taoist lovemaking and karezza

[Non]

Is there a difference besides the methods in the overall effects of these two approaches to sexual intercourse?

 

Taoist lovemaking I'm referring to here are the methods of Dr. Lin and Jolan Chang vs Karezza from Marnia Robinson and Neotantrism by Diane Richardson. Marnia seems to think some of the Taoist methods are like Tantric non-ejaculatory orgasm methods which are still not beyond the dopamine cycle and some of the post-orgasmic feelings of satiation, depletion, irritability, habituation, etc.

 

As for Mantak Chia, I think she was referring to Mantak Chia's methods of taoist lovemaking, as the teachings were quite different from Karezza.

 

Also: she generally suggests women do not go for the orgasm as she also gets post-orgasmic syndrome. It's probably less than the males, and they can recover quite a bit faster or more but still some PO effects are present.

 

I should actually say overt orgasm as she still thinks there is a "valley orgasm" possible in Karezza which is unlike normal orgasm so she prefers not to use the term orgasm because it signifies an effortful activity which is not what Karezza is.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Non

[Non]

I'm also concerned about the fact that it seems all beginnings of relationships are still mostly based on the primitive 'fertilization program' that Marnia talks about.. and is still concerned with such neurochemicals as adrenaline and dopamine and not about oxytocin at all. I guess I'd like to think relationships can form through bonds that utilize oxytocin as a foundation but, in most cases it's not. GIrls will always be attracted to the "bad men", crave thrills, always want to fool around and disregard any man who attempts to be serious and express himself in all honesty while girls think Love is a joke, and foolishness, intending to break hearts because they've accepted and pushed onto others that "'love' is harsh/brutal" and it requires aggression in the form of socially acceptable forms of violence and torture. and etc. etc. etc.

 

All forms of regular sex are just based on the survival program which cares nothing about bonds, and only about quantity, not quality.

[Non]

Ultimately though men suffer perhaps the most because women are increasingly seeing men as being feminine because they are being honest and expressing themselves/being themselves while women see "love" as just a game, sex as a game, that men are here to suffer at the drop of a hat on the woman's fault because "she was not turned on" by him having to Be "the Best", Be the Most Brutal, or simply Being "on Top", etc. all she has to do is sit there and look pretty.. which women naturally are!

 

Women will increasingly look for more more more, and never be satisfied and men just get what they can.

 

People like to think their relationships are pure, and that they're pure but then not know what "turns them on", and is the basis of their *initial* attraction. It is not pure, it is in most cases selfish, and brutal if one were to see what's going on, altho natural.

 

When it comes to intial attraction, unless she's knowledgable, any bonding based interaction will always be overrided against it by her primitive 'fertilization mating program' that is BASED ON NOTHING BUT FEAR AND DRAMA. Nothing but, nothing more than FEAR AND DRAMA. With as MANY guys as they have access to, any single woman, no matter her looks, her personality, simply because they have access to so many guys, and who DOG HER, she has no choice but to give in to the temptation.

 

Because usually TRUE bonding comes AFTER the initial attraction and she is ALWAYS being bombarded with primitive fertilization mating signals.

 

A woman and especially young, will never get to realize the fullness of taoist based sexuality or karezza simply because she's having too much fun with herself on the 'normal fertilization based mating program' at the mercy though of the many men who would die at her feet.

 

The myth that older women are better is just false too. Old and young, women are still slaves to their mammalian brain.

 

They're always on a hamster wheel of guys and cannot stop running in circles to look outside and just observe, or even see that there's life existing beyond. Too much "fun" in the form of short term thrills which she never runs out of, so who needs to think in long term? Or who needs to think in any term?

 

And too busy mocking men and criticizing them as being "unmanly" when they simple express themselves and are being honest about the sacredness of their interaction, because they realize that the "normal fertilization based mating program" has simply no concern for goodness in any form.

 

In fact it is even antagonist to anything truly good or truly life affirming.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Non

[markern]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18254-tantra-cultivating-sexual-energy/page__st__16

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18241-suppression-and-repression-of-sexuality/page__st__80

 

http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/lao_tzu_tai_chi_of_sexual_transcendance

 

Read these threads. In teh first I have a looong post that shed some light on this. Most of it you already know but I think there might be some stuff in there you will find interesting.

 

IN thread two Seth Ananda has a post that shed light on how you can have ejaculatory sex without energy loss (and presumably dopamine rolercoaster).

 

In the third you can see paralels between taoist approaches and the other ones. THere are one or two more threads on reunting.info about Lao Tsu and neotaoism/neotantra that argue his approach matches karezza quite well.

 

 

 

 

Consdier the fact Non that the most masculine and testosterone driven men are used only for casual sex and are not considred relationship material. Women choose men that have more feminine feutures for relationships because they will bond better and stay faithfull (better oxytocin rpoducation abilities and oxytocin levels to begin with) and because they will be better fathers and better partners because of their ability to love and care. This is SCIENTIFIC FACT. Women still want a large part of masculinity but they REQUIRE a fair chuk of love/empathy ability to enter a relationship with a man.

 

Also consider the fact that the need for strength in a man for a woman is based on her entirely legitimate need for protection for herself and her baby. If she did not priorotze strength she would DIE in a harsher environment than ours. THrougout most of history this has been the case and so these are the genes woman are carying and there is nothing really to be done about that core fact. So womens need for male strength is totally legitimate and stems for her desire for her BABY to stay safe and survive and grow up. If she chooses a man that is too weak and only knows how to care and love she only gets help with what she already is capablle of doing herself. She needs someone that is able to provide both some protective strength and some masculine abilites such as self assertiveness, ability to be stoic and logical in emotional circumstances, ability to look for soloutions rather than focus on empathy etc. This is because she lacks those types of abilites and togheter they make a stronger and balanced union by combining their oposite abillites. So a man that can only bring femininity or is too weak can not give her anything she needs he would actually just become a burden in the way a child is. She is not able to protect her man but needs this protection from a man. So this is why at the bottom, as a base of atttraction you need some degree of strength to apeal to her. Built on top of that qualitites such as love and care become important and a relationship can be built focusing on that but within a yin yang dynamic where the woman provides a more feminine type of love and care and the man a more masculine type of love and care. Some of this can be harsh but it is actually fair an understandable. The women that chose otehrwise died and did not have their genes carried on and so are not arround today.

 

Througout history it has been the case that men have had to prove themselves to a larger degree than women in order to find a mate but the flipside of that for women has always been that there is very little she can do to increase her attractiveness, her possibility of choosing how her life becomes has alkmost always been small or non excistant, she has had little ability to protect herself, she has also historically done more work than then man, she has aslo historically been looked down upon and had her self esteem diminished by cultural perceptions of women being second rate.

 

THe strength required though have little resemblance to teh violent stuff you are talking about. THe average joe that is not very dominant or strong or aggressive do get women. Almost everyone does. Furthermore most women do not have many sex partners. I ahve recently seen some statistics and there is a fair number who remain virgins untill marriage, a alrge number who only have two, three maybe six boyfriends untill they marry and a large chunk of women whi ahve a few boyfriend and maybe one or two or three casual encounters. MOst of these womean date normal nice guys. THe women who date teh alpha player types generally have A LOT of partners and so make up most of the alphas sex partners. THis means few women actually have much sex or relationships to guys that even resemble what you are talking about.

Edited May 3, 2011 by markern

[Non]

Even in Marnia's book it seemed towards the end that she gives in to her animal side... in the belief that there is nothing sacred about life, sex, relationships, no love, just pure lust/fear/adrenaline.

 

Women just think they are meant to be devious, always will be devious, and cannot stay in one place, are complately chaotic and inconsistent, and illogical, etc. that relationships are always heartbreaking. At least for the men they're heartbreaking... a woman ALWAYS gets sex and that's all she needs to feel short term pleasure... and she gets another one in no time.

[markern]

Even in Marnia's book it seemed towards the end that she gives in to her animal side... in the belief that there is nothing sacred about life, sex, relationships, no love, just pure lust/fear/adrenaline.

 

Women just think they are meant to be devious, always will be devious, and cannot stay in one place, are complately chaotic and inconsistent, and illogical, etc. that relationships are always heartbreaking. At least for the men they're heartbreaking... a woman ALWAYS gets sex and that's all she needs to feel short term pleasure... and she gets another one in no time.

 

Statistically men and women are about equally happy. FOr every benefit a woman has a man has another.

[Non]

She needs someone that is able to provide both some protective strength and some masculine abilites such as self assertiveness, ability to be stoic and logical in emotional circumstances, ability to look for soloutions rather than focus on empathy etc.

 

For what tho? She doesn't want babies. No woman these days usually want babies. Even if so it's not these 'manly men' that will be taking care of it now is it? No, the other PEASANT SLAVE "WEAKLINGS" DO ALL THE DAMN WORK and of suffering with the cuckold wife.

 

These men would not even care for her if she wasn't witholding the very basic thing they need to live a balanced and healthy live: interaction/sex/bonding etc.

 

But they take what they can get.

 

Women don't want for children don't care: you know how many women these days are in their 30s and 40s still dont want a child, how many women my age even say that to have children nowadays is "bringing someone into this fucked up world" Which THEY Bred into this world.

 

Even if they dont say this, they would say IT'S TOO MUCH WORK. I WANT TO HAVE FUN, HAVE SEX AND FOOL AROUND. I HATE BABIES.

 

You know 99 % of women are actually REPULSED by male honesty, by consistency, by genuine caring, and bonding, by fealty. It's not "cool" it's not "hip" it's "immature" it's "foolishness" it's "feminine/wimpy", etc. etc. etc. WHY do they act this way? In direct opposition to anything good. How many times do you hear of men being BRUTALLY heartbroken. I mean brutally......... not as much as the women though.. they can get sex fine and that's all they need. because this program really IS antagonistic to anything good. So much so that it seems suspicious at the consistency of total obliviousness that women have to anything logical in the behavior and the total heartbreak. Women get tattoos that spell HEARTBREAKER. THey joke around and tease. It's not "random" by any means, it seeks to destroy any sense of genuine nurturing care, and "love" because "nature is so stupid" or at least that's what they have ingrained into their heads.. Because their fertilization mating program which is based on quantity not quality (which is very fuckin stupid, what is better 20,000 stupid fucks that feel good or GOSH ONE supreme being THAT ALSO FEELS GOOD?) And they can't control it because they are always being bombarded by temptation, heck they have no knowing of anything else because they cannot look beyond themselves or what's in front of them.

 

Makern: I dont believe women have much of an excuse to act this way. Not any of the "evolutionary theories": by evolution it's supposed to seek the best possible circumstance and you do NOT see that anywhere. You see what "seems" the best, NOT WHAT IS.

 

True there is evolutionary psychology but not all of what's touted as evo psych really is psychology. You're probably making excuses though because you read into pick up artist material which tells you to be bad and aggressive and uncaring and pretentiously dominant in all situations, etc and that's all "evo psych". Most of the time these PUAs tend to be unbalanced in their approach and are "too yang" if that's a way to explain it... but women eat it up because well... and I'm sorry to say this, I'm frustrated: quite frankly - WHAT THE FUCK DO THEY KNOW!? I mean come on. Jeez. It's nothing but torture. NOTHING but torture. NOTHING but impurity. NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING BUT TRUE HELL, though some are just unaware. And it KILLS... it MURDERS though nobody sees it! Men are being fuckin martyrs all the time, and that's all they are. Even when there's no reason to be.

 

She has not one ounce of care or knowing for the suffering of men.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Non

[Non]

Statistically men and women are about equally happy. FOr every benefit a woman has a man has another.

 

I think those statistics are BS.

[Jetsun]

[Non]

 

yea that's funny and all but when I'm feeling the way I do when I write about this stuff and how I feel about what I type is just insane and hurt.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think those statistics are BS.

 

As with all of your other threads, the same advice that has been given time and time and time again must be given- check your fundamental assumptions and beliefs, find out where they are coming from, and address THOSE first.

 

Every time you hear about a hot girl having sex with some bad boy, it's "see? I told you so!"

 

And every time someone points out contrary evidence, you either ignore it, or go "that's not even true, I can't believe it!"

 

 

So how about you actually start working on yourself- where are you getting these ideas, what experiences have you had which are telling you this? How many times have you approached women? How do you feel about yourself- your personality, your body, your social skills, etc etc etc?

[Seth Ananda]

As with all of your other threads, the same advice that has been given time and time and time again must be given- check your fundamental assumptions and beliefs, find out where they are coming from, and address THOSE first.

 

Every time you hear about a hot girl having sex with some bad boy, it's "see? I told you so!"

 

And every time someone points out contrary evidence, you either ignore it, or go "that's not even true, I can't believe it!"

 

 

So how about you actually start working on yourself- where are you getting these ideas, what experiences have you had which are telling you this? How many times have you approached women? How do you feel about yourself- your personality, your body, your social skills, etc etc etc?

Superb! Listen to Sloppy! Seriously...

[Non]

So how about you actually start working on yourself- where are you getting these ideas, what experiences have you had which are telling you this? How many times have you approached women? How do you feel about yourself- your personality, your body, your social skills, etc etc etc?

 

I ask myself these questions on a daily basis. There is no working around it. It's all the same.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Non

[Sloppy Zhang]

I ask myself these questions on a daily basis. There is no working around it. It's all the same.

 

And what are the answers?

[Non]

And what are the answers?

 

bitchez is bitchez what more can you expect? I told you it's the same thing I talk about all the time. Yea I am improving myself, yea, but who cares? It's never enough for hoes. Never enough for any girl. They are attached.

 

I can spend aeons trying to become "perfect" in her eyes: it's never going to happen though. It's impossible. Perfectly impossible.

 

It's ok for her to be attached, but not for a guy? It's ok for her to cheat, but not him? It's ok for her to fuck around but not him?

 

Even so, not all men fuck around.

 

 

See this guy can at least say F-you because he's rich now. He's also young enough to enjoy life and enjoy young women. As for the other guys who try hard and they're not rich: they get nothing but pain and suffering.

 

See... a person also can spend aeons meditating to get over this shit, and only at the last minute achieve enlightenment and get the fuck up out this place. it would happen sooner if the energetic practices could help but that includes having a partner in dual cultivation: Even the Buddha said "Enlightenment can found in a woman's vagina".

 

I'm dead fuckin serious.

 

Of course nothing in excess, but he was not talking about excess. Excess is all that fuckin life-long celibacy going on.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Non

[Non]

Superb! Listen to Sloppy! Seriously...

 

and as soon as the "PIMP" Seth Ananda shows up everyone goes crazy because he knows so much right?

 

So why are you looking down and your hair in your pic is there any subliminal message going on there?

Edited May 4, 2011 by Non

[Sloppy Zhang]

bitchez is bitchez what more can you expect? I told you it's the same thing I talk about all the time. Yea I am improving myself, yea, but who cares? It's never enough for hoes. Never enough for any girl. They are attached.

 

I can spend aeons trying to become "perfect" in her eyes: it's never going to happen though. It's impossible. Perfectly impossible.

 

Well here is part of the problem- seems like you've had some bad experiences with a couple of women. Feeling a bit inadequate?

 

So everything you do you are not only judging yourself, but you are judging yourself by an impossible, unrealistic, fictitious standard.

 

She probably judges all guys by some ridiculous standards- none of them are fit enough, none of them are rich enough, none of them are nice enough. Just like all guys have probably judged HER all of HER life- not sexy enough, not willing enough, too clingy, etc etc etc.

 

Not only that, but you, her, and everybody else carry that memory with them, blow it out of proportion, and allow those mental shadows to judge everything you do in life which will NEVER be good enough.

 

And so I ask you- WHY????

 

WHY are you living life for other people?

 

WHY do you carry those people with you LONG after they leave your physical life?

 

WHY do you let these disembodied ghosts judge and control a life that they have no part in?

 

LET THEM GO!

 

It's ok for her to be attached, but not for a guy? It's ok for her to cheat, but not him? It's ok for her to fuck around but not him?

 

Really? Because I'm sure a lot of fuss has been made about how it's the opposite in the world- if a guy fucks a bunch of women, he's a man. If a woman fucks a bunch of guys, she's a whore.

 

Even so, not all men fuck around.

 

Nor do all women.

 

See this guy can at least say F-you because he's rich now. He's also young enough to enjoy life and enjoy young women.

 

Hugh Hefner is an old guy who most people generally agree is ugly as fuck (even as a young man, he looked like and old man, or so I hear). Yet he enjoys young women. Age don't have nothing to do with it, if your goal in life is to fuck a bunch of bimbos for no reason other than that you can. But you don't want that, you've said so in the past, so why are you still attached to this idea?

 

See... a person also can spend aeons meditating to get over this shit, and only at the last minute achieve enlightenment and get the fuck up out this place.

 

So start practicing something that will help you resolve these issues NOW, rather than after aeons. Because if you get bogged down in how bad you feel about yourself, enlightenment will never happen, methinks.

 

it would happen sooner if the energetic practices could help but that includes having a partner in dual cultivation

 

Plenty of energetic practices don't involve dual cultivation. Consult the quote from Arthur Ashe in my sig.

 

Even the Buddha said "Enlightenment can found in a woman's vagina".

 

Just because something CAN be the case doesn't mean it will, nor does it mean that you won't get sidetracked and set further back.

 

and as soon as the "PIMP" Seth Ananda shows up everyone goes crazy because he knows so much right?

 

So why are you looking down and your hair in your pic is there any subliminal message going on there?

 

He's looking at the Scrabble board right in front of him, about to get a triple word score against the wonderfully intelligent woman with whom he is playing.

 

What were YOU thinking of????

 

(New game idea: what IS Seth looking at???? )

Edited May 4, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[markern]

It's ok for her to cheat, but not him? It's ok for her to fuck around but not him?

 

Even so, not all men fuck around.

 

 

 

 

 

This is absolutely false. I have never even heard the claim that it is OK for women to cheat but not for men. What I HAVE heard many times is the claim that it is OK for men to cheat but not OK for women. In several cultures today, and in many (most?) cultures throughout history, the view has been that it is either OK for men to cheat or at least much less of a problem than if the woman cheats.

 

The fact that you have managed to start believing the view in this society is that it is more OK for women to cheat says a lot about how little objectivity there are in your views.

[Non]

This is absolutely false. I have never even heard the claim that it is OK for women to cheat but not for men. What I HAVE heard many times is the claim that it is OK for men to cheat but not OK for women. In several cultures today, and in many (most?) cultures throughout history, the view has been that it is either OK for men to cheat or at least much less of a problem than if the woman cheats.

 

The fact that you have managed to start believing the view in this society is that it is more OK for women to cheat says a lot about how little objectivity there are in your views.

 

Actually, the prob in perception is this: women use the excuse that since they believe all men cheat and that it's "empirically" ok for men to cheat that she can cheat. Thus it makes it OK but not ok for the man because usually that woman would not want a man to cheat on her.

 

Well maybe some don't care.

 

This goes for pretty much any argument that : "because ALL guys do it I can" even though not ALL men do this, only SOME.

 

OK this goes for everyone: there's no way you can beat around the bush and blame me for ALL of what women do.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Non

[markern]

Actually, the prob in perception is this: women use the excuse that since they believe all men cheat and that it's "empirically" ok for men to cheat that she can cheat. Thus it makes it OK but not ok for the man because usually that woman would not want a man to cheat on her.

 

Well maybe some don't care.

 

This goes for pretty much any argument that : "because ALL guys do it I can" even though not ALL men do this, only SOME.

 

OK this goes for everyone: there's no way you can beat around the bush and blame me for ALL of what women do.

 

THis makes absolutely no sense. You have got to stop with the women hating. It is just stupid and irrational.

[Maddie]

I found this very interesting. This Taoist monk talks about relationships. What I found particuarly interesting was where he said the key is not to look outside yourself for the answer, but to develop yourself, and your own energy, and that will naturally attract the right person for you when your ready with out trying too hard. I must admit I have not been doing this lol, but it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Non]

I found this very interesting. This Taoist monk talks about relationships. What I found particuarly interesting was where he said the key is not to look outside yourself for the answer, but to develop yourself, and your own energy, and that will naturally attract the right person for you when your ready with out trying too hard. I must admit I have not been doing this lol, but it makes a lot of sense.

 

 

Not having seen the video.. I was thinknig about that this morning though at work.

 

So.. if I don't find a mate in this lifetime that fits me... just continue and maybe in another life I can find one that's right for me. I don't find one simply because: i'm different. I'm on the path of spirituality and that's highly uncommon and people actually look at you like you're crazy, etc. it would take a bit of game playing to find one. Conformity, lust, acheiving greatness etc.

 

I find it hard to be this way. I also thought about Greatness... I've been inhibiting my growth into being "Great" and acheiving Greatness because of the pressure to be 'absolutely perfect' which is definitely impossible. One can be great but COME ON appreciate the fact that it took quite a bit of damn effort, and so what if I'm not perfect?!

 

So yes... the last thing I wanted to say.. is that.. relationships is hard. You're not working with someone/thing you exert your will/force on. No... it's influence sure but it does not really seem to depend so much on you as much as it depends on the other person's acceptance of you... or so it seems. It seems.

 

But again.. I guess I'll stick to solo cultivation then.. and then maybe in another life when it's come I can either create one or by magic of synchronicity or even chemistry I can attract a partner and then we can move on to the next level.

[Non]

THis makes absolutely no sense. You have got to stop with the women hating. It is just stupid and irrational.

 

Not irrational or stupid sorry.. but maybe you don't understand it or make sense of it.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Non

[Maddie]

Not having seen the video.. I was thinknig about that this morning though at work.

 

So.. if I don't find a mate in this lifetime that fits me... just continue and maybe in another life I can find one that's right for me. I don't find one simply because: i'm different. I'm on the path of spirituality and that's highly uncommon and people actually look at you like you're crazy, etc. it would take a bit of game playing to find one. Conformity, lust, acheiving greatness etc.

 

I find it hard to be this way. I also thought about Greatness... I've been inhibiting my growth into being "Great" and acheiving Greatness because of the pressure to be 'absolutely perfect' which is definitely impossible. One can be great but COME ON appreciate the fact that it took quite a bit of damn effort, and so what if I'm not perfect?!

 

So yes... the last thing I wanted to say.. is that.. relationships is hard. You're not working with someone/thing you exert your will/force on. No... it's influence sure but it does not really seem to depend so much on you as much as it depends on the other person's acceptance of you... or so it seems. It seems.

 

But again.. I guess I'll stick to solo cultivation then.. and then maybe in another life when it's come I can either create one or by magic of synchronicity or even chemistry I can attract a partner and then we can move on to the next level.

 

 

Well I didn't exactely mean that you can never get to the point in this life time. What I did mean was that if you focus now on accepting yourself, loving yourself, valuing yourself, then after a few months, years, ect... you will naturally feel good about yourself, and when you feel good about yourself then that draws other people in to feel good about you too.

 

I guess its like Wuji, doing with out doing. All the dating and relationship advice we get here in the west is usually outward focused and effort based. You are taught techniques to go out and find/get someone else. What this monk was saying I think was that the Taoist/Wuji way is to not focus on finding someone else, but rather to focus on finding yourself. Then once you have found yourself, others will just natrually be drawn to you with out you having to go out and get them.

 

So I guess how this would translate to us guys is to now worry about how to pick up chicks, or why girls are this way or that way... no. The focus is to find out who we really are, to accept ourselves, and then just like air flows into our lungs when we breathe, the right people for relationships will flow into our lives naturally, with out trying so hard.

 

p.s. I think this even is very syncranistic with my recent work on my heart and lungs. For the past almost week now I've really done no other form of Qigong other than the heart and lung inner smile/healing sounds. Its been a very eye opening experience.

Edited May 5, 2011 by dmattwads

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack