an attainment) seem silly, if two people can have two different enlightenments.

 

Maybe we should drop the measuring sticks, and just say: "this is what has worked for me, thus far" and "this is what seems true to me, right now." Seems a lot more honest, and avoids all the contaminating self-description and potential traps that come with "I've arrived".

Edited May 3, 2011 by Otis

[ShaktiMama]

Hello Shaktimama,

 

I understand your point and it was funny, but my question is this, can we have the nothingness without the something that surrounds it? The nothingness, the void from which all things come, is dependent on all things that come from it (imo). Nothingness and somethingness are both inter-dependent, they are not separate experiences, but rather different ends of the same experience. With that being said, it is fine to understand that the nothingness creates something, but it also essential to understand that the somethingness is required for us to be able to experience the nothingness.

 

So let me clarify what I was talking about when I said contemplation is necessary to find enlightenment. There is this paradox that occurs within Zen teaching, the idea that in order for one to cease thinking, one must first think. It is only by exhausting all possibilities that some can give up those possibilities and move on. For some it's not so hard, they're not so attached to this world, they can let things go easier and submit to their practice. For me, it took a great deal of contemplation before I understood it was more than just contemplation. For me it took a great deal of introspection to understand the true nature of my ego and the constructs that were created by social conditioning. It was only through this introspection that I was able to grasp the slightest glimmer of my original nature.

 

I think the problem that is arising is that we are assuming that there is one definition for the word enlightenment, rather than there being numerous definitions. It stems from this desire to say, "my ideas are better/truer/purer than yours." Perhaps what we need to do is accept that other people can have different ideas and rather than say, "you're wrong!" We could say, "well I appreciate your ideas, would you like to hear what I think?" If we can approach it from this angle, then my idea of enlightenment doesn't have to mean the same thing as yours. In the same way we can talk about this topic without feeling the need to call others out or make comments that are intended to diminish others.

 

Well that's all I have to say.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Also I agree, you can tell a lot by how someone acts, rather than what they say.

 

 

so true. today, so busy busy busy, I will post Maslow's characteristics of a self actualized (enlightened?) person sometime later for an alternative perspective.

 

I find describing or fully knowing the qualities is like nailing jello to the wall. A bit difficult. It might be easier to describe what is not than what is so. Kinda like describing the Tao.

[ShaktiMama]

I agree. There's certainly no point (especially on a discussion board) for anyone to declare: "my enlightenment is bigger than yours".

 

I mean, really, based on what ... ?

 

Kinda makes the whole concept of enlightenment (as an attainment) seem silly, if two people can have two different enlightenments.

 

Maybe we should drop the measuring sticks, and just say: "this is what has worked for me, thus far" and "this is what seems true to me, right now." Seems a lot more honest, and avoids all the contaminating self-description and potential traps that come with "I've arrived".

 

when people drop the need for having or wanting a measuring stick that is a significant effect indeed.

[ShaktiMama]

Um, grease and sugar and carbohydrate?

so i know how to make vegan, baked, non fat, no sugar, gluten free donuts. Interested? When is a donut not a donut? and it turned out pretty tasty if i must say but it takes a little adaptation in desire to appreciate.

 

s

[ShaktiMama]

The hole.

 

ahhh...the structure makes it a donut....

[gendao]

There is this paradox that occurs within Zen teaching, the idea that in order for one to cease thinking, one must first think.

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you, but when does Zen tell you to think?

 

A lot of Zen schools have you just go through the motions of performing mundane tasks repetitively. Do mindless things "mindfully" (with the focus on the task, not yourself). Where zoning out is like being in the zone. Engage the mind with a huatou (before thought) to disengage from the mind. The whole point of these various exercises being to lose yourself in the moment/act to induce an "out-of-self experience" of nonduality.

 

There's no thinking required in Zen. In fact, the whole school aims at discouraging it in favor of wordless transmission and direct experience..

Edited May 3, 2011 by vortex

[Soar]

I want to learn emptiness meditation. Mahamudracenter.org is good for that.

http://www.mahamudracenter.org/MMCMemberMeditationGuide.htm#_Toc420995624,'>http://www.mahamudracenter.org/MMCMemberMeditationGuide.htm#_Toc420995624, you are using this?, thats a really nice guide.

 

 

Though I'm having trobule with the first exercise: just how to disregard past and future thoughts when I don't even notice whenever I go into them?

So you noticed that you didn't notice? That is still noticing, its normal not to notice straight away, just whenever you do let them go. Also, maybe its because your practice is too lax or sleepy. But, perhaps I don't understand your question?

 

 

 

How can I clear my thoughts then, when to clear thought requires the thought of clearing?

The (1) Joyful Resting Meditation wasn't phrased like this. It didn't say to try to clear thoughts, it said not to follow thoughts, and "Just sit and relax in your own clarity."

 

Basically it sounds like you are trying not to have any thoughts and see this as the goal? but..

 

"When the mind vividly, calmly, and unceasingly perceives forms, sounds, feelings, tastes, smells, thoughts, without anxiety or tension, then resting mind (shamatha or shinay) has been realized." http://www.mahamudracenter.org/MMCMemberMeditationGuide.htm#_Toc420995624

Edited May 3, 2011 by Soar

[C T]

The hole.

Really? Just that?

[manitou]

Really? Just that?

 

Yes, if you look at function. The emptiness is the function of the cup. The hole is the function of the donut, if indeed you wish to twirl it around and fling it.

 

Sorry, couldn't help it.

[C T]

http://www.mahamudracenter.org/MMCMemberMeditationGuide.htm#_Toc420995624,'>http://www.mahamudracenter.org/MMCMemberMeditationGuide.htm#_Toc420995624, you are using this?, thats a really nice guide.

 

 

 

So you noticed that you didn't notice? That is still noticing, its normal not to notice straight away, just whenever you do let them go. Also, maybe its because your practice is too lax or sleepy. But, perhaps I don't understand your question?

 

 

 

 

The (1) Joyful Resting Meditation wasn't phrased like this. It didn't say to try to clear thoughts, it said not to follow thoughts, and "Just sit and relax in your own clarity."

 

Basically it sounds like you are trying not to have any thoughts and see this as the goal? but..

 

"When the mind vividly, calmly, and unceasingly perceives forms, sounds, feelings, tastes, smells, thoughts, without anxiety or tension, then resting mind (shamatha or shinay) has been realized." http://www.mahamudracenter.org/MMCMemberMeditationGuide.htm#_Toc420995624

In Mahamudra, when the path arouses a desire to seek for freedom, enough to motivate the seeker to follow the path with vigor and determination, there will be experienced the fruits of 'realization'. Going even further and deeper, the path vanishes. As it does, even the gross and subtle attachments to a 'self who realizes', or a mind which clarifies, is liberated into the primordial essence, returning to union of form and emptiness. There is vividness and clarity - only this, with no 'signs' and no remainders, meaning there is really no 'one' who experiences the vivid luminosity arising simultaneously with its empty qualities.

[Aaron]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you, but when does Zen tell you to think?

 

A lot of Zen schools have you just go through the motions of performing mundane tasks repetitively. Do mindless things "mindfully" (with the focus on the task, not yourself). Where zoning out is like being in the zone. Engage the mind with a huatou (before thought) to disengage from the mind. The whole point of these various exercises being to lose yourself in the moment/act to induce an "out-of-self experience" of nonduality.

 

There's no thinking required in Zen. In fact, the whole school aims at discouraging it in favor of wordless transmission and direct experience..

 

Hello Vortex,

 

Zen tells you to think when you are given a koan. It is through paradox that realization comes. It is through confusion that clarity arrives. There are many different schools of Zen, so not all schools practice kaons, but they do all use the same method for achieving clarify.

 

On another level, unless one is sent to a monastery at a young age, something must happen for someone to desire to begin their practice. Sometimes that comes from a general knowledge of the philosophy. One becomes aware of the philosophy and decides that it is something that they want to practice. After deciding to practice, one must give up the desire to practice in order to practice. Essentially one must understand the need to not have a need, which only occurs through contemplation (i.e. thought.)

 

So yes, the practice of Zen is intended to help someone behave on an intuitive level, to exist in the moment free from distraction, but ultimately this cannot be achieved without first contemplating that need.

 

I hope that answers the question.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

so true. today, so busy busy busy, I will post Maslow's characteristics of a self actualized (enlightened?) person sometime later for an alternative perspective.

 

I find describing or fully knowing the qualities is like nailing jello to the wall. A bit difficult. It might be easier to describe what is not than what is so. Kinda like describing the Tao.

 

I remember saying, "many, many, many books about Buddhism" at one time, is that a reference to that comment in the Nature of Self Thread? No offense, but this seems to be a thread started at my expense. In fact it seems that you're referencing my past thread on the Nature of Tao as well, when you say, "kinda like describing the Tao." I'm sure you think this is clever, but I find it quite childish. I would suggest if you have issues with me, rather than attack me in an open thread, that you message me regarding those issues. In the end what does diminishing me actually do for you?

 

Aaron

Edited May 3, 2011 by Twinner

[ShaktiMama]

I remember saying, "many, many, many books about Buddhism" at one time, is that a reference to that comment in the Nature of Self Thread? No offense, but this seems to be a thread started at my expense. In fact it seems that you're referencing my past thread on the Nature of Tao as well, when you say, "kinda like describing the Tao." I'm sure you think this is clever, but I find it quite childish. I would suggest if you have issues with me, rather than attack me in an open thread, that you message me regarding those issues. In the end what does diminishing me actually do for you?

 

Aaron

 

 

My apologies but I don't think I have ever read a thread started by you.

 

The attack and diminishment you feel is in your own mind.

 

I work 40+ hours a week as a case manager, am an interfaith minister of a global church where I actively teach, broadcast programs, lead meditations and hold healing sessions; run a busy seminar and retreat business, run a global support network for kundalini survivors. I am a counselor and adviser to advanced practitioners on the spiritual path. I DONT have time to attack people. It's a waste of my chi and time. I must use my time and chi in a most efficient manner or my schedule will kill me.

 

Being evil and mean is such an inefficient waste of chi. Being in gratitude and being of service raises one's spiritual energy immediately. It's an obvious choice for me.

 

Be of peace.

 

s

 

I just wanted to add a partial CV so you don't think I am making it up. Non of the websites are up to date. Way to busy to do so.

 

http://www.kundaliniawakening.com/who-we-are.html

Edited May 3, 2011 by ShaktiMama

[Aaron]

My apologies but I don't think I have ever read a thread started by you.

 

The attack and diminishment you feel is in your own mind.

 

I work 40+ hours a week as a case manager, am an interfaith minister of a global church where I actively teach, broadcast programs, lead meditations and hold healing sessions; run a busy seminar and retreat business, run a global support network for kundalini survivors. I am a counselor and adviser to advanced practitioners on the spiritual path. I DONT have time to attack people. It's a waste of my chi and time. I must use my time and chi in a most efficient manner or my schedule will kill me.

 

Being evil and mean is such an inefficient waste of chi. Being in gratitude and being of service raises one's spiritual energy immediately. It's an obvious choice for me.

 

Be of peace.

 

s

 

I just wanted to add a partial CV so you don't think I am making it up. Non of the websites are up to date. Way to busy to do so.

 

http://www.kundaliniawakening.com/who-we-are.html

 

Hello Shaktimama,

 

Obviously this was just a misunderstanding. If you say it was a coincidence then I'm sure it must have been.

 

Aaron

Edited May 3, 2011 by Twinner